Poll: Yet another gun thread!

[Canid117]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

It is called the AK-101

I saw the XM109 on another thread-

-and frankly, a grenade-firing .50 cal seems pretty awesome. Yeah, I know it's probably heavy, a bit clunky, and probably isn't that cost-efficient, but its concept and appearance are ridiculously cool.

So... why would this make a good replacement for the M-16?

 

[atled3]

Frankly I don't see them ever replacing the M-16 until some great innovation like hand held laser weapons or something come along.

 

[blind_dead_mcjones]

Things that should be considered when choosing a weapon:
-Portability
-Ergonomics
-Weight
-Stopping Power
-Logistics (weapons using an already established round and magazine would make logistics much friendlier to the Military's gunnery sergeants.)
-Recoil
-Accuracy
-Durability
-Range
-Adaptability & Accessories
-Cost Per Unit
etc

i resent to the table the Steyr AUG (specifically the Australian made F88 version)

Portability - being a bullpup its already more portable than most rifles, and the barrel can be removed easily to make it more portable
Ergonomics - again comfortable to hold and use, though the bullpup design will make shooting around corners and firing left handed without taking it apart an issue, other than that the design is completely ambidextrous
Weight - at 3.6 kg with the standard rifle barrel its only 200 grams heavier than the M16A4
stopping power - about the same every other 5.56mm rifle
Logistics- uses the same 5.56mm round as the M16 however does not use the STANAG magazines, using 30 or 42 round translucent plastic one instead
recoil - low and manageable recoil
Accuracy - 60mm 5 round grouping at 50 meters
Durability - is fully functional even after being repeatedly run over by a 10 tonne truck, Fully operational in the most severe climates and field conditions for lengthy periods, a long serice life, can be disassembled and maintained without tools.
Range - 450-500 meters with standard rifle barrel
Adaptability and accessories - designed to be reassembled to accomodate left handed shooters, has its quick change barrel system, meaning it can be changed from a rifle to a carbine, smg or light support weapon/designated marksmens rifle by taking one barrel out and putting in a new one (the process for the AUG being insanely simple, by just twist the barrel 90 degrees using the secondary grip) can also have a rail instand of the scope/carrying handle, can also mount a grenade launcher and bayonet, already has a dual purpose foregrip that can either be flush with barrel or folded down to be vertical
cost per unit - not sure what that would be to be honest

 

[Srdjan]

Zastava M21, light, easy to operate Serbian AK47 modification, not to be confused with Vietnam era sniper rifle.

It's fairly accurate, good fire rate, and it's fucking cheap, I used it on several occasiones and I'm very satisfied.

 

[KaosuHamoni]

SIG SG 553, otherwise known as the .552 Commando's big brother, and replacement

I swear, if someone says "your only saying that because of CoD", I will kill you. =_=

Your only saying that because of Counter-Strike.

Please dont kill me

XD I've never played CSS

I know, I'm a philistine.

 

[Koeryn]

My vote would be for the Remmington ACR.

Spoiler

Isn't that essentially the Magpull Masada/Bushmaster ACR? The ergonomics kind of suck, it feels cheaply built (which, the Bushmaster at anyrate IS, since they cut corners to be able to lower the cost).

I'm going to go with the SCAR, from FN-Herstal.

-Portability - Same as an M4/M16 depending on the configuration. It's not a bullpup (but the US Military doesn't seem to like bullpup designs).
-Ergonomics - Comfortable, even with the stock collapsed, easy to navigate if you know the M4/M16 systems. Downside being that it is NOT ambidextrous, though ALL soldiers are trained to fire left handed. Fire controls are ambi, however.
-Weight - Not much different from the M4/M16.
-Stopping Power - USSOCOM bought the Mk.17, so higher than the M4/16.
-Logistics - Can use STANAG style magazines, the Mk.17 can use standard .308 magazines as designed for an AR platform.
-Recoil - Surprisingly for it's size, handles the .308 round fairly well from what I've seen, but I wouldn't know until I fired it myself.
-Accuracy - Depending on the model, fairly standard.
-Durability - Considering they've passed all tests and are being bought, I'd say that initial reliability is pretty good. Only time will show how reliable they are, however.
-Range - Depends on barrel length and caliber just as much as accuracy does
-Adaptability & Accessories - Standard quad rail with iron sights that serve more of a back-up role when I was handling it. Top rail is a full length item. Since both the Mk.16 and Mk.17 are exactly the same as far as controls and configurations, there is no adaptation period between the rifles. USSSOCOM also bought the MK-13 40mm grenade launcher which does appear to be an improvement over the M203 in that it's ambidextrous and can accept longer grenades due to it's swing out nature.
-Cost Per Unit - At least on the civilian market, the SCAR is going for the same price as a high-end AR15, so about $2500


It's a good, solid, comfortable gun. I wouldn't mind owning one.

There is ONE issue that I am a little worried about, and that's the stocks. From what I've heard, they can shatter if you take a three-point landing (Foot, knee, rifle stock). On the plus side, it's easy to replace, and if you've got a sling, you can still be combat-effective without a stock, it's just not a good thing to be happening.






I really want a TAR21 though >__>

 

[Koeryn]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

They dropped the L, and are just using the Mk.17 now.

 

[Numachuka]

SIG SG 553, otherwise known as the .552 Commando's big brother, and replacement

I swear, if someone says "your only saying that because of CoD", I will kill you. =_=

You're only saying that because of CS:S.

EDIT: I should have really read the second page.

 

[toastmaster2k8]

My vote would be for the Remmington ACR.

Spoiler

Why?

Meh. Not a gun guy. Just like the ACR.

CoD...

Actually no. They showed the ACR on one of those future weapon shows.

Right.

 

[toastmaster2k8]

SIG SG 553, otherwise known as the .552 Commando's big brother, and replacement

I swear, if someone says "your only saying that because of CoD", I will kill you. =_=

You're only saying that because of CS:S.

Haha High five. I was gonna say that.

 

[SteakHeart]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

It is called the AK-101

I saw the XM109 on another thread-

-and frankly, a grenade-firing .50 cal seems pretty awesome. Yeah, I know it's probably heavy, a bit clunky, and probably isn't that cost-efficient, but its concept and appearance are ridiculously cool.

So... why would this make a good replacement for the M-16?

I forgot about that part, sorry. Can't really think of any assault rifles at the moment.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

XM8.


It outperformed ever other weapon in the dust test, with 700 less jams the the M4.

Too bad we fucking canceled the program, how come we always do this shit?

Yes, the hand guard melted a bit, but that can easily be fixed, and with the grenade launcher in place, the hand guard isn't even there to melt.

 

[Sn1P3r M98]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

It is called the AK-101

I thought there was already something out there. Thanks for reminding me!

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

They dropped the L, and are just using the Mk.17 now.

Ahh, well that's good seeing as 7.62X51 is a more powerful cartridge.

 

[Koeryn]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

It is called the AK-101

I thought there was already something out there. Thanks for reminding me!

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

They dropped the L, and are just using the Mk.17 now.

Ahh, well that's good seeing as 7.62X51 is a more powerful cartridge.

It's also a much heavier cartridge that you mostly only see in the hands of a squad's marksman, not as a standard infantry round.

 

[Canid117]

XM8.


It outperformed ever other weapon in the dust test, with 700 less jams the the M4.

Too bad we fucking canceled the program, how come we always do this shit?

Yes, the hand guard melted a bit, but that can easily be fixed, and with the grenade launcher in place, the hand guard isn't even there to melt.

The handle melted after repeated firing which will get you killed in a combat scenario. If I was a US marine I would much rather perform s.p.o.r.t.s two or three times during a battle than have to carry around four extra handles and have to swap the damn things out.

 

[Sn1P3r M98]

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

It is called the AK-101

I thought there was already something out there. Thanks for reminding me!

Well, it's not an official gun, but an AK variant in .223 would be durable and still use the NATO cartridges...

But I've got a soft spot for the ol' AK. The SCAR is probably a great choice, and SOCOM approves, seeing as they adopted the L and H variants back in April 2010.

They dropped the L, and are just using the Mk.17 now.

Ahh, well that's good seeing as 7.62X51 is a more powerful cartridge.

It's also a much heavier cartridge that you mostly only see in the hands of a squad's marksman, not as a standard infantry round.

True, although I think SOCOM could use a bit more punch to their guns.

Still, I'm just glad they adopted the SCAR at all. It's definitely an improvement over the M16 and M4.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

XM8.


It outperformed ever other weapon in the dust test, with 700 less jams the the M4.

Too bad we fucking canceled the program, how come we always do this shit?

Yes, the hand guard melted a bit, but that can easily be fixed, and with the grenade launcher in place, the hand guard isn't even there to melt.

The handle melted after repeated firing which will get you killed in a combat scenario. If I was a US marine I would much rather perform s.p.o.r.t.s two or three times during a battle than have to carry around four extra handles and have to swap the damn things out.

Ahem.

It wasn't the handle that was melting, it was the hand guard.

It would be simple to just make that part out of better heat resistant materials, or just make it out of polymer like the rest of the gun worst case scenario.

Besides, if you have the grenade launcher attached, then you use that as a hand guard instead anyways.

 

[Canid117]

XM8.


It outperformed ever other weapon in the dust test, with 700 less jams the the M4.

Too bad we fucking canceled the program, how come we always do this shit?

Yes, the hand guard melted a bit, but that can easily be fixed, and with the grenade launcher in place, the hand guard isn't even there to melt.

The handle melted after repeated firing which will get you killed in a combat scenario. If I was a US marine I would much rather perform s.p.o.r.t.s two or three times during a battle than have to carry around four extra handles and have to swap the damn things out.

Ahem.

It wasn't the handle that was melting, it was the hand guard.

It would be simple to just make that part out of better heat resistant materials, or just make it out of polymer like the rest of the gun worst case scenario.

Besides, if you have the grenade launcher attached, then you use that as a hand guard instead anyways.

It was the polymer that was melting and use of other materials would dramatically increase the weight on the from of the weapon which causes a whole host of other problems. Who do you think is better to judge? The United States military who would actually have to use the weapon? Or you the guy who likes it just because it looks cool?

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

XM8.


It outperformed ever other weapon in the dust test, with 700 less jams the the M4.

Too bad we fucking canceled the program, how come we always do this shit?

Yes, the hand guard melted a bit, but that can easily be fixed, and with the grenade launcher in place, the hand guard isn't even there to melt.

The handle melted after repeated firing which will get you killed in a combat scenario. If I was a US marine I would much rather perform s.p.o.r.t.s two or three times during a battle than have to carry around four extra handles and have to swap the damn things out.

Ahem.

It wasn't the handle that was melting, it was the hand guard.

It would be simple to just make that part out of better heat resistant materials, or just make it out of polymer like the rest of the gun worst case scenario.

Besides, if you have the grenade launcher attached, then you use that as a hand guard instead anyways.

It was the polymer that was melting and use of other materials would dramatically increase the weight on the from of the weapon which causes a whole host of other problems. Who do you think is better to judge? The United States military who would actually have to use the weapon? Or you the guy who likes it just because it looks cool?

No, it was the hand guard melting, not the whole gun:

Wikipedia:

" Two other key issues were reducing the weapon's weight and increasing the heat resistance of the hand guard, which would start to melt after firing too many rounds"

And, from a news article:

"The U.S. Army has asked Congress for an extra $26 million to buy 7,000 XM-8 rifles next year. These weapons would be used to equip to infantry brigades and thus give the rifle a wide scale test. The money requested would also pay for the staff needed to monitor the testing. The rifle has already undergone thousands of hours of user testing and there have been some recommendations, all minor. The buttons on the sight are to be rearranged, to make the sight easier to use. There were also complaints about battery life for the sight, and a new battery is being obtained that will boost battery life from 200 to 400 hours. A more serious problem arose when the hand guard began to melt when several hundred rounds were fired in a few minutes. It was expected that the barrel would get very hot in these situations, but the heat resistant hand guard material was thought capable of dealing with that. So now a new hand guard will be needed, with more heat shielding. This will add some weight to the weapon, which is now 6.4 pounds. The designers are trying to get the weight down to 5.7 pounds. The issue of changing the caliber from 5.56mm to 6.8mm is still taking place in the background, with there not even being official recognition that there are 6.8mm version of the XM-8 being tested. There is a bit of competition among combat divisions to be the first to get the rifles for the 2005 test, with many officers lobbying to get one of their divisions brigades selected."

That was in 2004.

I'm sure we have or can develop a more heat resistant material to use without adding too much more weight after 6 years since then.

 

[LogicNProportion]

A buddy of mine in the service told me that the ACR will be replacing the M-series very soon.

As for the M-16 itself, I love it, every bit of it. It's just so comfy to hold onto.