Pro-IP Act is signed into Law

[SteinFaust]

don't get me wrong, i don't fully support 'piracy'. i just fight for those in the gray area who have
A: a few songs as compared to say, 100,000.
and
B: not sold any songs to anyone.

large scale pirates who profit off of their exploits should be subject to prosecution because THEY actually harm the industries they take from.

 

[goodman528]

Love music. Love filesharing. Hate piracy.

(paraphrasing) Musician play music because they love music (as opposed to loving money). Filesharing is right! etc...

Obviously you are an underpants gnome.
Step 1: Give away music.
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit

I especially like the way you blame the victim by asserting that musicians care about money rather than music; they are practically asking for it! Whereas you, stealing music without paying money for it, obviously care more about music than money.

Classy. And you've mixed up your explanations between file sharing and piracy, by the way.

What does underpants gnome mean? I've never heard this before.

Filesharing is by far the best method of distibuting music ever know to men. You think musicians should create music because they love money, so it's kind of pointless to argue with you. Because I believe any musician worth listening to creates music becuase they love music. Filesharing does not victimise the musicians, most of the pop music artists I'm listening to now I would have never heard of their name if it wasn't for filesharing. They should be happy to share their music.

Yes, I mixed up the order I wrote filesharing and piracy, simple typo, I didn't edit, just to see if anyone notices. Thanks for taking the time to actually read my post.

and you. let me ask you something. if you had a job (I'm assuming you don't due to the fact you have no idea about the value of hard work). what would YOU do if your boss said "Do it for free" or "do it because you love it"?

No I don't have a job, I'm a student. However, I have worked 2 or 3 months every summer for the past 4 years, (MacDonalds, Energy company, and Research); as well as volunteered full time at a primary school for a few of weeks. And money was a big reason for me working, I'd get a weekend job right now if it wasn't forbidden by my college. As for the value of hard work, lol, can't really comment on that, just a student.

Sure, most people do their jobs for money, and only for money (and the opportunity of getting promoted so they can earn more money). I've seen quite a few of those. However all of the really successful people do their job because they love their job. Point me to one man, any man, who's really successful, who says: "I hate my job. I hate what I do. I do it only for money."

Google wasn't created because those guys wanted to make a few million bucks, no. They loved researching into search engine problems, and stumbled across Google, and now look at them. Chairman of Enron, PhD; Director of Goldman Sachs Global Strategy division, PhD; people don't do a PhD for the love of money. In fact, a lot of PhD students are in debt for doing a PhD, you have to either really love what you do or be insane to do a PhD. The Technical director at Liteon was head hunted and given a $6million shares package, the power division director at HP was head hunted and given an undisclosed package, there are many of these stories around. And you know, those two guys used to just work in a lab.

Even those guys on Wall Street or in the City of London who makes it big, are not there purely for the money, they are there because they love the thrill of outsmarting the other guys in the room. Even those who are there purely for the money quit after a few years, they quit because they really want to do something else they love to do, like teaching, or pro skiing, etc.

Money just comes naturally, like iron filling to a strong magnet, when you are good at what you do.

 

[jim_doki]

Quick point - I realise this was not addressed to me, but I resent the implication that all pirates are immoral, lazy arseholes.

Until recently (health issues) I did weekly volunteer work at a primary school, and did a week's worth (again, I volunteered, no salary) at the local library when they were short on employees - the fact that I torrent does not mean I am an immoral dick who is only using the idea of 'something for free' when it suits me.

I just take issue with the idea that pirates have no concept of hard work, morals and value.

Again, I realise that it was directed at one person, but I do feel that there was some generalisation - not just from you - going on.

ok, That's fair enough. A lot of pirates do work hard. that wasn't the message I was trying to get across. lets look at the flip side of the coin as a volunteer. you did a lot of it, and that makes you feel good and helps the community. At the same time though, you knew you were going in as a volunteer. there was never an issue about payment to be discussed, and you willingly gave your time.

This is the equivelant of a song being played on the radio. this is not the same as downloading an album.

answering--
first thing about bosses and free labor. that's called a volunteer. people do that all the time. they often congregate in groups called "non-profit organizations". they do stuff for the love of doing stuff.

thing about B and E's. no that is not like a B&E. that is the malicious clandestine theft of something with intent to "fence" for profit. what shareware users do is more the equivalent of walking out of a bank with a free pen or a lolipop(mine gives out both). i have no intent to sell said items, and their low physical value is a sub-pittance compared to what the entire corporate machine is making.

thing about doing a better job. i have a good work ethic, and being that my company doesn't suck at life, i'd be more than understanding if i got a pay cut or got fired for doing a sub-par job. what kind of society do YOU live in that doesn't get rid of terrible employees?

yes, but there's no such thing as the volunteer industry. it relys on goodwill and the prison system. It would be a horrible thing to see music, which is a massively expensive industry, reduced to the same level of work that comes from people freely given their time. I mean do you think you would have heard of Nirvana if they weren't getting paid by Geffen?

so you're saying because you didn't mean to hurt anyone by stealing, that makes it ok? because it doesn't

In the music industry you have "performance reviews" every time you put out an album. It's a commission based industry. If you worked selling things door to door, say vaccuums, and people took it and refused to pay, you would be losing money, yet moving product. this is the same thing. It doesn't make the vaccuum bad, or you a bad salesman, but you're still losing money for no good (or legal) reason

don't get me wrong, i don't fully support 'piracy'. i just fight for those in the gray area who have
A: a few songs as compared to say, 100,000.
and
B: not sold any songs to anyone.

large scale pirates who profit off of their exploits should be subject to prosecution because THEY actually harm the industries they take from.

EVERY little bit hurts. Unless the artist has given it away for free as a download on a website or something, you are stealing from them. I dont care if you dont sell it, i dont care if its only a little bit, stealing is stealing

 

[jim_doki]

Filesharing is by far the best method of distibuting music ever know to men. You think musicians should create music because they love money, so it's kind of pointless to argue with you. Because I believe any musician worth listening to creates music becuase they love music. Filesharing does not victimise the musicians, most of the pop music artists I'm listening to now I would have never heard of their name if it wasn't for filesharing. They should be happy to share their music.

Lets see if you can see what's wrong with this: You put hard work and money into a project that you love. You love doing the project so much that you wish it was all you ever needed to do. The project is good, everyone who hears about it loves it and knows who you are. the next day you go and stack shelves again because all the hard work and money you put into it just left you broke. Also, this project was the only way out for you. you had no skills besides doing it, and the only thing you got was that people know your name.

do you see anything wrong there?

Money just comes naturally, like iron filling to a strong magnet, when you are good at what you do.

unless of course people think its ok to steal your hard work from you. Seriously, here's what i want you to do. Build a table, work for years on it. put all your time and money into it, make it the best damn table in existence.

then sit back while i tell you that its ok for me to steal it

 

[werepossum]

and you. let me ask you something. if you had a job (I'm assuming you don't due to the fact you have no idea about the value of hard work). what would YOU do if your boss said "Do it for free" or "do it because you love it"?

Quick point - I realise this was not addressed to me, but I resent the implication that all pirates are immoral, lazy arseholes.

Until recently (health issues) I did weekly volunteer work at a primary school, and did a week's worth (again, I volunteered, no salary) at the local library when they were short on employees - the fact that I torrent does not mean I am an immoral dick who is only using the idea of 'something for free' when it suits me.

I just take issue with the idea that pirates have no concept of hard work, morals and value.

Again, I realise that it was directed at one person, but I do feel that there was some generalisation - not just from you - going on.

When a group of people are defined by one characteristic, and that characteristic is stealing, expect some negative stereotyping. Certainly most people who steal music, games, and/or movies have some redeeming features, but helping person A doesn't give you a right to steal from Person B. it doesn't even give you the right to steal from the person you are helping.

Alex, I have no problem with making some music free, I think it's a wonderful idea. Old Crow Medicine Show (excellent bluegrass band) makes one song per album available on their web site, so that perspective buyers can sample their work. What I object to is people taking music and unilaterally declaring that it should be free - saying in effect that although their own labor is precious and rare and must be paid for, the musicians' labor is worthless and may be taken at will.

 

[goodman528]

Quick point - I realise this was not addressed to me, but I resent the implication that all pirates are immoral, lazy arseholes.......

.......I just take issue with the idea that pirates have no concept of hard work, morals and value.

Thank you Qayin for standing up for me (though you may or may not agree with me).

don't get me wrong, i don't fully support 'piracy'. i just fight for those in the gray area who have
A: a few songs as compared to say, 100,000.
and
B: not sold any songs to anyone.

large scale pirates who profit off of their exploits should be subject to prosecution because THEY actually harm the industries they take from.

EVERY little bit hurts. Unless the artist has given it away for free as a download on a website or something, you are stealing from them. I dont care if you dont sell it, i dont care if its only a little bit, stealing is stealing

There lies the foundamental difference in opinions on this matter. I, and most people, correctly, do not see filesharing as piracy. You defends the view that even 1 song for a sample would be piracy. You should go and see a country like China, then you will understand what piracy is, it has nothing to do with music, or movies, or even intellectural property rights; far as the criminals are concerned, making money is the first priority. And piracy really has ruined the Chinese music industry, piracy, not filesharing.

 

[goodman528]

Filesharing is by far the best method of distibuting music ever know to men. You think musicians should create music because they love money, so it's kind of pointless to argue with you. Because I believe any musician worth listening to creates music becuase they love music. Filesharing does not victimise the musicians, most of the pop music artists I'm listening to now I would have never heard of their name if it wasn't for filesharing. They should be happy to share their music.

Lets see if you can see what's wrong with this: You put hard work and money into a project that you love. You love doing the project so much that you wish it was all you ever needed to do. The project is good, everyone who hears about it loves it and knows who you are. the next day you go and stack shelves again because all the hard work and money you put into it just left you broke. Also, this project was the only way out for you. you had no skills besides doing it, and the only thing you got was that people know your name.

do you see anything wrong there?

Money just comes naturally, like iron filling to a strong magnet, when you are good at what you do.

unless of course people think its ok to steal your hard work from you. Seriously, here's what i want you to do. Build a table, work for years on it. put all your time and money into it, make it the best damn table in existence.

then sit back while i tell you that its ok for me to steal it

Of course a lot of businesses go bust the way you described, but there is one thing you have not grasped. Those projects, most of the time targets a very narrow market. If your project can create a consumer product, or something everyone can use and love, then you will not go bust.

There's something about copying music digitally that's quite foundamentally different from a physical table, isn't there?

 

[jim_doki]

There lies the foundamental difference in opinions on this matter. I, and most people, correctly, do not see filesharing as piracy. You defends the view that even 1 song for a sample would be piracy. You should go and see a country like China, then you will understand what piracy is, it has nothing to do with music, or movies, or even intellectural property rights; far as the criminals are concerned, making money is the first priority. And piracy really has ruined the Chinese music industry, piracy, not filesharing.

we're going around in circles here. tell you what, you explain to me how stealing something valued at around 2 dollars is any less stealing than stealing something worth 30, and i'll consede that filesharing isn't theft.

Filesharing is not the same as giving away music for free. Giving music away for free is done by the artist of his own free will, like giving away pens or lollypops. it's not the same as taking something someone is trying to sell.

EDIT:

Dude, if you're selling a product and someone thinks it's ok to steal it, regardless of your target market, you're going bust. its simple, you sell something and people buy it, you stay in business, people don't, you dont. music is the same.

there is a difference: you can only steal a table once

 

[SteinFaust]

yes, but there's no such thing as the volunteer industry. it relys on goodwill and the prison system. It would be a horrible thing to see music, which is a massively expensive industry, reduced to the same level of work that comes from people freely given their time. I mean do you think you would have heard of Nirvana if they weren't getting paid by Geffen?

so you're saying because you didn't mean to hurt anyone by stealing, that makes it ok? because it doesn't

In the music industry you have "performance reviews" every time you put out an album. It's a commission based industry. If you worked selling things door to door, say vaccuums, and people took it and refused to pay, you would be losing money, yet moving product. this is the same thing. It doesn't make the vaccuum bad, or you a bad salesman, but you're still losing money for no good (or legal) reason

- *ahem* Red Cross, Unicef, Peta, MADD, SADD, Live Aid-- should i go on?
and nirvana started at small-time gigs just like every other band.there were people who knew about them before this "Geffen"

-and no if i were to download a song, i would full well know what i'm doing and that it doesn't actually hurt someone. i haven't taken the dinner rolls off of metallica's table, nor the silverware, nor the gold albums hanging on the wall in the den. i did not pickpocket trent reznor and kick him in the shins to make my getaway. as far as any band/group/performer is concerned, i am a theoretical person that may or may not listen to their music.

-again, physical value. a vacuum is a tangible, vaulable, object. you can't compare that to a few kb of data floating out in cyberspace. what you described is larceny-- theft of an object worth more than $100.
regardless, in the eyes of the company, loss of physical property under an employee's watch can be grounds for dismissal. that's how security personnel get fired.
what you want to do is scour the internet, and find every last person who has ever downloaded anything and sue them for infringement or piracy of something. that's like trying to sue everyone that has ever uttered a hateful word on Live.

so uh, yeah... *mock salute* good luck with that.

 

[SteinFaust]

we're going around in circles here.

when you're right, you're right. seriously, when is this going to get locked?

 

[jim_doki]

- *ahem* Red Cross, Unicef, Peta, MADD, SADD, Live Aid-- should i go on?
and nirvana started at small-time gigs just like every other band.there were people who knew about them before this "Geffen"

-and no if i were to download a song, i would full well know what i'm doing and that it doesn't actually hurt someone. i haven't taken taken the dinner rolls off of metallica's table, nor the silverware, nor the gold albums hanging on the wall in the den. i did not pickpocket trent reznor and kick him in the shins to make my getaway. as far as any band/group/performer is concerned, i am a theoretical person that may or may not listen to their music.

-again, physical value. a vacuum is a tangible, vaulable, object. you can't compare that to a few kb of data floating out in cyberspace. what you described is larceny-- theft of an object worth more than $100.
regardless, in the eyes of the company, loss of physical property under an employee's watch can be grounds for dismissal. that's how security personnel get fired.
what you want to do is scour the internet, and find every last person who has ever downloaded anything and sue them for infringement or piracy of something. that's like trying to sue everyone that has ever uttered a hateful word on Live.

so uh, yeah... *mock salute* good luck with that.

Oranisations funded by the governmnent or rich guys. so unless you want to pay musicians, they will fall apart.

this just shows your ignorance. Yes it hurts, you just dont understand how

lack of physical form doesnt discount value. you would be wise to remember that

 

[goodman528]

There lies the foundamental difference in opinions on this matter. I, and most people, correctly, do not see filesharing as piracy. You defends the view that even 1 song for a sample would be piracy......

we're going around in circles here......

OK. Here is my definitions:

Music should be produced for the love of music. Tables, chairs, hair dryers, etc... should be produced because we need it.

Filesharing is downloading a music file in order to listen to the actual music in that file. Filesharers download a lot of music from their favourite artists because they love their music. To the filesharer the most important thing about downloading it, is to listen to the actual music, and to love the music.

Piracy is downloading a music file, then selling it for a profit. Pirates download a lot of music from their favourite artists because they are the most popular products, the easiest to sell. To these criminals the most important thing about downloading it, is to make a profit from it, regardless of what data is in the file, as long as someone's willing to pay for it, they will download it and sell it.

Music should be free? That then is a very complicated question. The short answer is no.

 

[werepossum]

There lies the foundamental difference in opinions on this matter. I, and most people, correctly, do not see filesharing as piracy. You defends the view that even 1 song for a sample would be piracy......

we're going around in circles here......

OK. Here is my definitions:

Music should be produced for the love of music. Tables, chairs, hair dryers, etc... should be produced because we need it.

Filesharing is downloading a music file in order to listen to the actual music in that file. Filesharers download a lot of music from their favourite artists because they love their music. To the filesharer the most important thing about downloading it, is to listen to the actual music, and to love the music.

Piracy is downloading a music file, then selling it for a profit. Pirates download a lot of music from their favourite artists because they are the most popular products, the easiest to sell. To these criminals the most important thing about downloading it, is to make a profit from it, regardless of what data is in the file, as long as someone's willing to pay for it, they will download it and sell it.

Music should be free? That then is a very complicated question. The short answer is no.

The fact that you download a song shows that it has value to you; you could spend that time doing something else. The fact that you steal something you can buy for a dollar and can easily get along without shows that you are incredibly self-centered and without morals.

Sorry, that's just the way it is. I can understand why someone would steal something that was worth millions - the temptation was just too great for their moral strength. But how do you justify stealing something that costs a lousy dollar? How trifling do you have to be to say "Man, I love this artist, and I love this song, and it's only a dollar. But I'll just steal it instead. Hopefully enough other people will like it enough to pay for it, so that the artist will make more music I can steal."

I swear, if you told me you had a sexual fetish for mice eating bacon it wouldn't seem any more strange to me.

 

[James Raynor]

Anyone supporting this I have a question, Do you think Yahtzee should be fined a few hundred thousand for using the music that was in his older videos?

 

[goodman528]

{In response to earlier posts}

The fact that you download a song shows that it has value to you; you could spend that time doing something else. The fact that you steal something you can buy for a dollar and can easily get along without shows that you are incredibly self-centered and without morals.

Sorry, that's just the way it is. I can understand why someone would steal something that was worth millions - the temptation was just too great for their moral strength. But how do you justify stealing something that costs a lousy dollar? How trifling do you have to be to say "Man, I love this artist, and I love this song, and it's only a dollar. But I'll just steal it instead. Hopefully enough other people will like it enough to pay for it, so that the artist will make more music I can steal."

I swear, if you told me you had a sexual fetish for mice eating bacon it wouldn't seem any more strange to me.

I think it is extremely sad and regretable that people would think the only value that exists in this world is money. And that musicians would care more about how much money they make, than how many people love their music.

 

[werepossum]

Anyone supporting this I have a question, Do you think Yahtzee should be fined a few hundred thousand for using the music that was in his older videos?

A few hundred thousand? No. If he exceeded the allowable Fair Use limits (either for length or type of use), then I think he should have to pay a reasonable negotiated fee, including a penalty for not paying it originally unless he can convince the IP owner that it was an honest mistake. If he DID violate the allowable Fair Use limits and cannot come to an agreement with the IP owners, then I think it's entirely fair that he can be sued with a penalty of up to a few hundred thousand, with the actual amount to be set by judge or jury.

Good, thoughtful question.

EDIT: A good ancillary question would be: Considering that Yahtzee is paid for his work because he generates a great deal of traffic for the site, therefore allowing the The Escapist to sell advertising space at rates that allow us to enjoy this site for free, should other people be allowed to download his work and put it on their own web sites for others to enjoy, thereby nullifying the incentive for some people to come to The Escapist to enjoy Yahtzee's work, as long as those people aren't charging for admittance? (I'm not saying it's a better question than yours, which was excellent; I'm just saying it's another facet of this whole debate.)

 

[jim_doki]

I think it is extremely sad and regretable that people would think the only value that exists in this world is money. And that musicians would care more about how much money they make, than how many people love their music.

its not all we care about, we think it's fair that we provide a service and we get paid for it. Is that fair, or is music excluded from any other service because we should have to do it because we love it?

 

[werepossum]

SNIP
I think it is extremely sad and regretable that people would think the only value that exists in this world is money. And that musicians would care more about how much money they make, than how many people love their music.

You're missing the point. Money has no intrinsic value, and hasn't since the face value of money exceeded its value as metal. Instead, money is what we use to more easily trade other things that do have value. By stealing music, you're breaking the pact that holds society together. More, you're saying to the artist that your time, labor, and genius has value, but hers does not.

In a Marxist state people do what they do because the government commands it. But in a nominally capitalist society, we each do what we do because someone finds it of value to herself or to her customers. Whether we love it or hate it, we do our jobs and get paid back in money, which we then use to exchange for things and services we need or want. This makes things much easier than if the guy throwing stock at Wal-Mart gets paid in Chinese toys and the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's gets paid in Big Macs. When you steal other people's work, you're saying that person's work has no value to you AND reducing it's value to others as well. The artist is free to make her work available to the public for free, once she has accumulated enough money for her wants or if she's willing to do other things to make a living. But you have no right to make that decision for her.

 

[chronobreak]

I am a musician, in a fairly succesful band, and my music is torrented, shared, whatever online. I know this. And you know what? I DON'T CARE. We still sell albums, I still make my living, make money from ticket sales, t-shirts, stickers, I don't see why any artist would have a problem with filesharing. If you're good at what you do, you get paid. If not, then maybe you're just using filesharing as a scapegoat. Now, that is just the music aspect, if there's any filmmakers here or authors, I'd like to hear their takes on it.

 

[Ronmarru]

What exactly are they looking for when you download something? I don't pirate games and very few songs but I do get a lot of TV shows, especially anime that isn't available for purchase yet. I'm not going to be targeted by this am I?