Poll: Wow...... Just wow......

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BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
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MarsAtlas said:
They shouldn't be making mountains out of molehills is what he's getting at.
It it still a stupid point. Molehills add up to mountains.
The writer intentionally has made multiple errors in regards to things like plot as well, because the point couldn't be made otherwise.
What in the hell does this sentence even mean.
The article is about how the truth is often twisted and disregarded in a lot of arguments. Much like what Anita Sarkeesian did with what I saw of her Videogame Tropes vs Women episode. I ended up only watching half of the episode because of how she disregarded events regarding Krystal, Peach, and Zelda that ran contradictory to her thesis.
That wasn't her point. Her point was to talk about the damsel in distress trope and its effects. All of those other events are ancillary. You would get the same damn thing on TVTropes.
I'm not saying that there are no sexist things regarding Bioshock Infinite, or any of the Star Fox, Mario, or Zelda games. However, a lot of people are either ignorant of examples that prove otherwise or are just plain ignoring those and being intellectually dishonest in propping up their arguments, because it weakens their case otherwise to acknowledge it.
Or they could not bring it up because it has no bearing on their actual point. That might be a possibility...
 

Sunrider

Add a beat to normality
Nov 16, 2009
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SanAndreasSmoke said:
My first thought -

"Aww shit, a BioShock Infinite article. I want to read this but I've avoided Infinite spoilers for too long to risk being foiled now."

Anyone care to assure me it's spoiler free or not? (Yes, I plan on playing the game soon. Probably next month after my friend finishes it.)
I don't know what anyone else has told you already, but I don't think you should read it. While it doesn't give away the story or anything, it does spoil the one thing I found the most enjoyable discovering the truth about. Maybe people won't agree with me about that, but personally, I think you should avoid it.
 

Dead Seerius

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Feb 4, 2012
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charge52 said:
SanAndreasSmoke said:
My first thought -

"Aww shit, a BioShock Infinite article. I want to read this but I've avoided Infinite spoilers for too long to risk being foiled now."

Anyone care to assure me it's spoiler free or not? (Yes, I plan on playing the game soon. Probably next month after my friend finishes it.)
It's not, while it doesn't spoil any of the major twists, it does still spoil some character stuff (how certain characters stories end etc.) and other important information.
Just as long as it doesn't spoil major twists, I'm good. Thanks for answering.

With that, I'm off to spectate another thrilling installment of sexism controversy in gaming! Wheee!

EDIT: After reading the comment above...Maybe not. Damn it I just need to play this game already.
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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Yeah, the article's heading does mention these are points that a feminist COULD attempt to bring up to criticize Infinite. It's not an opinion piece, it's conjecture. Badly-written conjecture, at that, that parodies the agenda of your average serious feminist.

I mean, come on. The Lutece twins, sexist by design?! That's not a valid argument in any shape or form! If anything, Rosalind Lutece should be praised for succeeding in quantum physics, in a decade where female professors and high-calibre scientists were still a rarity in the American academia! She's Robert's equal in every way that matters!

As for Elizabeth not fighting? That's because Irrational took notice of games that toyed with the idea of a constant companion. People don't want a friendly NPC getting in the way of their shootouts, and they don't want friendly NPCs in the way, period. Putting Liz aside simply solves that problem. Her gender never plays as a factor.

Then there's Liz being powerless without Booker. Well, yeah, seeing as the game introduces specific devices and circumstances that prevent Liz from using the full extent of her abilities, to the point of freeing herself from Monument Island. Once the proverbial leash is taken off, though... Believe you me, you get a very clear understanding of the fact that Liz, if sufficiently pushed and allowed to operate freely, needs nobody's help.

Daisy Fitzroy, huh? Her meeting Booker in any universe is incidental. She didn't need a "male" character, she needed a character who could take care of the dirty work. Enter mister DeWitt. It could've been anyone else - including a woman.

Finally, there's the notion of Booker being female. Last I checked, the Pinkertons weren't such staunch progressives as to hire women into their ranks, circa 1912...

So the writer essentially fails at providing any serious feminist with salient points. If anything, he's trolling.
 

Lonewolfm16

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Feb 27, 2012
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ninjaRiv said:
Well, it's clearly a joke. It suggests as much at the end. Well, it's more of a way for the writer to get attention.
Not so much a joke as satire... which he says at the begining when he insults Tropes vs Women and points out how easy fake arguments are to make.
 

Dead Seerius

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Feb 4, 2012
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MarsAtlas said:
SanAndreasSmoke said:
My first thought -

"Aww shit, a BioShock Infinite article. I want to read this but I've avoided Infinite spoilers for too long to risk being foiled now."

Anyone care to assure me it's spoiler free or not? (Yes, I plan on playing the game soon. Probably next month after my friend finishes it.)
I wouldn't read it, as it ruins certain character events and development. Its not spoiler-free, but I can explain it for you. The author actually distorts the events of the game to serve the point of the article. He makes many mistakes, intentionally, as if he played the game with a cursory glance, in describing a lot of what happens because thats how some people who make these similar arguments do - they disregard the actual context of what happens because they're either ignorant of what happens, or they just don't care about the truth, and are willing to lie if it helps support their claims.

An example is how the last point says that Booker not just could've, but should've, been female. He then goes on to say that there should be a character creator, and that players should be able to choose to play as a female. Anybody who has played the game will tell you that the idea of that would absolutely destroy the story, since Booker DeWitt, the player character, is an important character, with a history and personality relevant to the course of the story. Of course he knows that the idea of creating your character in Bioshock Infinite is absolutely absurd, and would outright ruin the plot, but people have made arguments for other games where your player-character isn't a blank slate as well, which is what the writer is trying to bring to light. I've heard some people say that in LA Noire, Red Dead Redemption, and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, should've had a character creator, and say that by not having it, and being forced to play a male character, is inherently sexist. Nevermind the fact that Cole Phelps, John Marston, and Adam Jensen are all characters with an important history, so making a blank slate character in those games, like you would in a The Elder Scrolls game, would damage if not outright ruin one if not many of the overarching plots. Its the idea of having a specific character with a specific history and specific personality developing in a certain way as the story progresses, being completely interchangable with yourself just for the sake of being able to play the game as a female character - ruining the story for the illusion of equality.
Oh okay. So it's more of a satire then? In that case I think I'll view it after all.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree that if any of those games offered character customization they would greatly suffer for it in terms of story.
Some games are meant for character customization (RPGs). Others are not.
 

BreakfastMan

Scandinavian Jawbreaker
Jul 22, 2010
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MarsAtlas said:
BreakfastMan said:
MarsAtlas said:
They shouldn't be making mountains out of molehills is what he's getting at.
It it still a stupid point. Molehills add up to mountains.
If so, then they shouldn't be targeting individuals games that aren't guilty of being extremely sexist, but rather the things causing it in the first place.
You can do both, and you can especially use instances of the former to comment on the later. See: Ben Kochera's article on Dragon's Crown. Even minor stuff has consequences. To quote Plinket: "You might not have noticed it, but your brain did".

What in the hell does this sentence even mean.
The writer made mistakes in the five "facts" that a person only would if they were examining Bioshock Infinite from the preconception that the game is already sexist, or if the person held no regard for the truth and distorted the events to suit their agenda. This happens. This pervaded Anita Sarkeesian's Videogame Tropes vs Women video, which is why I stopped watching halfway - she's either willfully ignorant, intellectually dishonest, or varying degrees of both. Just like somebody who would claim that Bioshock Infinte not just could, but should have you playing as a female character, and should even have create a character, even though that would destroy a character central to the plot, and thus the entire story.
You really shouldn't have stopped watching Anita's video halfway through, because at the end she explained that in her next video she would be tackling the ways games subvert and comment on the Damsels in Distress trope.
Or they could not bring it up because it has no bearing on their actual point. That might be a possibility...
It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Suppose this. I say to you, "Your mother died today". Technically, she did, but thanks to out modern technology, she was able to be revived by emergency responders and is recovering in the hospital in stable condition. Are you really going to say that if I told you "your mother died today" and only "your mother died today", with none of the other information, that I was being honest with you?
Yes. Because my mother did die today. That is a completely valid statement, especially if your point was to convey to me that my mother died today.
 

FalloutJack

Bah weep grah nah neep ninny bom
Nov 20, 2008
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I'm about to declare msle sexism in gaming if these people don't cut it out. Not out of any need to prove a point mind you, but just to get them to shut up.
 

The_Blue_Rider

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Sep 4, 2009
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Oh god the line in the last paragraph was so funny

The heart-wrenching family bonds shown in the game would have equally worked with a female character in place of Booker, where she could be Elizabeth?s mother. Comstock would be female too (or that?s one hell of a baptism otherwise)

This little bit of satire is just a tad unnecessary though
 

LetalisK

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May 5, 2010
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That was a pretty shitty satirical piece. Though it did a nice job of showing how little attention people pay to things they read.
 

Stryc9

Elite Member
Nov 12, 2008
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Fucking hell. That was either written to purely generate hits for that site or by someone trying to write a joke article. There is no way anyone could be stupid enough to believe that a game that is set in the early 1900's would feature a female character in any role other than a support role.
 

orangeban

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Nov 27, 2009
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To be fair, Booker could have been male and you can talk about how this is indicative of an overall sexist trend in videogaming.
 

BNguyen

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Mar 10, 2009
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Okay,
point 1 - there were plenty of female enemies in the game, apparently the article writer was blinded by the gunfire
point 2 - apparently the article writer forgot that the Columbia scientists had the siphons to drain Elizabeth of her power to prevent her from escaping, reducing her to an ordinary person who can't do anything without a proper tool, notice I said 'person' and not 'woman'
point 3 - they aren't really twins - they were alternate genders to the same person from different universes
point 4 - Daisy already had a significant uprising in the starting world long before Booker stepped in, they just happened to cross over into a world where she's exploiting his death for her benefit - heck, she could have died and another person could have made her into a martyr
point 5 - for the time period, if Booker was a female (in the case of the multiverse he may very well be, the same as the Lutece twins), she wouldn't have had the same guilt trip motivation as the Booker we know - the whole Wounded Knee thing - and Comstock couldn't be female and still have the same "spiritual backing" and authority if he were a female - they came from a time period where men had most of the influence on the world and women were only just emerging as a force to be reckoned with.
Even though this game was complete fiction, it was set in a time period where many of the themes in the game are accurate - we can't just keep going around and say a game needs to be X, Y, and Z in order to be good, and if it has A, B, and C it can't be good at all or "it's sexist" because of A.
 

Auron

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Mar 28, 2009
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lol, awesome article, goes to prove how things can be easily distorted. I still remember when she slandered the Cyberpunk trailer on having future prostitutes being persecuted because of nothing(even though the trailer clearly states it's a maniac cyborg who just killed a dozen people or so.)
 

Hasido

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Jun 20, 2011
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I see that Poe's Law [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoesLaw] is still in effect here.

Go on about your business.
 

sumanoskae

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Dec 7, 2007
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First reaction: None of the above. These points are all either fallacious or factually incorrect, but I don't find the article slanderous, just illogical.

Upon further examination: Effective sarcasm is apparent to it's audience, that's why it's sarcastic and not just dishonest. If Devil's Advocate was your intention, then I'm afraid it wasn't very effective; many of the points you raised were simply not true, and the others either advocated for the arbitrary inclusion of females in the narrative, often at the cost of narrative coherence.

If you just intended to point out that these arguments are erroneous and short sighted, then I suppose you've made that apparent, but I don't think that anyone who would argue these things could be swayed by somebody pretending to agree with them.

Sarcasm works by using words to express more than their literal intention, it doesn't work when you simply imitate the subject.

So I suppose I see what you did there, I'm just not impressed by it.
 

spartan231490

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Jan 14, 2010
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My thoughts are that I am entirely too tired of reading stupid ass shit, that was one of the most obviously flawed arguments I've ever seen, and as a frequent internet user, that's saying something.