Pornstar Question

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Not any more than we should feel sorry for a factory worker who gets injured on the job making something we use.

It could be argued that, in this case, the harm is the point.

You could say that, but only about a very small margin of porn. The majority does not have that purpose and even when it does, I would say the responsibility is fully on the person who decided to get into that.

[quote/]
But, putting that aside, should we feel responsible for buying products sourced from somewhere that treats its workers badly?
[/quote]
I would say it depends on the circumstances.

Would the company be the slightest bit effected by a boycott? What is the abuse? What is being made? How necessary is it to have this product?

These questions, like most everything in the history of ever, are not black and white.

 

[Hagi]

Nope, don't think there's any responsibility at all.

It's either the pornstar's own responsibility or, in the case of coercion (provided of course viewers are unaware of that) those doing the coercing.

I however do believe that we have a responsibility to maintain a society with systems in place to prevent people from being forced into such lines of work, be it through poverty or coercion by having social security and judicial systems. This however should be out of solidarity, not out of guilt.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But it's not the porn consumers that create the environment of "shame and spiritual pain" it's the non porn consumers. They're the one's who are culpable.

I don't really see why that's relevant. It exists, they're aware of it, therefore they bear some slight culpability.

I never suggested it should be keeping anyone up at night.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Respect other people. You are projecting a lot. People who have had sex with several people can't experience intimacy. Porn stars are suffering. This is your views, not facts.

It is a fact for a large number of people working in a very exploitative industry.

I would ague this is very country specific, in the UK and USA I really don't think you will find it is "very exploitative" because there is a shit load of laws and rules that governments actually enforce because they are always concerned about legal pornography becoming illegal prostitution.

Ways and means, though.

I remember reading about...I think it was Max Hardcore, one of the tricks he'd use. He'd get a woman new to the area, with no local support base, and get her to agree to do something on film. He'd then take her out to the middle of nowhere, where it's just her and ten guys, tell her she'll have to do something else that she didn't agree to, and that she'd have to pay for the cost of the shoot if she didn't.

Also...the US has lots of laws against prostitution that have had limited success, why are they more successful with pornography?

 

[Vladeon]

I think it's hard to say that consumers of a product or service are responsible for negative aspects of the purveyors of that product or service. It's fairly similar to the argument that many give for being vegetarians, namely that by partaking in the product offered to them (that of eating meat), they are therefore responsible for the killing of animals. Sure, there is some truth to that, if there wasn't a market for beef, cows wouldn't be killed, but there clearly IS a market for beef, otherwise they wouldn't be selling it. In that analogy, the cows are the porn actors and actresses, in case you needed clarification.

The problem here is that some women are lamenting their decisions to be porn actresses, that's fine, plenty of people lament their situations. I've lamented my decision to get a degree in Philosophy for the better part of 5 years, but I live with it because I can't change the past. The only thing that you can do is change the future. I understand that we don't all have the power to do that to the degree that we want to, but we HAVE to live with our choices and our consequences. Asking anything else is trying to shirk responsibility and accountability.

In short, porn actors and actresses chose this life, perhaps they feel like it was a poor choice, perhaps it WAS a poor choice, but they have to live with the consequences of their actions. You can't blame consumers for the affects on the suppliers. If porn actors and actresses want to change their lives, they can do that. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but rarely is anything worth having that is easily obtained.

And please don't tell me about the different sociological pressures that are put on them, I'm aware of them. Anyone with the right attitude, habits and desire can find a way to make their lives better regardless of their circumstances. I work 4 jobs from 8am to midnight straight 7 days a week so I can make up for my mistake that I mentioned earlier and all of that hard work is starting to pay off. If I can do it without any support to the degree that I am, then they can surely do it too.

It's just easier to make excuses.

 

[Parasondox]

No. It's similar to saying if someone crushes in Motorsport and suffers an injury, or worse lose their life, that the spectators are too blame. Those who do something they love to do and feel at first they like to do it, do it at there own joy and risk of any danger that comes from it. Those drivers aren't forced to get into the cars as well as porn stars aren't forced to take part on in a certain genre of porn.

However, and this may really contradict everything I said before, some times you may get those cases where it becomes fan pressure so may you do have a point in a way. A fetish has been created, a high demand for that certain fetish comes egged on by certain "fans" and the industry chooses to act upon it or just leave it and let it down. If money can be made from it, then don't be surprised that a company will exploit it at the risk of the porn actors and actresses. How much blame do the fans get for that? maybe 5-10%. Why? because fetishes are created all the time and the porn industry do not need to listen to those responses made.

Then again it still goes back to my main point in the first paragraph because these individuals and groups can easily choose to op out at any time at their own free will.

When pornstars lament their career choice, and suffer visible pain as a result, should viewers of porn feel any shame that they're consumers in an industry where a portion of the industry's employees feel such shame and spiritual pain? "

Spiritual pain? This may surprise you and many who read this but many porn actors and actresses are deeply religious, with deep religious backgrounds growing up. To save those from having embarrassing internet history, here are some links down below;

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2012/11/26/study-porn-actresses-more-religious-have-higher-self-esteem-than-other-women/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/porn-star-ron-jeremy-says-most-porn-stars-believe-in-god-83854/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/24/i-m-a-porn-star-and-i-believe-in-god.html

So you can debate later on in another thread, whether they are "real" Christians or not and blah blah who cares blah. Point I am making is, porn stars are very spiritual whether others want to deny them the right to be or not.

 

[lylemcd]

Well...the issue of consent is a very murky area with porn. As well as common or garden threats and coercion, once you become a porn actress, most other people do not want to hire you.

Secondly...the viewer is involved in maintaining that system, the same as any consumer supports whoever they get their product from.

You really shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about. While women used to get duped, forced or drugged into porn (back in the 70's) in the olden days it does not happen anymore on any sort of large scale. Studios go out of their way with endless releases (and apparently porn valley now has the girls film video the effect that the girls are doing the scene out of their own volition) to ensure that doesn't happen. Because all it takes is one girl to bring a lawsuit claiming she was forced to bring it all down. The studios go out of their way to prevent that in the same way they do their due diligence to make sure every girl is over 18 (google 2257 requirements to see the hoops studios have to jump through).

Fine, do women with few other options often get 'forced' into porn by economic necessity? Perhaps. I've certainly known my share of strippers and sex workers for whom few other options existed. They had neither the education, ability or opportunities to do anything but make money off of their hotness (which is fine, we all have to get through the world somehow) and porn is just an extension of that. And certainly without an audience, their jobs don't exist. If customers don't go to the strip clubs, the girls don't have a place to work; if men don't hire hookers, hookers don't have a job. And if people didn't watch porn, the industry would dissolve.

Certainly, once a girl crosses the line into porn she has few mainstream job options and that tends to force them to continue in porn. But that doesn't make their choice to enter the industry anything but volititional under most situations (I'm sure you can find handfuls of exceptions but that's all they are; exceptions).

 

[wulf3n]

What? That the porn industry is exploitative, or the porn stars are often treated badly? Neither of those two points is particularly controversial.

No, that people who work in an exploitative industry can't experience intimacy.

I don't think he ever made that claim. I was simply referring to a different thread made by the OP and he disagreed with the bulk of my post and not necessarily that statement.

Edit: I quoted you before the edit. You made a fair point in that one. Sorry for jumping the gun.

It's entirely possible I misinterpreted the chain of posts. The way I read it made it seem like those last points you referenced were the points being discussed.

I don't really see why that's relevant. It exists, they're aware of it, therefore they bear some slight culpability.

I never suggested it should be keeping anyone up at night.

That to me sounds like saying Parents who encourage their homosexual child to be proud of who they bear some of the culpability in the harassment the child will face, because they know bigotry exists.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Fine, do women with few other options often get 'forced' into porn by economic necessity? Perhaps. I've certainly known my share of strippers and sex workers for whom few other options existed.

And you don't see this as being a problem?

 

[Angelous Wang]

why are they more successful with pornography?

Because pornography is done by companies that have paper trail. It's allot harder to hide something when government knows you own it and it is subject to inspections ect.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That to me sounds like saying Parents who encourage their homosexual child to be proud of who they bear some of the culpability in the harassment the child will face, because they know bigotry exists.

Heh. That's what that sounds like to you, is it? I'll never get tired of forum analogies.

When you consume porn, do you view it as you encouraging porn stars to be proud of who they are?

 

[Vegosiux]

Fine, do women with few other options often get 'forced' into porn by economic necessity? Perhaps. I've certainly known my share of strippers and sex workers for whom few other options existed.

And you don't see this as being a problem?

I personally don't see it as "more" of a problem that anyone else being forced into horrible working conditions by economic necessity; in other words, it's not a separate problem, but a symptom of a much larger, overarching problem.

When you don't get hired, as far as you're concerned, there's little difference between not getting hired because you used to be in porn, and not getting hired because you used to be somewhere that didn't allow you to get qualifications. No job for you, either way.

 

[wulf3n]

That to me sounds like saying Parents who encourage their homosexual child to be proud of who they bear some of the culpability in the harassment the child will face, because they know bigotry exists.

Heh. That's what that sounds like to you, is it? I'll never get tired of forum analogies.

When you consume porn, do you view it as you encouraging porn stars to be proud of who they are?

I'll never get tired of people who think analogies need to be 1-1 representations, rather than the deconstruction of the base elements

Obviously no, but neither are you having any negative influence on the environment that would see them shunned, and are more likely to be accepting of them and their work because you enjoy it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'll never get tired of people who think analogies need to be 1-1 representations, rather than the deconstruction of the base elements

Obviously no, but neither are you having any negative influence on the environment that would see them shunned, and are more likely to be accepting of them and their work because you enjoy it.

Analogies and metaphors are meant to be illustrative of at least a general concept. Porn consumers are not proud parents encouraging their offspring to love who they are, either in the literal or figurative sense. It is a ludicrous assertion.

A better example would be, say, the shopper who is aware that a big box retailer treats their employees poorly, but chooses to shop there anyway. Are you directly responsible for the treatment of the staff? Certainly not. But you are tangentially complicit, as you're helping to create the market.

I don't really have an issue with porn in the abstract, but let's not pretend it's not a problematic industry at the best of times.

 

[wulf3n]

Analogies and metaphors are meant to be illustrative of at least a general concept. Porn consumers are not proud parents encouraging their offspring to love who they are, either in the literal or figurative sense. It is a ludicrous assertion.

Sometimes the ludicrous is necessary to illustrate a point.

A better example would be, say, the shopper who is aware that a big box retailer treats their employees poorly, but chooses to shop there anyway. Are you directly responsible for the treatment of the staff? Certainly not. But you are tangentially complicit, as you're helping to create the market.

The concern here is whether or not your shopping at that store influences their treatment in any way. If the staff were treated worse the more you shopped there you might have a point, but as it stands they are not complicit.

Now that's not to say those that shop there couldn't do more to help the employees, and if they did care about them they probably would, but that's a different can of worms.

I don't really have an issue with porn in the abstract, but let's not pretend it's not a problematic industry at the best of times.

A lot of industries are problematic, the difference here I guess is how the "victims" are treated by society.

 

[Starwind1988]

This is a complicated question. I do tend to believe that the consumer does contribute in some sense, but the real short fall is in the culture at large.

Some people have mentioned not having any other choice due to a tight financial situation (read: about to be homeless), but the first thing we should ask is why women, and in particular single women, seem to struggle with poverty. There is no point in asking if the consumers are responsible if we don't take a look at the culture at large that allows it to happen.

If the girls chose this career of their own free will that's one thing, but if she is doing it because it's all she can do to avoid the street then we need to take a better look at society at large.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The concern here is whether or not your shopping at that store influences their treatment in any way. If the staff were treated worse the more you shopped there you might have a point, but as it stands they are not complicit.

Now that's not to say those that shop there couldn't do more to help the employees, and if they did care about them they probably would, but that's a different can of worms.

You shopping at the store and enjoying their low low prices and extended hours is an indirect contribution. Problems like those facing workers in the porn industry are multifactorial. It's never down to just a single thing. I'll say it again...porn consumers don't need to sit up nights opening their wrists from guilt, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone to reflect on the industry whose products they are consuming. I realize everyone's ultimate goal is a guilt free wank, but there's nothing wrong with mild amounts of self-awareness.

Pornstars get paid ludacris amounts of cash

Spoiler

*ludicrous

And no they really don't, although I can't claim to have a full understanding of what you consider ludicrous when it comes to income.

 

[freaper]

Not any more than we should feel sorry for a factory worker who gets injured on the job making something we use.

And besides the lack of a logical reason, I don't believe there is ever a circumstance where someone [i/]should[/i] feel shame. Shame is an emotion that simply happens and if someone doesn't feel it, they're completely within their rights. Telling someone what to feel defeats the point of feeling.

That kind of preaching and chastising is purely self-serving. It doesn't help anyone other than the person who wants to feel superior for feeling the "right" emotion.

What this man said.

They're choosing to do this job. It's not one of those "last resort" jobs, they could always have picked something else.

 

[wulf3n]

You shopping at the store and enjoying their low low prices and extended hours is an indirect contribution. Problems like those facing workers in the porn industry are multifactorial. It's never down to just a single thing.

That's a different scenario to the original one. Of course when mistreatment is a direct result of the consumer the consumer is somewhat culpable, the question here is whether or not the mistreatment in the porn industry is a direct result of meeting consumer demands.

I'll say it again...porn consumers don't need to sit up nights opening their wrists from guilt, but it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone to reflect on the industry whose products they are consuming. I realize everyone's ultimate goal is a guilt free wank, but there's nothing wrong with mild amounts of self-awareness.

I never imagined that's what you were implying. You don't need to keep bringing it up, and awareness of what's going on is a good thing, I just don't feel that's the same thing as culpability.