Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.
I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.
Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.
Offensively extreme? I consider it appropriate, since I thought her speeches were offensive to the intelligence of the entire human species. Seriously, even creationists make better arguments than she did.
It's never okay to mock claims of rape and it is certainly repugnant to even joke about defiling someone's grave. That you find it fitting to treat a fellow human being in such a way makes you appear a great deal worse than her. No matter how much you disagree with someone, that's just uncalled for.
The woman is gone - let her rest. Argue against her ideas if you feel it warranted, but don't attack her.
Her claiming rape is very suspicious to me considering the enormous persecution complex she had along with paranoia and delusional/magical thinking, hence why I call her psychotic. So I won't feel bad about mocking her rape claims, because she instead of seeking psychiatric help decided to unleash her insanity upon the world.
I stopped considering her a human being the moment she decided anything she thought was icky (watersports, food fetish, mud wrestling, BDSM etc.) was rape. I am mocking her rape accusations, yes, but at least I'm not trying to turn the definition of rape from ''a horrible act'' into ''anything that's related to sex, be is consentual or otherwise''. And I've yet to start talking about her ideas of what's child pornography and racism.
Kind of difficult to do that after I read and heard some of her bullshit.
Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.
I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.
Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.
Offensively extreme? I consider it appropriate, since I thought her speeches were offensive to the intelligence of the entire human species. Seriously, even creationists make better arguments than she did.
It's never okay to mock claims of rape and it is certainly repugnant to even joke about defiling someone's grave. That you find it fitting to treat a fellow human being in such a way makes you appear a great deal worse than her. No matter how much you disagree with someone, that's just uncalled for.
The woman is gone - let her rest. Argue against her ideas if you feel it warranted, but don't attack her.
Her claiming rape is very suspicious to me considering the enormous persecution complex she had along with paranoia and delusional/magical thinking, hence why I call her psychotic. So I won't feel bad about mocking her rape claims, because she instead of seeking psychiatric help decided to unleash her insanity upon the world.
I stopped considering her a human being the moment she decided anything she thought was icky (watersports, food fetish, mud wrestling, BDSM etc.) was rape. I am mocking her rape accusations, yes, but at least I'm not trying to turn the definition of rape from ''a horrible act'' into ''anything that's related to sex, be is consentual or otherwise''. And I've yet to start talking about her ideas of what's child pornography and racism.
Kind of difficult to do that after I read and heard some of her bullshit.
As I said, you are free to argue her ideas, but don't personally attack and degrade her. There is a painful irony in you attempting to reduce a human being down to inhuman status, in retort to what you consider her being absurd and offensive. Schoolyard antics don't make a sound argument and no one will take you seriously if you lather your opinion in hatred.
Ever hear of the expression "becoming what you hate?"
I don't care how bad you think she was, nothing excuses being vile and treating someone with such disrespect. That you would even more a moment think it okay to say you don't consider her a person is very sad for you.
idiot feminists. not all are, but these two certainly are. my counter arguments:
1. most of the porn industry is in existance to take advantage of MEN not women. Don't believe me? go to a porn store. Most porn DVD's cost between 40 and 60 dollars, and people gladly pay it. However, not all porn is aimed at men or straight men, which brings me to point number two...
2. Gay/Lesbian porn. Not just two chicks going at it for the entertainment of straight men, but actual porn made for lesbians. Wouldn't that then be women objectifying women, not men? And two gay dudes going at it, what's your stance on that?
3. The actual enjoyment of the sex. On the most basic level of the sex industry, this is a factor you have to consider. While men can only ejaculate once (standardly), women can and are encouraged to as many times as possible. So in the filming of a 20 minute fuck scene, there comes a point where the man is literally torturing himself to not enjoy the sex while the woman is allowed to orgasm as she sees fit.
4. Rape?! They are choosing to do this. For money. How many rapists finishing their raping and then hand you some cash on your way out the door? and as for promoting sexual assault of children... you're coming dangerously close to the right wing argument against homosexuality.
i can't say never, but i've rarely met a feminist that isn't just so full of shit that i didn't wanna hit her. which brings me to a side note...
Equal rights, equal fights. While i agree with this in principle, i'd probably never act on it. however, bring it up to most feminists and their hypocrisy shines through. if you want to be treated exactly like men, with no difference between the two, then you have to be willing to take a punch. too many times i've seen women attack men knowing that if the man fought back, there's a good chance HE'D be the one arrested, even if it was in pure self defense. I had a girlfriend punch me in the face before, and I knew that if I hit her back, I'd get in trouble, so I just had to push her away while she continued to assault me.
I only had to see who said the quote in question to know that things weren't going to go well. I just can't take someone's opinion seriously when they actually believe that all heterosexual, penetrative sex, is rape.
Still, to answer the OP's question, porn isn't sexist. Is there sexist porn? You bet there is, just as there are sexist shows/movies/books/games/music/genre, anything CAN be sexist, but that doesn't mean the medium to which it is associated with is also sexist. Obviously certain genres by their very nature can be, but porn isn't just limited to that category. Sure there are videos of extreme degradation, but there are also regular videos where both (or more) people actually look like they're enjoying themselves. To me the argument about one partner only experiencing pleasure while the other is just "there" isn't so much an aspect of sexism trying to place value of one gender over the other, but rather just a lack of caring.
If anything that's what bothers me about modern day porn, it just doesn't seem interesting. Sure I'll look at it, but I won't really remember it or even think fondly of it. It almost seems like both cast and crew is sort of like "Who cares about how it all looks anyways? They only pay attention for a few minutes anyways.", so they don't bother. I'm one of those weird people who actually likes porn with a plot, at least it makes it all the more interesting and actually makes an impression. It's all fantasy and fake anyways, if you at least give the illusion of that with a plot I'll at least buy that these situations COULD happen and that these people COULD be happy.
Sorry, realized I was sort of off-topic. Point is this: extreme stuff or degradation is obviously sexist, but then again it's not like it can't be due to it's nature, and porn that people claim is sexist because it values one gender over the other I would argue is more just a symptom of laziness and generalizations made by the cast and crew.
This is just as bad as the accusation that all men are potential rapists, or that coming out of a lap-dancing bar feeling ?erotically charged? (despite having paid to relieve that erotic charge) increases the chance of rape. Because, obviously, all rapists are sexually frustrated, right? It?s not at all about power and humiliation? It?s not as if the existence of man-on-man rape where one or both of the parties are heterosexual proves that, right?
I mean, look, it turns people on and nothing?s going to stop that. And the slurs that you get in this violent pornography (which I still don?t think is really ?mainstream?) like ?*****? and ?cum-dumpster? is just, well, dirty talk. It?s existed for years. It?s part of the whole submission thing, which a lot of women themselves in real-life like, for whatever reason. Presumably one of them being the same reason men like it (submissive or dominant). Anyway, we shouldn't really start questioning other people's fetishes, because we'll get nowhere, unless, maybe, they're realistically dangerous ones like paedophilia.
I mean, yeah, I?d say literally punching a woman around isn?t to be encouraged, but choking? You get that kind of stuff in rough sex and BDSM roleplay/porn all the time, and a gag or (auto) erotic asphyxiation serves the same purpose.
I've been trying to look up statistics to illuminate things one way or the other. I took a lot of issues with the people calling Brazzers mainstream (it really creeps me out, honestly).
The most popular porn site is Livejasmin, a webcam site, followed by youporn, xvideos, pornhub and tube8. They are mostly ameteur sites.
Livejasmin is the 50th most popular internet site, while brazzers is the 1,100th (although it is in the top 400 of canada, weirdly enough.)
Frankly, that is still a lot more mainstream than I had figured it would be.
You seem to think the content (images, behaviors and concepts, etc.) within porn inspire society and not the reverse. In my opinion, porn is what it is due to the public wanting it that way--porn doesn't tell us what to like, we make porn based on what we like. The same argument used against radicals that claim video games cause violence, more or less.
Yes, cultural things reflects society, and porn along with it (inter-racial porn was a massive taboo until relatively recently, for example).
However, people are greatly influenced by the culture they have grown up with/live in. Pornography is very important in our culture's relation to sex. Now, to claim that such and such cultural thing directly caused such and such result is an over-simplification, but they can certainly encourage things. Like you say, it can't tell you what to like, but it's not bad at persuading.
For example, nobody says a magazine full of thin girls causes any specific young women who aren't unusually thin to turn to anorexia, but a media that constantly depicts attractive women as thin has led to an increase of body issue problems amongst young women.
im sorry, what?
those people DARE compare victims of RAPE with people who WILLINGLY had sex for money?
that is.... wow...
nah, i cant take anyone seriously after a comment like that. i think anyone in their right mind should do the same.
...good god, i had to redo my post multiple times to prevent warning for obscene language...
the BS people will come with to get some attention does make me angry.
ffs compare one of the worst thing you can do to a human with friggin porn?!
You ask a very interesting question. I'd say that it really depends on the individual woman, but I'm sure there are some cases in which what you have described is correct.
Because this is such a personal subject, I can only really speak from my own personal experience (hurrah for internet anonymity!), so here goes:
Dastardly said:
Some might argue there's a natural component (as in many species, males are dominant -- even forceful -- during mating), while others might argue that it's a result of some of the 'social programming' we've put women through in our culture.
For starters, I would imagine it's a mixture of the two, as so much human behaviour is. There's certainly something very primal about the desire for a big, strong man after all, but equally I'd argue that most of our behaviour has been shaped by a degree of social programming. A lot of our behaviour is pretty "unnatural," simply because if it wasn't society as we know it wouldn't really work.
Dastardly said:
You suggest that it's a subversion of one's everyday personality -- kind of "breaking out of your normal role." This leans more on the idea that the fantasy is socially influenced. To me, that means the door is wide open for the self-fulfilling prophecy to take root.
The role reversal is just a theory, or course. One based on my own personal experiences, and which certainly doesn't apply to everyone. However yes, I could probably agree that it's a social construct.
Dastardly said:
A woman is expected, by (the darker side of) Society, to not be a sex-seeking creature. But she should, of course, remain sex-serving. This is ingrained in her from an early age.
True. This is why so few women admit to masturbating or using porn, even though both are common. Especially masturbation. I'd be incredibly suspicious of anyone who claimed they'd never masturbated in some form. Unless they were a nun or something, and even then I'd have my doubts...
Dastardly said:
(Make no mistake, Disney sells sex. It's just fully clothed and more colorful.)
As a woman naturally discovers her own sexuality, perhaps feeling a bit of socially-induced shame (even subconsciously), the "rape fantasy" provides an outlet. She can indulge that side of her desires while not having to view herself as initiating.
This is where I really start drawing on personal experience. I am a woman who in very many ways does not conform to society's ideals of women or femininity. Lots of boring information about myself coming up, sorry about that but I just want to establish some sort of "base." I'll spoiler it for length:
I tend to get along better with males (I do of course have some very good female friends too); the running joke along my mostly male group of friends is that I'm the "manliest man" out of all of us (I'm not butch, it's a personality/interests thing); I tend to take on traditionally "male" roles in groups or relationships; I'm a tomboy in that I dislike a lot of overly feminine clothing and style; I feel best about myself when I'm muscular and strong, and being bisexual I am often attracted to women who share that look; I'm proud of my physical strength and like to show it off from time to time; I pride myself on being stronger than a lot of guys, including some of my regular gym-mates; my mother constantly harps on at me for not being "feminine" in the way I conduct myself; I have never felt a "maternal instinct" in my life and pregnancy and having kids in general is something to be avoided at all costs; I'm frank and open about all things sexual, as you can probably tell
As far as I'm aware, I have always been this way, though I'm fully prepared to accept that it's been shaped, maybe exaggerated by my experiences with (and reactions to) society's expectations. I don't recall ever being ashamed of my sexuality, though I concur that many women are to varying degrees (my own sister would be an example, just to demonstrate that this isn't all caused by my upbringing alone). I've fantasised about sexual stuff for a very long time, since before I really understood what sex was, though I'm not sure when the submissiveness came into play (NB I'm not always submissive sexually, it depends on my mood, but I often am). Interestingly though, even when I'm (actually or in fantasy) being submissive, it is often me who initiates everything, so I can't really say it's a way to avoid sexual responsibility on my part. In fact, I'd argue it's more a case of enjoying the taboo of rough sex, especially given how, as a strong, "masculine" feminist I'm really not "supposed" to be into that sort of thing.
Once again however, I can see how that may come into play for some women.
Dastardly said:
Over time, she also learns (through even casual exposure to porn) that men like certain things -- submissive women, being "conquerors," etc. -- so she might feel that these avenues are her best shot of "scratching that itch" for herself. (It's no big secret that, as empathetic creatures, our desires are at least partially shaped by what we believe the other party's reaction will be.)
Now this is very interesting. Now that you mention it, a fair amount of the stuff I'm into now I was never aware of until I encountered porn. So there may well be something in what you say. When I'm "submitting" to my boyfriend, a big part of the enjoyment does come from the thought that he's free to do whatever he wants to achieve maximum pleasure (sorry about the gory details), so there is an element of pleasing him. On the flip side, he has never once asked me to act that way and was pretty surprised when I said I wanted to. It took him a while to get into it, and if I'm honest it's still me who get more out of it than him. So could go either way on that one.
Dastardly said:
All this is to say, is it possible that some of these fantasies, while not necessarily destructive in and of themselves, are an outgrowth of the negative social pressures of the system?
To conclude, I would agree with you in some cases, but not all. I'd certainly concede that the fantasies are shaped by social pressures in some ways, but not necessarily always "negative" ones.
Wow, long post! But thanks for asking such an interesting question- I enjoyed thinking it through
Oh, and she claimed to have been raped in the late 90s. To this day, no real proof has been found, if I'm not mistaken. But she was DAMN sure she was and that was all the proof her tiny, psychotic brain needed.
I swear, if she wasn't cremated I would have flown to America and defiled her grave in ways that would've made her detractors say ''what the fuck, man''.
Hey now, that's all a bit offensively extreme. Disliking her is no cause to mock her alleged rape or talk about defiling her grave, even jokingly. Sinking to that sort of level just makes your argument look bad.
Offensively extreme? I consider it appropriate, since I thought her speeches were offensive to the intelligence of the entire human species. Seriously, even creationists make better arguments than she did.
It's never okay to mock claims of rape and it is certainly repugnant to even joke about defiling someone's grave. That you find it fitting to treat a fellow human being in such a way makes you appear a great deal worse than her. No matter how much you disagree with someone, that's just uncalled for.
The woman is gone - let her rest. Argue against her ideas if you feel it warranted, but don't attack her.
Her claiming rape is very suspicious to me considering the enormous persecution complex she had along with paranoia and delusional/magical thinking, hence why I call her psychotic. So I won't feel bad about mocking her rape claims, because she instead of seeking psychiatric help decided to unleash her insanity upon the world.
I stopped considering her a human being the moment she decided anything she thought was icky (watersports, food fetish, mud wrestling, BDSM etc.) was rape. I am mocking her rape accusations, yes, but at least I'm not trying to turn the definition of rape from ''a horrible act'' into ''anything that's related to sex, be is consentual or otherwise''. And I've yet to start talking about her ideas of what's child pornography and racism.
Kind of difficult to do that after I read and heard some of her bullshit.
As I said, you are free to argue her ideas, but don't personally attack and degrade her. There is a painful irony in you attempting to reduce a human being down to inhuman status, in retort to what you consider her being absurd and offensive. Schoolyard antics don't make a sound argument and no one will take you seriously if you lather your opinion in hatred.
Ever hear of the expression "becoming what you hate?"
I don't care how bad you think she was, nothing excuses being vile and treating someone with such disrespect. That you would even more a moment think it okay to say you don't consider her a person is very sad for you.
Well, seeing as how she considered women to be poor, naive, ignorant little children who couldn't fend for themselves, and men to be evil, sadistic, psychopathic raping monsters, I think it's only fair I treat HER like shit as well, even if it's post-mortem.
Yes, abyss staring and all that. But I'm not a radfem, nor a misandrist, nor do I call anything sex-related I dislike rape, nor am I insane or impervious to reality.
Wrong, someone who's trying to redefine rape so that it encapsulates any sexual activity IS worthy of disrespect.
At least I've got a very good reason to treat her like shit. That one being, as I've said before, equating various fetishes to rape simply because she thought they were nasty. I found THAT disgusting and not something a regular human would say, so what else am I to think of her than that she is subhuman filth?
how come nobody has stated that the way these extremists are acting is also sexist?
these people give these pointless "facts" and "statistics" just so they can get rid of something that they don't like
to quote Marge Simpson "I believe that if something isn't to my taste, then no one else should be allowed to enjoy it"
it's the same as with video games cause violence group. These people don't understand that people are inherently violent from the day they're born, video games do not cause someone to become violent, it is the environment that these people grow up in that causes them to become violent.
these small minorities of the opinion population need to step down and learn that their opinions, until they become the majority, will never be widely popular
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
"Objectification", "rape"... those buzzwords seem to loose all meaning whenever brought up by some radical feminist group.
Suddenly, everything "objectifies" women. Suddenly, all sexual acts are "rape".
"Porn" is way too broad a subject to classify its entirety as "sexist".
The fact that only "women" are being brought up shows how narrow mindedly it is being approached.
Definitely. Although it really depends on the pornography in question, and who makes it. A lot of the 'mainstream' stuff is just horrible, stuff made by 'Brazzers' and their ilk, and the things portrayed are chock full of violence. It's sickening frankly. I don't know how anyone can be aroused to that crap.
Well, seeing as how she considered women to be poor, naive, ignorant little children who couldn't fend for themselves, and men to be evil, sadistic, psychopathic raping monsters, I think it's only fair I treat HER like shit as well, even if it's post-mortem.
Yes, abyss staring and all that. But I'm not a radfem, nor a misandrist, nor do I call anything sex-related I dislike rape, nor am I insane or impervious to reality.
Wrong, someone who's trying to redefine rape so that it encapsulates any sexual activity IS worthy of disrespect.
At least I've got a very good reason to treat her like shit. That one being, as I've said before, equating various fetishes to rape simply because she thought they were nasty. I found THAT disgusting and not something a regular human would say, so what else am I to think of her than that she is subhuman filth?
Do you think it might have anything to do with her being a victim of repeated sexual abuse and rape?
I don't think you'd be too hot on sexual activity if your only experience with it was inexorably tied with domination and violence.
BNguyen said:
it's the same as with video games cause violence group. These people don't understand that people are inherently violent from the day they're born, video games do not cause someone to become violent, it is the environment that these people grow up in that causes them to become violent.
Maybe, if so many men are filled from the beginning with these violent, abusive urges, the best way to build a tolerant, egalitarian society is not to indulge them with their most base desires acted out for money.
There's no reason to assume that pornography leads to rape; there is, however, ample evidence that a society where women's degradation is a national pastime is not one where equality is going to find a foothold.
Well, seeing as how she considered women to be poor, naive, ignorant little children who couldn't fend for themselves, and men to be evil, sadistic, psychopathic raping monsters, I think it's only fair I treat HER like shit as well, even if it's post-mortem.
Yes, abyss staring and all that. But I'm not a radfem, nor a misandrist, nor do I call anything sex-related I dislike rape, nor am I insane or impervious to reality.
Wrong, someone who's trying to redefine rape so that it encapsulates any sexual activity IS worthy of disrespect.
At least I've got a very good reason to treat her like shit. That one being, as I've said before, equating various fetishes to rape simply because she thought they were nasty. I found THAT disgusting and not something a regular human would say, so what else am I to think of her than that she is subhuman filth?
I once had a close friend tell me he wished he could date a woman who had been raped, as he was quite turned on by the idea of being with a woman who had "experienced so much fear and pain." I didn't really know what to think and I still don't.
I have actually dated a woman who was raped by her father. It always confused and terrified me when we became intimate; I was constantly scared of freaking her out or hurting her in some way. She would always say she was "over it," but she wrote a lot of poetry about her abuse. I don't know if you have read some of the other posts here, but I mentioned earlier that women with bruised arms or legs and scars on their wrists turn me on, so the guilt I felt upon becoming aroused at the site of her self-harm caused scars was pretty much the worst thing ever.
People cause so much damn suffering for one another :/
Well, seeing as how she considered women to be poor, naive, ignorant little children who couldn't fend for themselves, and men to be evil, sadistic, psychopathic raping monsters, I think it's only fair I treat HER like shit as well, even if it's post-mortem.
Yes, abyss staring and all that. But I'm not a radfem, nor a misandrist, nor do I call anything sex-related I dislike rape, nor am I insane or impervious to reality.
Wrong, someone who's trying to redefine rape so that it encapsulates any sexual activity IS worthy of disrespect.
At least I've got a very good reason to treat her like shit. That one being, as I've said before, equating various fetishes to rape simply because she thought they were nasty. I found THAT disgusting and not something a regular human would say, so what else am I to think of her than that she is subhuman filth?
And what was stopping her from getting therapy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there rape victims and abuse victims who aren't insane, hateful bigots?
Well, seeing as how she considered women to be poor, naive, ignorant little children who couldn't fend for themselves, and men to be evil, sadistic, psychopathic raping monsters, I think it's only fair I treat HER like shit as well, even if it's post-mortem.
Yes, abyss staring and all that. But I'm not a radfem, nor a misandrist, nor do I call anything sex-related I dislike rape, nor am I insane or impervious to reality.
Wrong, someone who's trying to redefine rape so that it encapsulates any sexual activity IS worthy of disrespect.
At least I've got a very good reason to treat her like shit. That one being, as I've said before, equating various fetishes to rape simply because she thought they were nasty. I found THAT disgusting and not something a regular human would say, so what else am I to think of her than that she is subhuman filth?
Do you think it might have anything to do with her being a victim of repeated sexual abuse and rape?
I don't think you'd be too hot on sexual activity if your only experience with it was inexorably tied with domination and violence.
BNguyen said:
it's the same as with video games cause violence group. These people don't understand that people are inherently violent from the day they're born, video games do not cause someone to become violent, it is the environment that these people grow up in that causes them to become violent.
Maybe, if so many men are filled from the beginning with these violent, abusive urges, the best way to build a tolerant, egalitarian society is not to indulge them with their most base desires acted out for money.
There's no reason to assume that pornography leads to rape; there is, however, ample evidence that a society where women's degradation is a national pastime is not one where equality is going to find a foothold.
I hope you'll note that I said "people" not "men"
and even if you were to outright ban all forms of expression that allow people to release steam from their darker sides, that doesn't mean they won't use whatever power they have in order to act it out themselves. We all have a form of release from the tension of life, where it be a form of media or even a simple action, to take that away means all that frustration will only build and cause negative repercussions on everybody else
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