Poll: Your thoughts about the ME 3 ending extension.

[rigabear]

I've bought into the whole Indoctrination Theory
(explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck, and here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI)

So I'm convinced Bioware are just trolling by ending the game without you 'waking-up' and the DLC cut-scenes (which would have actually been done pre-release) will be what happens in the real world after Shepard's hallucination (the ending) which was basically the Reapers fighting for control of Shepard's mind.

If true, it still would have been a much more satisfying experience if they'd put it in the first copy and the omission makes the original game essentially incomplete. So it's still a detestable move BUT it would mean that everyone was essentially 'indoctrinated' and as a result did things like donate to charity and file FTC complaints. I find that HILARIOUS.

As why they would delay the release of the ending and leave fans hanging - it makes perfect business sense (double whammy of publicity, spaced months apart - genius) which obviously doesn't count in its favour but you have to appreciate marketing ingenuity when you see it (and then hate it, if appropriate).

That assumes Indoctrination Theory is on the money, if not... salvaging that mess is gonna be tricky.

God please be true.

 

[Storm Dragon]

I was already planning on replaying the entire series this summer, so I'll give the DLC a shot. I didn't think the ending was as bad as everyone is saying, I mean, yeah, it's bad, but I'm not up in arms about it. The three things that really stood out to me were: 1. The Normandy fleeing for no reason, 2. The Mass Relays being destroyed seems pointless, and 3. Synthesis makes no sense. The character of the Catalyst did come out of nowhere, but I could put up with that, and I don't think his reasons for creating the Reapers were completely nonsensical (The Reapers wipe out civilizations to make room for the next ones, like pruning a garden).

BioWare has been one of my favorite developers since I played Knights of the Old Republic, and I have enjoyed many of their games since. Maybe this is just blind fanboy devotion, but I'm willing to give them a second chance. Besides, I already own the game itself and the DLC is free, so it's not like it's going to cost me anything.

 

[Megalodon]

But from a purely plot vs plot standpoint, I don't see how ME 3's ending negates ME 1, that's what I'm asking: How does what the Catalyst says and does make Sovereign's attack pointless? You may not have the answer, and it could be a minority of people who feel this way, but that's what I'm wanting to know.

This comes down to "If the catalyst controls the Reapers then why didn't it open the mass relay in the Citadel, thus making Soverign mission at the end of ME unneccessary". Earlier in this thread you gave a reasonable explanation for this (at least I think it was you), however ME3 itself doesn't offer any justification or explanation at all. It's left as one of the many unexplained plot holes of the ending.

 

[RJ 17]

I've bought into the whole Indoctrination Theory
(explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck, and here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZOyeFvnhiI)

So I'm convinced Bioware are just trolling by ending the game without you 'waking-up' and the DLC cut-scenes (which would have actually been done pre-release) will be what happens in the real world after Shepard's hallucination (the ending) which was basically the Reapers fighting for control of Shepard's mind.

If true, it still would have been a much more satisfying experience if they'd put it in the first copy and the omission makes the original game essentially incomplete. So it's still a detestable move BUT it would mean that everyone was essentially 'indoctrinated' and as a result did things like donate to charity and file FTC complaints. I find that HILARIOUS.

As why they would delay the release of the ending and leave fans hanging - it makes perfect business sense (double whammy of publicity, spaced months apart - genius) which obviously doesn't count in its favour but you have to appreciate marketing ingenuity when you see it (and then hate it, if appropriate).

That assumes Indoctrination Theory is on the money, if not... salvaging that mess is gonna be tricky.

God please be true.

Problem with the IT is that no matter which choice you pick, the game ends with Shepard failing. If you pick Blue or Green, Shepard gives into Indoctrination and everyone's boned. If you pick Red, Shepard breaks free from Indoctrination................then what? He/She is still 3/4 dead laying in a pile of rubble on Earth after having been blasted by Harbinger's main cannon. That doesn't win us the war, that doesn't get rid of the Reaper. So either Shepard gives in and we lose or he/she breaks free and.......we still lose because no one REALLY made it to the Citadel to ACTUALLY plug in the Crucible.

What's wrong with ending on a "The Good Guys Lost" note? Nothing...except the fact that Star Gazer shows up no matter what ending you take and speaks of Shepard as being an ultimate, legendary hero and savior for the entire galaxy. This would not be the case if Shepard failed to stop the Reapers.

As plot-hole filled as it is, the only interpretation of the ending that fits is a literal interpretation.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I saw the ending in full a few days ago.
Honestly, it wasn't the train wreck everyone claimed it was; (it's certainly no Fallout 3) but it did betray the series' premise. An explanation won't fix it, because the only thing to explain is how cliche' it is.

Spoiler: End Game Spoilers, if you somehow managed to avoid it this long

The Illusive Man's speech was literally one cliche' buzzword after another.
Then the "Starchild" exposition dump was literally just more of the same.

"Evolution", "Ultimate Power", "Control". Dime-a-dozen game-ending garbage. It would have been equally as bad if you just killed the Reapers and cut to you years later living with one of your many potential love-interests.

"Indoctrination Theory" doesn't mean shit here. Why?
Because it's just bad, rushed writing that's not even worth rationalizing with such a theory; the people making such rationalization have put more thought and effort into the story than the writers did.

It isn't so deep that it needs to be explained; it's so shallow that it needs to be rewritten.

Don't cling to the turd. Because a polished turd is still just a turd.

 

[Storm Dragon]

And that the ultimate best outcome is synthesis?

I would argue that Control is the best ending. The Relays are merely damaged instead of being totally destroyed, and Shepard can now just force the Reapers to fix them before making them all dive into stars. Plus there's the delicious irony of Assuming Direct Control of Harbinger.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Where is the option for "The ending was fine and the DLC is completely unnecessary"?

I mean it's free content, so I'll take it, but give me more poll options. Not everyone agrees here.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I would argue that Control is the best ending. The Relays are merely damaged instead of being totally destroyed, and Shepard can now just force the Reapers to fix them before making them all dive into stars. Plus there's the delicious irony of Assuming Direct Control of Harbinger.

Shepard goes all grey and shitty and becomes a Reaper/Husk. I don't trust Shepard to still be "Shepard" under those circumstances, nevermind thousands of years later after living all that time as a godlike organic/synthetic hybrid. Any vestiges of humanity will have been long since obliterated by then.

 

[cerebus23]

It all simply went sideways when the og writer for the series had to write out his motivation for the reepers, after all the whole reason they were supposed to do it was because of dark energy destroying the universe. but at some point the fact that all the tech in me seemed to use dark energy to work period it became problemmatic to fix that so they scrapped it.

the reason the whole brainwash thing fits is because they actually did scenes for the end that did that then cut it.

they even had a huge boss fight vs the illusive man at some point, and i think a boss fight planned for the starchild bs. heck they even had a boss fight planned with soverigen just before the ship, at some point they decided they had way too many boss fights going on and cut those.

so they were on their second or third string writer, the og core plot was dead and buried long ago, they had ditched multiple endings because they did not work, cut a ton of dialogue out of the ending, star kid illusive man all had way way more talking to do, and came up with an ending that not only did not work but left people feeling angry and betrayed.

they could cobble something together out of all the stuff they did they could even retcon the end 100 different ways if they really wanted to. but from the sounds of it they are just going to pad it some, if that explains stuff to a more satisfactory level great, cause there simply is no explanition at a the end of me3 you either take it or leave it and none of it makes sense, and it just does not work to say they are aliens with alien thinking therefore we should not be able to understand it.

and if the star child is a creation of the catalyist how the hell is it intruding onto shepherds brain the entire game, only to show up physically at the end if its just been created.

 

[RJ 17]

Where is the option for "The ending was fine and the DLC is completely unnecessary"?

I mean it's free content, so I'll take it, but give me more poll options. Not everyone agrees here.

I'd edit the poll, but the question wasn't "Do you think this Extended Cut is necessary?" It was "Are you looking forward to the Extended Cut?" to which there's really only four ahem, 3 possible answers: Yes, No, and "At this point I really don't care."

I can appreciate that you liked the ending...personally I didn't think it was all as horrible as most people did (hence my stating that it most specifically did NOT ruin the entire series for me), but the nature of this topic is simply whether or not you're looking forward to the Extended Cut being released.

 

[hermes]

Also, they are almost a force of nature. True, they tend to use our own worst fears and insecurities to maximize victims, but that is because they are looking for the most efficient way to do their job. And in that sense, they can't be bargain with, negotiated with, controlled with, empathized with, and they just couldn't care less whether we see them as cruel or brutal...

Actually that's the LEAST effective way to do their job, because it guarantees a maximum level of resistance. For a species that is so heavy on indoctrination and controlling the way organic life develops, you'd think they'd work to instill in them a sense of wonder and awe and appreciation for this process. It's not like organics aren't vulnerable to suggestion. If they saw the Reapers as benevolent Gods, half the population would probably be lining up to get harvested. Instead they're such violent idiots about it you've got them fighting tooth and nail to survive at any cost.

Or maybe at that point they just don't care about it, or don't want to lose time in more subtle ways (when I mean eficient, I mostly mean fast). Its not like they ever shown any concern about the possibility of "organics fighting tooth and nail to survive" against them...

 

[Pikey Mikey]

Since they've said that they are only going to Expand the ending, not make an alternate one, I don't care. They're pretty much dead to me. To quote a very good quote from the Bioware forums:
"Instead of giving us an ending that Isn't shit, they're going to explain Why their ending is shit."

 

[RJ 17]

I would argue that Control is the best ending. The Relays are merely damaged instead of being totally destroyed, and Shepard can now just force the Reapers to fix them before making them all dive into stars. Plus there's the delicious irony of Assuming Direct Control of Harbinger.

Shepard goes all grey and shitty and becomes a Reaper/Husk. I don't trust Shepard to still be "Shepard" under those circumstances, nevermind thousands of years later after living all that time as a godlike organic/synthetic hybrid. Any vestiges of humanity will have been long since obliterated by then.

Annnnnnd that's when the boredom sets in and Shepard says "Fuck it, lets start up the Cycle again!" *goes on to use Reaper lasers to carve massive troll faces into the surface of every moon and planet before initiating another galactic genocide.*

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Or maybe at that point they just don't care about it, or don't want to lose time in more subtle ways (when I mean eficient, I mostly mean fast). Its not like they ever shown any concern about the possibility of "organics fighting tooth and nail to survive" against them...

Well again though, that's not faster. We're given to understand that the Protheans fought back for over 100 years, and your own coalition is poised to do much better thanks to having forewarning. Perhaps not a long time by Reaper standards, but we're talking several generations by organic standards. That is a long ass time. Now imagine if 50-75% of those organics were totally onboard with your message and were willingly going to the slaughter and helping out with the rounding up? How long would that take? A few weeks?

Like I say, for a logical species, it's a totally illogical way to go about things. They obviously understand how useful sleeper agents and compulsion are, they employ them all the time. So when it comes time to execute the master plan of the harvest they show all the subtlety of a guy chopping your door down with a heavy axe. It's nonsensical.

Annnnnnd that's when the boredom sets in and Shepard says "Fuck it, lets start up the Cycle again!" *goes on to use Reaper lasers to carve massive troll faces into the surface of every moon and planet before initiating another galactic genocide.*

You have to figure he/she would just go native at some point. How can you live as a Reaper, amongst Reapers, for thousands of years, and somehow remember what it meant to be human? Shepard would be full blown Reaper inside of few centuries if he/she wasn't a Reaper the second the process ended. Mass Effect 4 would be about the cycle starting all over again with a big fucking Reaper named Shepard shouting "We are your salvation!" while blowing holes in civilians.

 

[hermes]

Where is the option for "The ending was fine and the DLC is completely unnecessary"?

I mean it's free content, so I'll take it, but give me more poll options. Not everyone agrees here.

I'd edit the poll, but the question wasn't "Do you think this Extended Cut is necessary?" It was "Are you looking forward to the Extended Cut?" to which there's really only four ahem, 3 possible answers: Yes, No, and "At this point I really don't care."

Actually, the 3 answers that you give are "No, it will be shit", "Yes, I hope everything is turn to be good" or "I don't even care"; which implies your only stand is to be originally disappointed about it. None of those options covers the position of some people here, which is "Not really, I don't think it was necessary to begin with"

 

[hermes]

Or maybe at that point they just don't care about it, or don't want to lose time in more subtle ways (when I mean eficient, I mostly mean fast). Its not like they ever shown any concern about the possibility of "organics fighting tooth and nail to survive" against them...

Well again though, that's not faster. We're given to understand that the Protheans fought back for over 100 years, and your own coalition is poised to do much better thanks to having forewarning. Perhaps not a long time by Reaper standards, but we're talking several generations by organic standards. That is a long ass time. Now imagine if 50-75% of those organics were totally onboard with your message and were willingly going to the slaughter and helping out with the rounding up? How long would that take? A few weeks?

Actually, if you hear the Jessica Chobot or EDI's reports fairly regularly, you will hear that they indoctrinated world leaders and random captives to help them calm down people or promised to reward people that sell out dissidents. They started the attack by crippling our defenses and most of their brutal strategies seems designed to demoralize resistance more than just killing it, but they are not above using their persuasion powers to speed up the harvesting process.

 

[rigabear]

Problem with the IT is that no matter which choice you pick, the game ends with Shepard failing. If you pick Blue or Green, Shepard gives into Indoctrination and everyone's boned. If you pick Red, Shepard breaks free from Indoctrination................then what? He/She is still 3/4 dead laying in a pile of rubble on Earth after having been blasted by Harbinger's main cannon. That doesn't win us the war, that doesn't get rid of the Reaper. So either Shepard gives in and we lose or he/she breaks free and.......we still lose because no one REALLY made it to the Citadel to ACTUALLY plug in the Crucible.

What's wrong with ending on a "The Good Guys Lost" note? Nothing...except the fact that Star Gazer shows up no matter what ending you take and speaks of Shepard as being an ultimate, legendary hero and saviour for the entire galaxy. This would not be the case if Shepard failed to stop the Reapers.

I guess this is where the faith in Bioware comes in.

One possible outcome:
Red beam/High Effective Military Strength: The Reapers used up a lot of energy trying (and failing) to take over Shepard, and lose the battle of Earth. Shepard is then picked up, becomes even more of a Messiah; the massive moral boost, increased understanding and Reaper disarray leads the Reapers to be stormed out of the galaxy.
Red/Low EMS: Reapers use a lot of energy, but still win the Battle of Earth. Shepard is picked up by stealthy reconnaissance teams and leads a guerilla war against the weakened Reapers. Reapers have the upper hand but all is not lost yet.
Green/High EMS: Reapers use energy (but less), lost battle of Earth. Shepard is resurrected by the victorious forces. During Shepard's victory address to all forces, the Reapers show their hand and reveal him to be indoctrinated, and he proclaims organics doomed. He then kills himself, Saren style (some fight was left in him). The demoralised organics continue the fight versus somewhat weakened Reapers. Upper hand to reapers, but all not lost for a little while.
Green/Low EMS: Reapers win the battle of Earth, recover Shepard (now their asset) - he gives doom speech to all the organics, but kills himself as before. Reapers eventually win out, thanks to weak and demoralised organic forces.
Blue/High EMS: Reapers lose battle of Earth, but during the victory address Shepard goes totally rogue, escapes and then leads the Reapers to crush the organics.
Blue/Low EMS: Reapers recover Shepard, use him as a general, fighter and demoralising icon to utterly crush all organics.
Crucible turns out to be Reaper propaganda for the purposes of drawing enemies into a pitched battle, and in this case, converting Shepard - the true superweapon (...) which may ultimately prove too much for them to handle. This allows scope for scenes of your rainbow coalition to be seen fighting the Reapers (if appropriate) and what happens to your crew afterwards. Only in the Red Scenarios is there any possibility of the player retaining control of Shepard.

Whoops, got a bit carried away. Basically in answer to you question - that's where my faith comes in. I reckon the IT ending is more salvageable/plausible than what currently exists.

 

[RJ 17]

Annnnnnd that's when the boredom sets in and Shepard says "Fuck it, lets start up the Cycle again!" *goes on to use Reaper lasers to carve massive troll faces into the surface of every moon and planet before initiating another galactic genocide.*

You have to figure he/she would just go native at some point. How can you live as a Reaper, amongst Reapers, for thousands of years, and somehow remember what it meant to be human? Shepard would be full blown Reaper inside of few centuries if he/she wasn't a Reaper the second the process ended. Mass Effect 4 would be about the cycle starting all over again with a big fucking Reaper named Shepard shouting "We are your salvation!" while blowing holes in civilians.

Really it's hard to say what would happened, as it is Shepard's essence and will that becomes the will of the Reapers. As such, the very nature of the Reapers would change (assuming everything is on the up-and-up and Shepard does indeed gain full control over the Reapers). It would no longer be in their most basic nature to carry on the genocide and harvesting, their most basic nature would become whatever Shepard wants it to be. It's not like the Reapers would forever be saying "We'll do what you want...but we REALLY just wanna go back to harvesting..." and finally Shepard eventually breaks down and lets them get back to business. The question is can someone's will - existing without even their "mind" - be changed without outside influence.

But this conversation is going wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyy into the realm of post-game speculation that none of us can say for certain what would happen.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Actually, if you hear the Jessica Chobot or EDI's reports fairly regularly, you will hear that they indoctrinated world leaders and random captives to help them calm down people or promised to reward people that sell out dissidents. They started the attack by crippling our defenses and most of their brutal strategies seems designed to demoralize resistance more than just killing it, but they are not above using their persuasion powers to speed up the harvesting process.

Well that's exactly it though. Why not go that way from the very beginning? That's what's so problematic about giving the Reapers this "helper" motivation. They've been portrayed as CARTOONISHLY evil from the beginning of the series, engaging in the brutalization and mutilation of organic life with almost sadistic glee. Since they clearly understand infiltration and psychological manipulation, it makes little to no sense that they'd settle for "oppressive terror" as the primary form of their interaction with the species they are ostensibly attempting to shelter and preserve. If Bioware wanted to take the Reapers in that direction they would've been well advised not to set them up as robotic Snidely Whiplashes from the first chapter. It's just inconsistent, really, and inconsistency in characterization or motivation is a hallmark of bad writing.

Really it's hard to say what would happened, as it is Shepard's essence and will that becomes the will of the Reapers. As such, the very nature of the Reapers would change (assuming everything is on the up-and-up and Shepard does indeed gain full control over the Reapers). It would no longer be in their most basic nature to carry on the genocide and harvesting, their most basic nature would become whatever Shepard wants it to be. It's not like the Reapers would forever be saying "We'll do what you want...but we REALLY just wanna go back to harvesting..." and finally Shepard eventually breaks down and lets them get back to business. The question is can someone's will - existing without even their "mind" - be changed without outside influence.

But this conversation is going wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyy into the realm of post-game speculation that none of us can say for certain what would happen.

Well who knows what a bunch of godlike, immortal, organic-synthetic hybrids start to think about when left to their own devices on the edge of the universe. Nothing good, I bet. They came up with that idiotic cycle idea the first time around. All I'm saying is that 'Shepard's Will" will cease to have any relevance or meaning in fairly short order.

As to speculation, when you design your ending to provoke "LOTS OF SPECULATION" you're fashioning the rod for your own back. At least this is more entertaining speculation than "What the fuck were they thinking" or "Was Casey Hudson on cocaine?".

 

[RJ 17]

Problem with the IT is that no matter which choice you pick, the game ends with Shepard failing. If you pick Blue or Green, Shepard gives into Indoctrination and everyone's boned. If you pick Red, Shepard breaks free from Indoctrination................then what? He/She is still 3/4 dead laying in a pile of rubble on Earth after having been blasted by Harbinger's main cannon. That doesn't win us the war, that doesn't get rid of the Reaper. So either Shepard gives in and we lose or he/she breaks free and.......we still lose because no one REALLY made it to the Citadel to ACTUALLY plug in the Crucible.

What's wrong with ending on a "The Good Guys Lost" note? Nothing...except the fact that Star Gazer shows up no matter what ending you take and speaks of Shepard as being an ultimate, legendary hero and saviour for the entire galaxy. This would not be the case if Shepard failed to stop the Reapers.

I guess this is where the faith in Bioware comes in.

One possible outcome:
Red beam/High Effective Military Strength: The Reapers used up a lot of energy trying (and failing) to take over Shepard, and lose the battle of Earth. Shepard is then picked up, becomes even more of a Messiah; the massive moral boost, increased understanding and Reaper disarray leads the Reapers to be stormed out of the galaxy.
Red/Low EMS: Reapers use a lot of energy, but still win the Battle of Earth. Shepard is picked up by stealthy reconnaissance teams and leads a guerilla war against the weakened Reapers. Reapers have the upper hand but all is not lost yet.
Green/High EMS: Reapers use energy (but less), lost battle of Earth. Shepard is resurrected by the victorious forces. During Shepard's victory address to all forces, the Reapers show their hand and reveal him to be indoctrinated, and he proclaims organics doomed. He then kills himself, Saren style (some fight was left in him). The demoralised organics continue the fight versus somewhat weakened Reapers. Upper hand to reapers, but all not lost for a little while.
Green/Low EMS: Reapers win the battle of Earth, recover Shepard (now their asset) - he gives doom speech to all the organics, but kills himself as before. Reapers eventually win out, thanks to weak and demoralised organic forces.
Blue/High EMS: Reapers lose battle of Earth, but during the victory address Shepard goes totally rogue, escapes and then leads the Reapers to crush the organics.
Blue/Low EMS: Reapers recover Shepard, use him as a general, fighter and demoralising icon to utterly crush all organics.
Crucible turns out to be Reaper propaganda for the purposes of drawing enemies into a pitched battle, and in this case, converting Shepard - the true superweapon (...) which may ultimately prove too much for them to handle. This allows scope for scenes of your rainbow coalition to be seen fighting the Reapers (if appropriate) and what happens to your crew afterwards. Only in the Red Scenarios is there any possibility of the player retaining control of Shepard.

Whoops, got a bit carried away. Basically in answer to you question - that's where my faith comes in. I reckon the IT ending is more salvageable/plausible than what currently exists.

The problem with all those scenarios (other than Star Gazer still being right there flipping you the bird no matter what ending you pick) is that it then implies that the series and Shepard's story ends (as Bioware has emphatically stated that Shepard's story is done) before the war itself ends. If you ask me, that's an even more rage-inducing proposition than the ending as it is. Everything you've said - while it would work - are all things that would happen AFTER the ending to the game. You're making up your own story to serve as an epilogue for the series, and there is absolutely NOTHING in the game that supports such speculation. It can't be proven wrong, but it most specifically cannot be considered correct.