A little of both to be honest. On the one hand it's a piece of speculative fiction with an ungrounded shift in social structure, it's almost certainly not trying to imply anything. But the message is uncomfortably close to a real one some less coherent feminists try to claim, in that whenever a man does anything better than a woman it's because of male oppression, and whenever a man does anything worse than a woman it's because he's an inferior man. If you leave your reasoning blank it's to easy for people to assume there isn't one and that sadly parallels this argument.thaluikhain said:
Poll: Would you play a game with feminist overtones?
- Thread starter James Joseph Emerald
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I'd call this a post-feminist game myself. But regardless of that quibble, I feel that the best way to push feminism is to present the world it strives for as normal, to be the background rather than the foreground. It's a lot more appealing to show men as inherently equal partners rather than as vitriolic obstacles to be overcome.DarkRyter said:
It depends on what you mean by feminist. It sadly sounds a bit like you have just switched around stereotypical male and female personality types which is not feminist.
If it goes down the men=bad women=good, men are patriarchal oppressors and women heroic victims line, it deserves to be ridiculed.
Anyway, I believe we already have some 'feminist' games out there. By the Wikipedia definition, Feminism is about equality between genders. Try Dragon Age: women are treated no differently than men with regards to military, nobility etc. When the king dies, the queen stays the queen.
I appreciated this game because it did all of this without parading it. That is my biggest problem with Feminist content. So often if there is a strong female character she will be paraded about with everybody shouting "Look at how strong and independent she is". It becomes about feminism, and let's be honest feminism is not interesting. Stories and characters are interesting.
If it goes down the men=bad women=good, men are patriarchal oppressors and women heroic victims line, it deserves to be ridiculed.
Anyway, I believe we already have some 'feminist' games out there. By the Wikipedia definition, Feminism is about equality between genders. Try Dragon Age: women are treated no differently than men with regards to military, nobility etc. When the king dies, the queen stays the queen.
I appreciated this game because it did all of this without parading it. That is my biggest problem with Feminist content. So often if there is a strong female character she will be paraded about with everybody shouting "Look at how strong and independent she is". It becomes about feminism, and let's be honest feminism is not interesting. Stories and characters are interesting.
Depends on the wave of feminism we're talking about and the level of sophistication involved.
I would not, for instance, be on board with a "what if genders were switched!" idea of "feminism" (sorry).
I would not, for instance, be on board with a "what if genders were switched!" idea of "feminism" (sorry).
If you're saying that feminism is less about giving to men than it is to women, you're right. Feminism is about bringing the rights and opportunities of women up to the point at which they are equal to the rights and opportunities of men. It is not about promoting or diminishing male rights; the nature of feminism is to achieve female equality. It's what distinguishes feminism from egalitarianism, but it does not mean that feminism promotes female superiority. Superiority is not equality.Lazier Than Thou said:
The next part of the Wiki intro says this:
I was about to write about how men's rights are clearly lacking in some areas too, and then I suddenly realised what you're saying. If you're an egalitarian, there's no point in being a feminist as well because you already uphold those beliefs. Whereas if you're a feminist, you believe in equality for women, but not necessarily for men, which makes it one-sided. So if you truly claimed to want equality, you'd call yourself an egalitarian, not a feminist.
If this is what you're saying, then I agree. Damn, I hate it when I change my viewpoint halfway through writing a post. =P
I'll echo some of the arguments I saw earlier in the thread: Will I have fun? Will the characters be rounded, imaginative and interesting? Will it be 'Men and women are equal' or will it be matriarchy a-go-go? Hell, that could be entertaining as well; I'm currently reading the Dark Elf trilogy, and that fits all the prior points, and I'm having a fucking blast. I'll admit to giggling a bit at the over-the-top male discriminaton in the drow society, although it IS well-explained and done in a...eh.."justified" manner.
But really, try to avoid being a feminazi, and it'll likely be alright.
But really, try to avoid being a feminazi, and it'll likely be alright.
Well, when people speak of wanting equality, they want to be equal to those who have more than them, not sharing what they have with those that have less.Fluffles said:
Secondly, it's not always easy to recognise inequalities if you yourself are benefitting from them, and if you don't (or won't) see the inequalities, you are naturally going to feel threatened by people wanting to correct them. A useful first step in demonising people looking for solutions is denying that there is a problem, after all.
You hit my point precisely. Thank you for having the courage to admit your recognition. Precious few people are honest enough to admit such a thing.MidnightCat said:
Except that right now men are unquestionably higher on the sociopolitical and economic ladder than women, ergo any advocacy of equality between the sexes must focus on the betterment of womens' rights because they are, at this point, the disadvantaged group. It's not a hard concept to get.Lazier Than Thou said:
Just a tip. If you're going to try and wrangle feminist themes, do some research into "intersectionality" before hand. It's a phenomenally important idea to come out of the third-wave feminist movement in consort with queer and other movements after a lot of well-deserved criticism of the somewhat narrow perspective taken previously. The basic premise is that there are many forms of privilege and discrimination which work together to generate inequality. Gender is just one of these. There's also ethnicity, sexuality, ability, age, nationality, class etc. all of which privilege some and disadvantage others.James Joseph Emerald said:
Personally I'd be delighted to see a game in which these issues were considered. However, you're going to find it a lot of work to do the ideas justice and give nuance so that you don't wind up with flat characters who could be best replaced with a protest sign. Be careful, the best tools for education are often subtle.
As mentioned by John Funk above, women are the disadvantaged group, and as such, efforts to bring about gender equality focus on bringing them up to male standards. [small]You could bring about equality by oppressing everyone equally, I guess, though.[/small] In any case, it's been long recognised that for this to happen, arbitrary gender roles and double standards in general will have to be abolished, not just those directly targeting women.Xaio30 said:
And/or, the word sounded catchy way back then and it stuck. The Middle East isn't to the east of me, but we all know what I mean when I say "The Middle East".
I'd second that. Lack of attention to these sorts of things is a common accusation feminists make of people claiming to be feminist.Labyrinth said:
On the other hand, this is because it does tend to complicate things, and all sorts of problems crop up if you try examining something from many different PoVs at once...unfortunately it's generally the best way to understand it.
[small]Also, I know how to spell and pronounce "patriarchy", not so sure about "kyriarchy"[/small]