Profundity in gaming.

[k-ossuburb]

Yesterday I was having a conversation with friends and we somehow managed to get onto the subject of stories in games, one of my friends said that Bioshock had a pretty "deep" storyline but I disagreed, it's subversive, sure, but only at one specific point (the "would you kindly" scene near the end), the rest of the game purposely fits into a linear formula as that was the intention of said point.

This got me thinking, are there any games that have actual profundity to them? To make this clear the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word is as follows:

adjective (profounder, profoundest)

1(of a state, quality, or emotion) very great or intense: profound feelings of disquiet the implications of this discovery are profound

(of a disease or disability) very severe: a case of profound liver failure

2(of a person or statement) having or showing great knowledge or insight: a profound philosopher

(of a subject or idea) demanding deep study or thought: expressing profound truths in simple language

I personally am struggling to think of any games that actually fit neatly into this category in their entirety. I thought maybe Silent Hill 2 might qualify but it's not really profound, it's merely subtle in the manner in which it delivers its themes.

There are games out there that do indeed have some very thought-provoking subject matter and some that even continue to be discussed long after their publication but none I can think of that actually commit themselves fully to a definite state of profundity.

Of course this is an opinion forum, obviously the levels of profundity in a certain game can be disputed and defended equally, so I'm not expecting a definite answer to this question, I'm merely hoping to spark some discussion.

What games do you think qualify as "profound"? Or, if you don't think there is a single game that demonstrates profundity in its entirety then why do you think this is so hard to achieve in the medium of gaming while it exists in the mediums of film, theatre and literature?

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I actually cannot think of a game that does. I keep thinking of games that had very intense and emotional moments, but that alone doesn't qualify. It may be just the games that I've played, but I don't know if games are at that point yet.

In the meantime I shall keep my eyes open for games that discuss severe liver failure

 

[Smertnik]

What games do you think qualify as "profound"? Or, if you don't think there is a single game that demonstrates profundity in its entirety then why do you think this is so hard to achieve in the medium of gaming while it exists in the mediums of film, theatre and literature?

Video games are still a very young medium, while movies have existed for over a hundred of years, theater and literature for thousands. They're just "not there" yet.

 

[Lt._nefarious]

I hear moments in Spec-Ops The Line can really make you stop and think story wise... Other than that I'm just gonna go with SILENT HILL 2!!!!!

 

[Karelwolfpup]

I dunno, not sure how well one can make a profound interactive media. Games can have a profound effect upon players, but I suppose that depends on the player. For instance, Okami and to a lesser extent Shadow of the Colossus and even the more explorational parts of Fallout3 and the Elder Scrolls games made me feel very calm and zen... well... until something tried to kill me anyways XDD
Also, is it wrong to want to have a smile at memories of mass slaughter when listening to the song "Let's go Sunning"?

 

[searron]

How about Shadow of the Colossus PS2? Flower or Journey on the PSN. The Graveyard, while not much of a game can be said to be profound, as well as Dear Ester. The Stanley Parable is up there too. Even DLC Quest could be argued to be profound. If you look at giant triple A releases, sure in most instances they are not deep. But the same goes for movies and books.

 

[Thandran]

What about Planescape: Torment?

I thought the story was THE thing of that game. I could be wrong, because I may have missunderstood the interpretation of 'profound'.

Did leave a lasting impression on me though.

Edit: spelling.

 

[superdark]

I think Amnesia: The Dark Decent qualifies. The best part of that game is the story and the way it is told. While it doesn't have a specific "message" behind it or anything like that, it still deals with a lot of thought provoking subject matter.

 

[hatseflats]

Snip

Thank you kindly for bringing this up. I love playing games but this lack of profundity is really bugging me. When I read books (which I like) I only read "profound" novels. In Dutch we use the word "literature" to mean novels with a specific quality (think of it as the "art" among novels, much like art among all other images). I only read them because it means I can be all pretentious about is offers far more than regular novels. I don't need sheer entertainment as I've got enough other interesting things to do.
Unfortunately, most games do not offer such an experience. Some art games do, Deus Ex and Morrowind did (I was searching for the correct spelling of Nerevarine and immediately was sucked into the tremendous amount of detail of the setting), but apart from those I do not really know any.

It makes me cringe when people claim Bioshock or Deus Ex: Human Revolution are "deep" or "intelligent".

Addit: I guess it fits in the overall immaturity of the industry. Many other oft discussed issues like sexism should rather be ascribed to immaturity than anything else. I'm not exactly happy with how either men or women are portrayed in most games.

 

[Lugbzurg]

There might be some RPGs out there where you can get liver failure...

Oh, that probably wasn't what you were looking for. Well, when I hear people talking story in a videogame like this,
I often hear declarations of Half-Life, Uncharted, and Mass Effect.

 

[Kathinka]

you should try spec ops - the line. it's deep. i don't want to spoiler, but you should try it. it's worth buying just because it liberates us from the typical, mindles "heroes good, opposition evil shoot them until they cease to be a problem" scheme, and the ever-so-present america-saves-the-day-usa!-usa! mentality that has infested so many shooters nowadays.

 

[QuadFish]

The whole way games are designed makes profundity difficult. Aside from those few real story-based games on the fringe, it's hard to get across a profound story when your game is 90% shooting things or whatever. There's usually just no time to flesh out a story when there's so much time spent playing the repetitive part of the game.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

While I think of any games the word profundity is the most awful word ever. It should be profoundness. Profundity sounds so awful.

 

[Sneezeguard]

I would say Knight of the old republic the sith lords. It questioned the nature of force, the jedi and sith code and way of thinking and show the jedi their arrogance and failings, and that they were human and flawed.

And Kreia constantly judged you on you actions and choices but also explained why they were flawed/wrong/right/smart based on her philosophies. Not many rpgs do that, sure you have characters in rpgs that where they liked or disliked what you did but none of them explain why or go much deep than that was wrong or that was right.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

What games do you think qualify as "profound"? Or, if you don't think there is a single game that demonstrates profundity in its entirety then why do you think this is so hard to achieve in the medium of gaming while it exists in the mediums of film, theatre and literature?

Video games are still a very young medium, while movies have existed for over a hundred of years, theater and literature for thousands. They're just "not there" yet.

Nope, that just isn't acceptable. It doesn't matter at all how old the medium is, the people who create for it are cut from the same cloth as older mediums. How long the delivery method has been around is totally irrelevant, it's all about the people behind it.

OT: Bastion was fairly profound at the end, with the two choices it gave you. I spent a few minutes thinking before I actually made them.

 

[him over there]

What games do you think qualify as "profound"? Or, if you don't think there is a single game that demonstrates profundity in its entirety then why do you think this is so hard to achieve in the medium of gaming while it exists in the mediums of film, theatre and literature?

Video games are still a very young medium, while movies have existed for over a hundred of years, theater and literature for thousands. They're just "not there" yet.

Nope, that just isn't acceptable. It doesn't matter at all how old the medium is, the people who create for it are cut from the same cloth as older mediums. How long the delivery method has been around is totally irrelevant, it's all about the people behind it.

OT: Bastion was fairly profound at the end, with the two choices it gave you. I spent a few minutes thinking before I actually made them.

While that makes sense it doesn't account for the fact that we haven't thoroughly explained the unique conventions of our medium. Other mediums have decades of theory that is heavily researched and analysed which games don't have yet. Of course that just means we aren't trying hard enough.

 

[neversleep]

What about Planescape: Torment?

I thought the story was THE thing of that game. I could be wrong, because I may have missunderstood the interpretation of 'profound'.

Did leave a lasting impression on me though.

Edit: spelling.

Damn ninja'd

With the tagline being, "what is the nature of a man?" and huge focus on storytelling this was gonna be my answer.