True in part, but the game was hardly critical of just Objectivism. I had figured that it was more concerned with the concept of people being unable to live up to their ideals.
I am not saying it was the only concept explored in the game, it is better for it. Another one explored I noticed was the matter of choice, and a person's (or for that matter, the player's) lack of it. However, Objectivism is the only POLITCAL matter explored.
Objectivism the only political matter? Maybe I misinterpreted the making exceptions to the idea of free trade in the name of a greater ideal as with the crack down on smugglers or exploitation of populace movements by people with ulterior motives as with Fontaine's rebellion. I don't know, they seemed pretty damn political to me.
Secondly, the game's message hardly seemed along the lines of "we have no choice." I figured that the ending made that much evident. Of course, art being subjective and all, it could seem incredibly likely to someone else. However, considering that the player is given a choice that does effect the ending, it seems more along the lines of "we don't always examine our real motives for our actions." This was present in a number of areas of the game, from Ryan's rational for adding the mental suggestion property to the plasmids to the seizing of Fontaine Futuristics.
The kind of people who would bother to raise a big fuss over the game's politics, wouldn't bother to play the game long enough to even realize it's about politics. It requires context, which certain people *cough cough* canine-based news media *cough cough* ignore.
With stuff like the mass effect side boob, or "No Russian", some assholes just kinda happened upon it and BOOM controversy.
Though, I figure there might be some people who just look at that poster and think the game is actually about killing the Chinese.
But hey, we're pioneers of new media, we're gonna deal with that shit like it's a hand of blackjack.
However, I also think that image is the most grotesque attempt at being irreverent I've seen since Duke Nukem Forever, though at least DNF was just being silly to be silly (and stuck to poking at other franchises, so you could laugh if you wanted and not lose your IQ).
_This? This can't be in Bioshock Infinite. It's...
Stupid. Incredibly stupid. Insultingly stupid. This is either a very lame joke that not even Rockstar would put into a GTA game, or it's a sad realization of how the developers will handle the subject matter you're talking about.
Wow. Just...wow. No subtlety at all. Put it this way: That image is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of how I think games should handle complex subject matter. One sided and absolutely lazy. Don't seem to recall the original being so...so...
Where's that overused "AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!" song to go with that pic?
I'm confused, are you disgusted at what the poster is promoting, or how it's promoting it? 'Cause I thought that the point of Colombia was that it was going to be inhabited by racist, die-hard, 1920s(?) nationalists, and given that the city is probably going to have been founded at least partly on those ideals (like Rapture and Objectivism), they're not going to be shy about their excessive patriotism. Or was it just the stereotype you didn't like? Or how it translates to real-world issues? Gah, stupid Infinite. Trying to be all deep and political and stuff. >_<
Oh great, as if I didn't have enough to like about the game already. Seriously, it seems almost tailor made for me. I hate low altitudes, love magic and science, and you travel around on roller coasters, one of my favorite type of thing of all time. And you also get lots of weapons and magical powers. Now it speaks against my least favorite political party? This is definitely on my must buy list.
Well since the protagonist is an evil vicious violent pawn for even more evil robber barons the right finally have a game character they can identify with. I mean really a Pinkerton? I'm boycotting any game that may in any way make a hero of a Pinkerton.
2K state that the protagonist is a Pinkerton. The Pinkertons are the enemy of the working man. A Pinkerton is a union buster, a murderer, a souless scab in the employ of the bosses.
Hmm... not quite. As of this post, 2K states at http://www.2kgames.com/#/games/bioshock-infinite "Former Pinkerton agent Booker DeWitt has been sent to rescue Elizabeth..."
Notice the "former"?
Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger) was formerly a member of the Hitler Youth... Do you suppose that the adult (pope) has any Nazi bent?
True in part, but the game was hardly critical of just Objectivism. I had figured that it was more concerned with the concept of people being unable to live up to their ideals.
True. Though that's the problem with all forms of government really. I'm not saying that a good amount (or even the majority) of the people can't live up to the ideals of a form of government, but to expect that everyone conforms without any real trouble from people who think differently is.....well it requires either a really naive mind or an amount of denial I can't even begin to imagine.
However, I also think that image is the most grotesque attempt at being irreverent I've seen since Duke Nukem Forever, though at least DNF was just being silly to be silly (and stuck to poking at other franchises, so you could laugh if you wanted and not lose your IQ).
_This? This can't be in Bioshock Infinite. It's...
Stupid. Incredibly stupid. Insultingly stupid. This is either a very lame joke that not even Rockstar would put into a GTA game, or it's a sad realization of how the developers will handle the subject matter you're talking about.
Wow. Just...wow. No subtlety at all. Put it this way: That image is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of how I think games should handle complex subject matter. One sided and absolutely lazy. Don't seem to recall the original being so...so...
Where's that overused "AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!" song to go with that pic?
...Wow. I know I can't reply to this with just that but... Just wow.
Well, I'm glad I mentioned a title like Nocturne in the same air as this. Fuck's sake, man...
_Well thanks for this anyway, Ivingname. You're far more right about this being controversial now than I originally thought (sorry), but it seems so for all the wrong reasons. Ugh...
Keep hoping though since you're on the right track! At least we know games can be poignant! ...When the idea of being "poignant" isn't executed like this. Hope those who want to play the game at least find it fun to play.
...Bwuh? I'm honestly a tad confused as to what your problem with the way this image is being used is... I mean, yes, it's a terrible, in-your-face viewpoint based on racism and ignorance, but isn't that kind of the point? That picture is a piece of propaganda from the Founders being used to try to convince the public of Columbia (who are ALL American and have been isolated from the rest of the world for so long that they might not have seen a foreigner in years) that all foreigners are evil and that the people of Columbia, following the early 20th century view of "The American Way," are the pure, noble people who are raised above everyone else.
Propaganda is not supposed to be subtle or deep- it's supposed to attack the viewer's senses and forcedly convince him or her that not only is the viewpoint being pushed right, but it is the ONLY rational and available viewpoint. This is a floating city in the sky being run by dire-hard believers of American exceptionalism in the early 20th century (when viewpoints like this actually did exist in some cases)- the isolation from the rest of the world combined with the exceptionalist attitude is going to produce an extreme anti-foreign view like that. Being that a civil war is going on, the Founders need as many followers as they can get, thus the attempts at propaganda.
Sure, they may look stupid, racist, and gaudy to us, but that's the image we're supposed to get from them while we are living in today's day and age, connected to the world around us. The people of Columbia lived in a different time and in a city that was completely isolated above the rest of the world, so an attempt to portray foreigners whom they don't see at all as evil devils who are only held back by the grace of the Founders would seem like a rational method of persuasion by some of the more radical Founders, and some people might even have been persuaded by it. It makes sense in the world that is being constructed in Infinite.
As to your complaints about this being one-sided, I think you might want to take a look at the opposing faction- The Vox Populi, a group that started out in the noblest of left-wing ideals (freedoms and benefits for workers, more even distribution of wealth, etc.), but ended up delving into extremist views to the point that they began taking people's property forcibly from their homes to benefit the Vox as a whole. Infinite is not just going after right-wing extremism- it's going after extremist political views on both sides and showing how things can get out of hand if the loudest, most extreme views dominate. This equal treatment of both sides is one of the most intruiging and encouraging things about Infinite for me, and it does lend credence to the idea of games being able to make commentary on politics, both in the past and today.
At the end of the day, however, this is one single image from a game that is deliberately being kept as secret as a game can be in the days of the Internet and big shows like E3. The more subtle storytelling will be more easily expressed when the player is actually experiencing the game for themselves. Infinite didn't win multiple Game of the Show awards from E3 for nothing, and everything I've seen of this game is looking to be fantastic in both a story sense and a gameplay sense, so don't write it off just because of one image that you didn't like.
Well since the protagonist is an evil vicious violent pawn for even more evil robber barons the right finally have a game character they can identify with. I mean really a Pinkerton? I'm boycotting any game that may in any way make a hero of a Pinkerton.
2K state that the protagonist is a Pinkerton. The Pinkertons are the enemy of the working man. A Pinkerton is a union buster, a murderer, a souless scab in the employ of the bosses.
Hmm... not quite. As of this post, 2K states at http://www.2kgames.com/#/games/bioshock-infinite "Former Pinkerton agent Booker DeWitt has been sent to rescue Elizabeth..."
Notice the "former"?
Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger) was formerly a member of the Hitler Youth... Do you suppose that the adult (pope) has any Nazi bent?
The only games that have made a big political statement has been Bioshock 1 and 2. However, Bioshock 1 was a counter-argument against Objectivism, the political theory that is libertarism taken to it's largest extreme, has very few practitioners now-a-day's. Bioshock 2's sparse and confusing story made it unclear to most people it was a counter-argument against Communism, not helped that Bioshock 2's communistic cult would make Marx eat his own beard at the idea.
Nitpick: BioShock 2 was a deconstruction of extreme utilitarianism. Lamb's idea was a literal "sacrifice one for the many" kind of deal and her ideals gained ground with the surviving deniziens of Rapture after Ryan's die hard individualism had proven to be a failure. To be honest, I found nothing confusing or hard to follow about BioShock 2's storyline. It wasn't as well told as its' predecessors but it was quite easy to follow if you paid attention.
Nitpick 2: Objectivism has quite many followers today, most notably in the far right of the Republican Party and the Tea Party in the USA. It is also a favourite philosophy of many corporate leaders, especially from the USA. Beyond the borders of America and England, it is a largely unknown philosophy however.
Well since the protagonist is an evil vicious violent pawn for even more evil robber barons the right finally have a game character they can identify with. I mean really a Pinkerton? I'm boycotting any game that may in any way make a hero of a Pinkerton.
2K state that the protagonist is a Pinkerton. The Pinkertons are the enemy of the working man. A Pinkerton is a union buster, a murderer, a souless scab in the employ of the bosses.
Hmm... not quite. As of this post, 2K states at http://www.2kgames.com/#/games/bioshock-infinite "Former Pinkerton agent Booker DeWitt has been sent to rescue Elizabeth..."
Notice the "former"?
Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger) was formerly a member of the Hitler Youth... Do you suppose that the adult (pope) has any Nazi bent?
I'm wondering if it will be controversial if its a lot less creepy than the first game. I may actually be able to play Infinite because it doesn't look so scary (yes, I'm a wimp and couldn't last past hour one of BioShock).
Bit of a gamble here. If they do things right it's a big step for the medium, if they fuck it up we all look like fools and the medium suffers and has new political enemies other than right/left wing nutjobs.
I'm wondering if it will be controversial if its a lot less creepy than the first game. I may actually be able to play Infinite because it doesn't look so scary (yes, I'm a wimp and couldn't last past hour one of BioShock).
Nitpick 2: Objectivism has quite many followers today, most notably in the far right of the Republican Party and the Tea Party in the USA. It is also a favourite philosophy of many corporate leaders, especially from the USA. Beyond the borders of America and England, it is a largely unknown philosophy however.
Is it possible for you to tell me how classical liberalism and objectivism differ by any chance? Aside from that objectivism has slightly more emphasis on praising greed.
I'm wondering if it will be controversial if its a lot less creepy than the first game. I may actually be able to play Infinite because it doesn't look so scary (yes, I'm a wimp and couldn't last past hour one of BioShock).
I'm jittery. I can't help it. Things jumping out at me will make me freak the fuck out (I've hit people, and I mean really hit for talking to me when I didn't know they were behind me. Call my mom and ask her. I felt bad about that one...). And then expecting it to happen again will give me anxiety.
I have to ask, where did you get Constitutionalism from that? That's a pretty big leap. Do you have a source? Because I always assumed this game would be tackling Nationalism, and this game being about Constitutionalism makes no goddamn sense. Can you tell me, because I'd really like to know how you made that connection?
Nitpick 2: Objectivism has quite many followers today, most notably in the far right of the Republican Party and the Tea Party in the USA. It is also a favourite philosophy of many corporate leaders, especially from the USA. Beyond the borders of America and England, it is a largely unknown philosophy however.
Is it possible for you to tell me how classical liberalism and objectivism differ by any chance? Aside from that objectivism has slightly more emphasis on praising greed.
Objectivism isn't as internally consistent. Also, it has a lot of epistemological and aesthetic baggage.
Personally, it kind of feels like they have run out of ideas to me. It doesn't exactly take a razor pen to skewer nativism, exceptionalism, or jingoism.
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