Protagonists You Can't Get Behind

[cojo965]

Back when me and my brother watched Dragon Ball and its followups I really liked Goku. Now that I'm in my 20s and looking back on those days, it gets hard not to realize that he was kind of a colossal prick. His standard mode of behavior seemed to be: ditch family and responsibilities at the drop of a whim or failing that, put those responsibilities on his son. I mean, Christ, Vegeta may have been really obvious that he was also a dickhead but when a guy like him proves more responsible than the main protagonist something has gone wrong. For anyone who doesn't buy it, I distinctly remember Vegeta taking his daughter shopping in a bit I caught from GT that also showed that he bothered to get a drivers license despite clearly not needing one, two things I don't recall Goku ever doing (he spent most of his time dragging Gohan around not the other way around). In short, go to Hell Goku.

More recently I was thinking back on SuperJeenius' Lets Play of Persona 3: FES and I can't really like him/her either. Now let me preface this part with, I haven't personally played any of the Persona games for a number of reasons (wrong console, micromanaging seems a bit much, etc.) but I do like watching stuff from the games. Perhaps that's the wrong wording though, I should say that like watching stuff from Persona 4 because, retroactively, 3's main protagonist does something I didn't think possible, he/she manages to drag the rest of the cast down with him/her. This is mostly down to personal philosophy than anything, but I just cannot back some of the shit this character does. I find it hard to put into words myself but I hope someone can describe my feeling toward this bastard/*****.

What are some protagonists that you cannot support?

 

[Vault101]

I have an issue when they make protagonssts do dickish things for no real reason (and in some cases where it would be easyer for said charachter to be nice)

I get that they want to had a little bit of "edge" or even "depth" but being a dick for the sake of being a dick is not cool

like for example the upcoming movie "Lucy" which isn't out yet (so context may vary), in the trailer she aparently shoots a cab driver because shes in a hurry and he can't speak english...mabye this is suposed to be funny/show she's a hardass/show the tone of the movie but really to me its "oh great..you shot a inocent person..you ruined my fucking day" I can't get behined somone if they do petty shit like that

 

[Thaluikhain]

A Pushmepullme.

But yeah, anyone who is "dark" and "edgy", in that they are a bad person for the hell of it.

Gets really annoying when the bad guys have to all be child molesters or whatever, otherwise trying to kill the "heroes" means we'd be on their side.

EDIT: Very popular in vampire/werewolf stuff, it would seem. You have the good vampire, who is good because there is another vampire who is worse. Like it's a two party system.

 

[Erttheking]

Malcolm Reynolds. At least in the movie. He just came off like a twat that the entire narrative bent before and every other character who was actually likable did at least one thing that gave him a good excuse to yell at them for a good half a minute. Oh there was a command phrase that Simon knew about the whole series to stop River from going kill crazy that he never told Mal about? Suuuuuuuuure there was. That's why he used it that one episode where she was waving her gun around...oh wait, no he didn't. Because there was no command phrase and the movie pulled that out of its ass so Mal could yell at Simon. Oh, and he's always right too, all of his jackass decisions are always on the ball and his crew of wimps needs to just suck it up and do everything he says no matter how morally questionable it is.

I guess this reflects on a larger archetype I dislike. Jerk with a heart of gold characters where the writer is more concerned on the jerk part than the heart of gold part. And when the narrative always makes them look like the better person EVERY SINGLE TIME! A character with no flaws that never losses is not an engaging one! The series was ok with Mal getting scammed by a femme fatale and getting stranded nude in a desert! More of that please!

 

[Zhukov]

Been reading Dune recently.

Gotta say, the main character, Paul, is so bloody capable that I find it damn near impossible to give a shit about him.

He's super-duper smart, highly trained in the ways of basically everything. has perfect observation and perfect memory, can figure out almost anything at a glance, can learn any skill super quickly, can read people so well that he can almost read their minds, can kinda-sorta make people do what he says just by commanding them to. Oh, and of course he's physically adept at pretty much anything he tries his hand at.

Oh, and I almost forgot that he's also The Chosen One As Foretold by Prophesy And Legend. Although I'm pretty sure the author's going to try and pull something cute with that.

But yeah, makes it pretty hard to sympathise or fell any kind of tension. Even when the plot is getting all "Ohhhhh! Treachery! Drama! Danger!" all I can think is, "Eh, whatever, fucking Wunderkind here will have it under control in no time."

 

[Zhukov]

Malcolm Reynolds

There's one episode, it was called "The Message" or "The Package" or something, the one with the young dead fellow and the voice recording.

Anyway, so, basically someone ends up dying because Mal didn't see fit to explain the plan to everyone. The script frames it so you think you think Mal's about to have a grey moment and hand the dude over to some nasty people who will kill him. Dude freaks out and starts making threats, so Mal shoots him. When all he had to do was say, "No, actually the plan is just to confront the nasty people as they walk in the door."

Of course, none of the other characters ever point this out.

 

[Erttheking]

Malcolm Reynolds

There's one episode, it was called "The Message" or "The Package" or something, the one with the young dead fellow and the voice recording.

Anyway, so, basically someone ends up dying because Mal didn't see fit to explain the plan to everyone. The script frames it so you think you think Mal's about to have a grey moment and hand the dude over to some nasty people who will kill him. Dude freaks out and starts making threats, so Mal shoots him. When all he had to do was say, "No, actually the plan is just to confront the nasty people as they walk in the door."

Of course, none of the other characters ever point this out.

Oh right, THAT episode. You know, I thought for a fair bit that I was being unfair on Mal when I hated him in the series AND movie and just decided that the movie messed him up...thank you for reminding me that he was always a massive prick.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Kio Asuno from Gundam Age

Sure I understand that he desire to coexist with the Vagan but his method of peace talk suck!

All he did preach the same thing over and over to an enemy and get his ass kick over it. Ok he was a kid so he probably wasn't that bright but as usual business goes, if the plan didn't work, come up with a new plan!

Even then he seen to care more about his enemy wellbeing than his own comrade as he pretty much didn't give a toss with his squads were kill off too! What worse is he also saved the wrong people too like that evil ass of an commander from the enemy side and aswell that emotionless genetic made supersoldier!

Yeah I rather follow Asemu (his father) that him!

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

[Malcolm Reynolds]'s always right too, all of his jackass decisions are always on the ball and his crew of wimps needs to just suck it up and do everything he says no matter how morally questionable it is.

First, it's important to keep in mind that the movie and the series don't necessarily exist within the same continuity. Well, actually, they do, but what I mean is that the movie makes some tweaks for the sake of standing on its own. Tweaking character traits, putting in some exposition/dialogue that fans would already know, etc. The whole command phrase shtick seems like it's definitely one of those tweaks. Chances are if the series had continued, it would have presented itself in an entirely different manner, or even not at all.

As for Malcolm, though, the series/movie never condone or glorify or otherwise defend his behavior. They just depict it and contextualize it within the bigger world/narrative. He's an ambivalent protagonist. This contextualization applies to his crew as well; it's not that they don't question his orders, but they're his crew following his rules aboard his ship that he captains.

Anyway, so, basically someone ends up dying because Mal didn't see fit to explain the plan to everyone. The script frames it so you think you think Mal's about to have a grey moment and hand the dude over to some nasty people who will kill him. Dude freaks out and starts making threats, so Mal shoots him. When all he had to do was say, "No, actually the plan is just to confront the nasty people as they walk in the door."

Of course, none of the other characters ever point this out.

I don't mean to offend, but that's about as misread a misreading of that sequence as I've ever seen.

The script frames it so that you know something is off about the enemy's tactics and everybody is discussing possible tactics. (They're feds and haven't contacted the nearest fed base for backup.) It's Shepherd Book who insists that they land and let the feds onboard (so that they stop bombing the ship and, perhaps, hand The Dude over). At this point, The Dude drops by and overhears, and jumps to conclusions and overreacts.

So, at this point, there IS no plan. There might be the beginnings of one, but before they can execute it or even discuss it further, The Dude gets in the way. He doesn't just make threats, either; he shoots the ship's pilot and takes the engineer hostage. The moment this happens, whatever the plan was no longer matters to Malcolm because The Dude has just attacked his crew, and the series thus far has taken pains to establish just how protective he is of his crew.

So... yeah.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Persona 3's main protagonist does something I didn't think possible, he/she manages to drag the rest of the cast down with him/her.

[user]The Wykydtron[/user] is that you?

I find it somewhat odd that you can garner such hate towards a character who never speaks a solid line of dialogue (outside of what you chose for him to say) and is absolutely adored and worshipped by everyone around him, for the P3 main character, I don't see how he drags anyone down by leading the group with little to no complaints from his peers and seniors.

Spoiler: Persona 3 Spoilers

The movie series also shows that he was traumatized by his parents deaths (he was like 10 at the time) so I think him lacking a "FRIENDSHIP IS AWESOME" attitude is understandable.

[sub][sub]Come at me Wykydtron![/sub][/sub]

OT: Patroklos from Soul Calibur V, I know the story was appallingly bad already, but giving us a "hero" who gleefully murders people under the orders of an obviously evil character makes him unsympathetic and his redemption really doesn't work because of it, not only because he is a kill crazy bastard, but also a hot-headed dumbass.

Yeeeeeeee boooiiii! I knew other people would would get it eventually. The fact that everyone worships him is one of the contributing factors (alongside everyone else in the game ofc) even. I feel like he's pulling the World's Best Con Artist routine, and nobody picked up on it.

If the the film makes him better then I will have to see it. I don't want to hate him after all, I just found everything he did to be either insincere or a total dick move. Which is a total shame because every other character is great.

I remember Patroklos, I never played the game because I can't do 3D fighters but he looked so broken in his character and he sort of had fun moves so I probably would have played him for lols. I think I remember him having Yosuke's voice actor too so that's another plus, also proving that voice actors really have no say over what work they get. Persona 4 a masterpiece of a story and then SCV, which is total dross.

OT: If you believe that Code Geass had a true double protagonist system (which gets more and more debatable as the anime goes on) then fuck Suzaku. He has a very, very small point in his (awful and flawed) philosophy until the end of episode 4 at which point any sane person would sign up with Zero on the fucking spot.

Lelouch, while flawed and suffered from motivation issues a few times, always had a plan. Always had an idea what his next move should be. Suzaku just seemed to roll with whatever his dickhead Britannian army told him to do, even fails at being the morally righteous good guy a few times against Zero's ends justify the means methods then early on in the second season he unveiled his shit plan for twats... A plan that would immediately fail by the emperor just saying "lol no"

 

[Raven_Operative]

Been reading Dune recently.

Gotta say, the main character, Paul, is so bloody capable that I find it damn near impossible to give a shit about him.

He's super-duper smart, highly trained in the ways of basically everything. has perfect observation and perfect memory, can figure out almost anything at a glance, can learn any skill super quickly, can read people so well that he can almost read their minds, can kinda-sorta make people do what he says just by commanding them to. Oh, and of course he's physically adept at pretty much anything he tries his hand at.

Oh, and I almost forgot that he's also The Chosen One As Foretold by Prophesy And Legend. Although I'm pretty sure the author's going to try and pull something cute with that.

But yeah, makes it pretty hard to sympathise or fell any kind of tension. Even when the plot is getting all "Ohhhhh! Treachery! Drama! Danger!" all I can think is, "Eh, whatever, fucking Wunderkind here will have it under control in no time."

YES! FUCK YES! RIGHT THERE!

Uuuuuuugh... I loved the book when it was dealing with the political backstabbings and military plots going on between the houses. I hated it when ever it focused on Paul. Atleast when you were reading about the two houses, there was actually a plausible chance of either of them winning (even if it was a bit skewed towards the harkonens), but theres no threat to paul at all.

******

OT:

Shiro from Fate/Stay night. That guy was so... so stupid, he single handedly made me abandon the series after episode 7. Its a shame too, because I love everything Type-moon related. Fuck, I can't stand him in the slightest.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Back when me and my brother watched Dragon Ball and its followups I really liked Goku. Now that I'm in my 20s and looking back on those days, it gets hard not to realize that he was kind of a colossal prick. His standard mode of behavior seemed to be: ditch family and responsibilities at the drop of a whim or failing that, put those responsibilities on his son. I mean, Christ, Vegeta may have been really obvious that he was also a dickhead but when a guy like him proves more responsible than the main protagonist something has gone wrong. For anyone who doesn't buy it, I distinctly remember Vegeta taking his daughter shopping in a bit I caught from GT that also showed that he bothered to get a drivers license despite clearly not needing one, two things I don't recall Goku ever doing (he spent most of his time dragging Gohan around not the other way around). In short, go to Hell Goku.

To be fair, Goku is already brain damaged and Chi-Chi is kind of violent and frying-pan-to-the-head happy so if Goku seems like he's irresponsible and stupid it is more than likely due to all the head trauma he's suffered over the years regressing him to less of a father and more like a guy who never really grew up. The times he "gets serious" is when his brain's neural pathways actually work correctly for a moment. He's not much for a father I'll agree but I can't lay all the blame on him either. I wouldn't trust him with kids. Also Vegeta wasn't very responsible either, I mean during the Buu saga he's the catalyst for Buu being let out because he was more interested in fighting Goku than the well being of the entire universe. Knowingly consorting with the bad guys in order to get your dream fight isn't very responsible either considering it led to a lot of folks dying, including his entire family when the earth was blown to bits by Buu. Again, Vegeta's fault there.

 

[shintakie10]

Shiro from Fate/Stay night. That guy was so... so stupid, he single handedly made me abandon the series after episode 7. Its a shame too, because I love everything Type-moon related. Fuck, I can't stand him in the slightest.

I cant agree more with this. The amount of times he talks about how he needs to protect Saber, despite Saber absolutely being his better in every way was aggravating. "No dont fight Berserker Saber despite that literally being your sole purpose for being here and having the strength and ability to do it. I'll fight him with my complete lack of any actual combat skills or magical protection!" Screw you Shiro! At least every other person has somethin they can do to fight.

I love Fate Stay Night, but god is he obnoxious

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Han Solo.

His character arc is so fucking shallow and obvious that it just pisses me off every time I hear him say something like "sorry doll, I'm only in it for the money".

And it's just feels like when he comes back into a fight he's doing it for the rush and the glory, not the right reasons. And everyone around just wants to kiss his arse.

"Oh please Han Solo, we really need a greedy full of himself space pirate to help save the galaxy from the evil empire"

 

[beastro]

But yeah, makes it pretty hard to sympathise or fell any kind of tension. Even when the plot is getting all "Ohhhhh! Treachery! Drama! Danger!" all I can think is, "Eh, whatever, fucking Wunderkind here will have it under control in no time."

Wunderkind = Kwisatz Haderach

Herbert is well aware of what kind of character he's playing at with Paul, but also how those prophecies were engineered by the Bene Geseritt for the express purpose of aiding the Kwisatz Haderach when he finally was born.

The drama of the novels isn't around usually shit of overcoming ones faults and all since much of the novels cast are the products of eugenics plans 10,000 years laid out or directly genetically engineered.

A big part of the series arch is how all those super powers are a trap, especially the ability to see the future which calls into question Paul's and his sons free will since they're not making their own choices but are simply using RL console commands to make decisions that are an I Win button..

A big part of the later novels is freeing Mankind from the eye of prescience as part of Leto's Golden path.

In the end Dune isn't that great of a novel as a novel, try to read it as the philosophical treatise with a Sci-Fi Space Opera built around it that it really is.

For whatever reason Humanity decides not to destroy the alien threat and, instead, puts them in prison camps. All is fine and well until the aliens scream it's time to "throw off human oppression" and decry humans as "the real monsters". They wage another war to free themselves then "make peace" by essentially demanding humanity cede more land to them, or else. Humanity doesn't, so the aliens move to antartica all the while claiming to be "peaceful" and, all the while, raiding other countries for resources.

I found that very annoying playing the WC3 Campaign and the Orcs arch was the one I cared for the least because of that.

They're lucky they weren't just wiped out as they should have been.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Kratos. I hate everything he does and represents. Fun games though.