Question, If Anita Sarkeesian is Right, why is Jack Thompson Wrong?

[NuclearKangaroo]

Know what this reminds me of? This comic from Critical Miss.

Spoiler: Gamer Science

It think its quite erroneous to dismiss the idea that videogames can cause types of influence that television and literature has been shown to have because "b-b-but no this one is different because I actually like this one and if you believe that stuff then you're a Jack Thompson freedom-hater". Thats not to say that Anita has been able to provide sound, logical arguments consistently - she hasn't. Thats also not to say that she hasn't taken games she has discussed out of context, because she has, or that she's provided a massive pile of evidence, because she hasn't. However, the outright dismissal of the idea that a videogame can have a certain type of influence, which has been demonstrated in other forms of media, because "no these are my videogames" is infantile. Its far too early to make such extreme reactions to it, one way or another.

has it been tough?

i havent really read about anything related to films or book making people more violent or more willing to accept rape or whatever

crime rates and just the state of our society dont really show trends to prove this theory to be true either, we live in a society thats more tolerant and inclusive than ever before and crime rates keep getting lower (well not here but thats a topic for a totally different discussion)

another thing to consider is that, is not the first time that a new kind of media is being blamed by the perceived moral decay of society, comics were subject to this, as well as TV in the past

Personally, I think those "new media" days are now over.

Videogames are a mass medium and it should be subjected to the same criticisms as film or television in regards to how it represents gender roles.

i agree to an extent, whole women arent represented as bad as some people seem to believe, atleast in my opinion, i would definitively like more and better female characters in games, simply because i want more good characters in me games

HOWEVER, no good argument can come out of lies, fabrication of proof and purposely misinterpreting things, just because one supports the idea of better female characters in games, doesnt mean one should support this scam artist

specially when one could argue her anti-sex worker diatribe in the last video IS sexist

 

[Pogilrup]

Know what this reminds me of? This comic from Critical Miss.

Spoiler: Gamer Science

It think its quite erroneous to dismiss the idea that videogames can cause types of influence that television and literature has been shown to have because "b-b-but no this one is different because I actually like this one and if you believe that stuff then you're a Jack Thompson freedom-hater". Thats not to say that Anita has been able to provide sound, logical arguments consistently - she hasn't. Thats also not to say that she hasn't taken games she has discussed out of context, because she has, or that she's provided a massive pile of evidence, because she hasn't. However, the outright dismissal of the idea that a videogame can have a certain type of influence, which has been demonstrated in other forms of media, because "no these are my videogames" is infantile. Its far too early to make such extreme reactions to it, one way or another.

has it been tough?

i havent really read about anything related to films or book making people more violent or more willing to accept rape or whatever

crime rates and just the state of our society dont really show trends to prove this theory to be true either, we live in a society thats more tolerant and inclusive than ever before and crime rates keep getting lower (well not here but thats a topic for a totally different discussion)

another thing to consider is that, is not the first time that a new kind of media is being blamed by the perceived moral decay of society, comics were subject to this, as well as TV in the past

Personally, I think those "new media" days are now over.

Videogames are a mass medium and it should be subjected to the same criticisms as film or television in regards to how it represents gender roles.

i agree to an extent, whole women arent represented as bad as some people seem to believe, atleast in my opinion, i would definitively like more and better female characters in games, simply because i want more good characters in me games

HOWEVER, no good argument can come out of lies, fabrication of proof and purposely misinterpreting things, just because one supports the idea of better female characters in games, doesnt mean one should support this scam artist

specially when one could argue her anti-sex worker diatribe in the last video IS sexist

Well if she goes down then a lot of other things go down too.

Perhaps someone should rise to the challenge of attempting to overshadow her, then we can safely take her out of the picture.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Well there is one thing right about both. Both don't know what they are talking about lol.

Anita was comparing the people who play Bayonetta to wife beaters and subway molesters, and if they play gamesl ike that, they are more likely to treat women that way.

Just got done playing Battlefield 4. Guess I'll go join the army now lol.

Also, she stupidly said that Christmas song " All I want for Christmas is You." Somehow says that all women need is men...with no evidence to back that up.

With that logic, the " My Milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard." Dehumanizes men, making them similiar to cattle or pets with no mind of their own. If you sing this song, it means you are ok with treating men like dogs...somehow...


lol.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

has it been tough?

Yes, it has, and for a very long time.

Hell, this is the first result for "TV and rape myths"

http://cultivationanalysisrtvf173.pbworks.com/f/RapeJS.pdf

i havent really read about anything related to films or book making people more violent or more willing to accept rape or whatever

is this a scientifically accepted article tough?

crime rates and just the state of our society dont really show trends to prove this theory to be true either

You don't use general crime rates, that'll never work because there are far too many variables that go into a crime. However, its acceptable to use document convicted criminals and their interactions.

thats true, but doesnt that mean that the effect of this violent and "sexist" media, is insignificant? or that atleast its effect is negated by society?

because thats another thing, psychology is not an easy thing, there any many variables too there, and any inmoral acts portrayed by the media would eventually be compared to the reality of our society, and our interactions with real people

we live in a society thats more tolerant and inclusive than ever before and crime rates keep getting lower (well not here but thats a topic for a totally different discussion

Logical fallacy here. You're making an assumption that one, and only one, variable is responsible for violence in society. We all know thats not the case. Multiple variables have positive and negative influences. All the fact that violent crime decay means is that there is a net decrease in violent crime, and it doesn't necessarily say anything about the society changing. For example, hate groups have been becoming more virulent and pervasive since the year 2000; a terrorist attack by Muslim extremists, latino immigration has increased, the LGBT movement has become more visible, a black man was elected to the highest public office in the nation, and the expanding internet accomdated anybody who got upset by any of those things. A general crime rate is far too inept to be used to judge how the society is progressing - crime rate in Italy dropped after a few years of Mussolini hanging around.

i dont see the point of that mussolini comment but yes, is far too simplistic to say one variable is responsible for violence

but doesnt this prove violent games dont affect crime rates in any significant ways? that this variable doesnt seem to alter crime statistics?

lets put it like this, the xbox 360, arguably the worst selling console last gen, still sold more than the NES and the sega master system, combine the xbox numbers to the numbers of PS3 and wii consoles sold, as well as the growth of PC gaming, portable gaming and mobile gaming, and its quite clear in the last 30 years gaming has grown like few other industries, it generates more money than the film industry nowadays, and yet, in roughtly that same amount of time, the US crime rate has been going down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

if there was a connection between violent crimes and violent video games, shouldnt we see some actual statistics backing it up?

not to mention countries with an exceptional gamer population, such as japan and south korea have some of the lowest homicide rates in the entire world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country

if there was a connection we would see it, with the level of growth gaming has experienced it would be almost impossible to hide

another thing to consider is that, is not the first time that a new kind of media is being blamed by the perceived moral decay of society, comics were subject to this, as well as TV in the past

Yes, and the problem with that reasoning that people use is that they don't recognize that the medium is hollow until its infused with the ideals of the creator. A videogame could be super-progressive while we can have a book published about Holocaust denial. I've yet to see any evidence that any form of media is more effective than another at influencing the ideas of a person than any other form, so. for me, this isn't about singling out videogames because videogames are a special case[footnote]Though they might be, due to their interactive nature, which is generally absent from everything else. In regards to severe behavior alteration, like acting more violent, there's evidence that there's short-term effects, though nothing any more than if you had a person play a contact sport with other people.[/footnote], its about singling out videogames because:

a) They're by far the fasting growing in popularity

b) They're what I'm most familiar with. I'm not a movie person. I could try, but thats simply not what I'm familiar with. I'm quite familiar with games, so I can critique them far better than other mediums.

and c) I'm love videogames, and I'd much prefer any taints be removed than stay, especially since many complaints won't hurt anybody's experience. For example, I like the Himan series, its pretty good. I just recommended it on this forum a little while ago. I would much prefer that the gratuitous sexualization present in the series vanish. Absolution put a sixteen-year old girl who doesn't go to school in a schoolgirl outfit with the shortest I've seen outside of porn. It also had dominatrix assassins in skimpy sexy-nun outfits because reasons, and rather than creating a character that you have to assassinate that just so happens to habitate a strip club, they decide to build a strip club as a setting and then shoehorn the story around it. Thats not just alienating, but its also rather embarrassing to see a series with fairly intelligent gameplay that makes it unique among the stealth genre be marred by such juvenile additions.

but you are forgetting one thing, games representing violence or outright involving violence has existed for hundreds of years

water balloon wars, american football, karate, boxing, chess, cops and robbers, etc

some of these activities represent violence even more than video games could ever do, and again i dont think society has been affected too much by them

human beings arent easily disconnected from reality

 

[hermes]

So you are comparing too completely different arguments on the same subject, by saying if A is obviously wrong, then B has to be wrong too? I am sorry, I just never in my life encountered a better book text example of the "Straw man fallacy".

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Know what this reminds me of? This comic from Critical Miss.

Spoiler: Gamer Science

It think its quite erroneous to dismiss the idea that videogames can cause types of influence that television and literature has been shown to have because "b-b-but no this one is different because I actually like this one and if you believe that stuff then you're a Jack Thompson freedom-hater". Thats not to say that Anita has been able to provide sound, logical arguments consistently - she hasn't. Thats also not to say that she hasn't taken games she has discussed out of context, because she has, or that she's provided a massive pile of evidence, because she hasn't. However, the outright dismissal of the idea that a videogame can have a certain type of influence, which has been demonstrated in other forms of media, because "no these are my videogames" is infantile. Its far too early to make such extreme reactions to it, one way or another.

has it been tough?

i havent really read about anything related to films or book making people more violent or more willing to accept rape or whatever

crime rates and just the state of our society dont really show trends to prove this theory to be true either, we live in a society thats more tolerant and inclusive than ever before and crime rates keep getting lower (well not here but thats a topic for a totally different discussion)

another thing to consider is that, is not the first time that a new kind of media is being blamed by the perceived moral decay of society, comics were subject to this, as well as TV in the past

Personally, I think those "new media" days are now over.

Videogames are a mass medium and it should be subjected to the same criticisms as film or television in regards to how it represents gender roles.

i agree to an extent, whole women arent represented as bad as some people seem to believe, atleast in my opinion, i would definitively like more and better female characters in games, simply because i want more good characters in me games

HOWEVER, no good argument can come out of lies, fabrication of proof and purposely misinterpreting things, just because one supports the idea of better female characters in games, doesnt mean one should support this scam artist

specially when one could argue her anti-sex worker diatribe in the last video IS sexist

Well if she goes down then a lot of other things go down too.

Perhaps someone should rise to the challenge of attempting to overshadow her, then we can safely take her out of the picture.

no, thats not an excuse, you cant use lies to back up your arguments, she is doing more damage to the cause of better female characters in games than good

as for your second point, why doesnt she do that? instead of complaining all day about how sexist she THINKS video games are, why doesnt she study computer science alongside other feminist and make her own games? this is a free market and nowadays more than ever before in gaming history, anybody can make their game and sell it online, case and point:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312970/

instead of complaining she could try changing the situation, of course thatd take actual effort

she doesnt even address actual sexism problems in this industry, like the harassment the creator of Depression Quest received

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200770535

and still, she pressed on, she gained support, she got her game greenlit, she actually put some fucking effort on her personal struggle

 

[WindKnight]

Anita was comparing the people who play Bayonetta to wife beaters and subway molesters, and if they play gamesl ike that, they are more likely to treat women that way.

She was talking about an advert for Bayonetta where your encouraged to remove coverings to reveal a nude picture of Bayonetta on the wall of subway stations in Japan.

In Japan, there is an epidemic problem of men molesting women and teenage girls (including schoolgirls) to the point that the only effective way of dealing with it the government has come up with is to actively segregate men and women on the trains by creating Women Only passenger cars.

Gee, I wonder why she would consider the first badly thought out in light of the latter?

 

[Pogilrup]

no, thats not an excuse, you cant use lies to back up your arguments, she is doing more damage to the cause of better female characters in games than good

as for your second point, why doesnt she do that? instead of complaining all day about how sexist she THINKS video games are, why doesnt she study computer science alongside other feminist and make her own games? this is a free market and nowadays more than ever before in gaming history, anybody can make their game and sell it online, case and point:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312970/

instead of complaining she could try changing the situation, of course thatd take actual effort

she doesnt even address actual sexism problems in this industry, like the harassment the creator of Depression Quest received

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200770535

and still, she pressed on, she gained support, she got her game greenlit, she actually put some fucking effort on her personal struggle

If she is doing so much damage then why hasn't anyone else attempted to overtake her?

Upstage. Overshadow. Steal her thunder.

Personally I would do it my self. But since I am but a fan of videogames I would do it only after I got some developer credit under my belt.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

no, thats not an excuse, you cant use lies to back up your arguments, she is doing more damage to the cause of better female characters in games than good

as for your second point, why doesnt she do that? instead of complaining all day about how sexist she THINKS video games are, why doesnt she study computer science alongside other feminist and make her own games? this is a free market and nowadays more than ever before in gaming history, anybody can make their game and sell it online, case and point:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312970/

instead of complaining she could try changing the situation, of course thatd take actual effort

she doesnt even address actual sexism problems in this industry, like the harassment the creator of Depression Quest received

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200770535

and still, she pressed on, she gained support, she got her game greenlit, she actually put some fucking effort on her personal struggle

If she is doing so much damage then why hasn't anyone else attempted to overtake her?

Upstage. Overshadow. Steal her thunder.

Personally I would do it my self. But since I am but a fan of videogames I would do it only after I got some developer credit under my belt.

because the world isnt that simple?

this is not up to debate, she is damaging to the cause, she is outright lying here, so unless you believe the proper way to defend an argument is by fabricating proof, i dont see how what she is doing isnt bad for the cause of better representing women in gaming

hell, what she is doing could be considered defamation

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

Anita was comparing the people who play Bayonetta to wife beaters and subway molesters, and if they play gamesl ike that, they are more likely to treat women that way.

She was talking about an advert for Bayonetta where your encouraged to remove coverings to reveal a nude picture of Bayonetta on the wall of subway stations in Japan.

In Japan, there is an epidemic problem of men molesting women and teenage girls (including schoolgirls) to the point that the only effective way of dealing with it the government has come up with is to actively segregate men and women on the trains by creating Women Only passenger cars.

Gee, I wonder why she would consider the first badly thought out in light of the latter?

If you try to do that, you will be persecuted to the full extent of the law. Read up on it. Not saying it isn't a problem. Also, there is just as big as problem with women making fake accusations and extorting people as well.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2011/10/24/tokyo-police-target-subway-molesters/

http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/mother-of-falsely-accused-groper-who-killed-himself-wants-justice

Ads don't make you do anything. Just because I see an ad for a violent video game or stealth game doesn't mean I own't start killing people or highway robbery.

And besides, I don't see how the Bayonetta advertisement is any different from how romance novels use men's abs to sell women and gay men their products.

 

[Artaneius]

They had much in common after all, both being people who never where into video games nor had any interest in starting to play them, but still wanted them censored and changed to suit their image of how it should be.

I am always seeing people making these claims about those crazy feminists trying to censor our games when all they're really doing is criticizing an aspect of them.

If a game critic pans a game he thinks is bad, is he engaging in censorship? When Yahtzee says we should have less grey-brown military shooters is he trying to censor the game industry? How is criticizing a game (or more accurately, the general trend of games) and promoting changes only censorship when it's about broadening their audience beyond straight while males or how a demographic is overwhelmingly depicted?

Anita Sarkeesian isn't trying to censor the games industry, she's trying to build a case for why we should maybe start realizing that videogames can be for more than just a select group of people, and we should be treating characters in those other groups as more than just convenient plot driving stereotypes.

I'm not even that fond of her, I've found many other people far better at expressing the message she's trying to get across. But criticizing something is miles away from censorship. She's not saying people can't do this, she's saying they shouldn't

Here's the main difference, Yahtzee actually plays games and therefore what he says holds a lot more fucking merit than Anita does. Criticizing only matters if that individual actually understands or actually engages in whatever thing they are trying to criticize. It would look very stupid for me to say, "Rap music is the work of the devil because most rappers sing about drugs, money, and sluts." Her case no matter if truth or false will always amount to nothing because she isn't a gamer. Gamers don't listen to non-gamers when it comes to games. Therefore she honestly needs to be put in her place. If she wants to change the gaming industry's and the gamer's themselves views of woman, she needs to actually gain their trust by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements.

 

[Pogilrup]

Here's the main difference, Yahtzee actually plays games and therefore what he says holds a lot more fucking merit than Anita does. Criticizing only matters if that individual actually understands or actually engages in whatever thing they are trying to criticize. It would look very stupid for me to say, "Rap music is the work of the devil because most rappers sing about drugs, money, and sluts." Her case no matter if truth or false will always amount to nothing because she isn't a gamer. Gamers don't listen to non-gamers when it comes to games. Therefore she honestly needs to be put in her place.

Then perhaps we should remove that gamer and non-gamer divide.

EDIT:

If she wants to change the gaming industry's and the gamer's themselves views of woman, she needs to actually gain their trust by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements.

"by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements."

What if she has played the games but rejects the common interpretation of the game?

 

[Artaneius]

no, thats not an excuse, you cant use lies to back up your arguments, she is doing more damage to the cause of better female characters in games than good

as for your second point, why doesnt she do that? instead of complaining all day about how sexist she THINKS video games are, why doesnt she study computer science alongside other feminist and make her own games? this is a free market and nowadays more than ever before in gaming history, anybody can make their game and sell it online, case and point:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312970/

instead of complaining she could try changing the situation, of course thatd take actual effort

she doesnt even address actual sexism problems in this industry, like the harassment the creator of Depression Quest received

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200770535

and still, she pressed on, she gained support, she got her game greenlit, she actually put some fucking effort on her personal struggle

If she is doing so much damage then why hasn't anyone else attempted to overtake her?

Upstage. Overshadow. Steal her thunder.

Personally I would do it my self. But since I am but a fan of videogames I would do it only after I got some developer credit under my belt.

because the world isnt that simple?

this is not up to debate, she is damaging to the cause, she is outright lying here, so unless you believe the proper way to defend an argument is by fabricating proof, i dont see how what she is doing isnt bad for the cause of better representing women in gaming

hell, what she is doing could be considered defamation, and therefore illegal

no, thats not an excuse, you cant use lies to back up your arguments, she is doing more damage to the cause of better female characters in games than good

as for your second point, why doesnt she do that? instead of complaining all day about how sexist she THINKS video games are, why doesnt she study computer science alongside other feminist and make her own games? this is a free market and nowadays more than ever before in gaming history, anybody can make their game and sell it online, case and point:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312970/

instead of complaining she could try changing the situation, of course thatd take actual effort

she doesnt even address actual sexism problems in this industry, like the harassment the creator of Depression Quest received

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=200770535

and still, she pressed on, she gained support, she got her game greenlit, she actually put some fucking effort on her personal struggle

If she is doing so much damage then why hasn't anyone else attempted to overtake her?

Upstage. Overshadow. Steal her thunder.

Personally I would do it my self. But since I am but a fan of videogames I would do it only after I got some developer credit under my belt.

When people try they get labeled "woman haters". Trust me, if they were no punishments or negative connotations involved, people would of already brought her down. Whether how her being taken down would be legal or not is left up to the imaginations of the individuals.

 

[Artaneius]

Here's the main difference, Yahtzee actually plays games and therefore what he says holds a lot more fucking merit than Anita does. Criticizing only matters if that individual actually understands or actually engages in whatever thing they are trying to criticize. It would look very stupid for me to say, "Rap music is the work of the devil because most rappers sing about drugs, money, and sluts." Her case no matter if truth or false will always amount to nothing because she isn't a gamer. Gamers don't listen to non-gamers when it comes to games. Therefore she honestly needs to be put in her place.

Then perhaps we should remove that gamer and non-gamer divide.

So I should be able to go to a doctor and ask questions that are completely different from medical field questions and expect a educated answer? Divides exist for a reason and common sense shouldn't be disrupted because people's feelings of what is politically correct get hurt.

 

[Artaneius]

Here's the main difference, Yahtzee actually plays games and therefore what he says holds a lot more fucking merit than Anita does. Criticizing only matters if that individual actually understands or actually engages in whatever thing they are trying to criticize. It would look very stupid for me to say, "Rap music is the work of the devil because most rappers sing about drugs, money, and sluts." Her case no matter if truth or false will always amount to nothing because she isn't a gamer. Gamers don't listen to non-gamers when it comes to games. Therefore she honestly needs to be put in her place.

Then perhaps we should remove that gamer and non-gamer divide.

EDIT:

If she wants to change the gaming industry's and the gamer's themselves views of woman, she needs to actually gain their trust by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements.

"by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements."

What if she has played the games but rejects the common interpretation of the game?

What if I go to the doctor and I was told I have cancer but I reject getting treatment because of religious views? Wouldn't I still be labeled stupid by the great majority of people who believe in doctors? Same principle. Don't expect the majority to care about people's personal views.

 

[Pogilrup]

When people try they get labeled "woman haters". Trust me, if they were no punishments or negative connotations involved, people would of already brought her down. Whether how her being taken down would be legal or not is left up to the imaginations of the individuals.

Most of those people never try to present themselves as an alternative.

The detractors are quite willing to destroy her arguments, but they seem never seek to appropriate her cause.

Sarkessian needs to be replaced, not demolished.

Here's the main difference, Yahtzee actually plays games and therefore what he says holds a lot more fucking merit than Anita does. Criticizing only matters if that individual actually understands or actually engages in whatever thing they are trying to criticize. It would look very stupid for me to say, "Rap music is the work of the devil because most rappers sing about drugs, money, and sluts." Her case no matter if truth or false will always amount to nothing because she isn't a gamer. Gamers don't listen to non-gamers when it comes to games. Therefore she honestly needs to be put in her place.

Then perhaps we should remove that gamer and non-gamer divide.

EDIT:

If she wants to change the gaming industry's and the gamer's themselves views of woman, she needs to actually gain their trust by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements.

"by actually PLAYING the games and making REAL educated opinions and statements."

What if she has played the games but rejects the common interpretation of the game?

What if I go to the doctor and I was told I have cancer but I reject getting treatment because of religious views? Wouldn't I still be labeled stupid by the great majority of people who believe in doctors? Same principle. Don't expect the majority to care about people's personal views.

This is art.

Art can be disputed.