Questions Regarding The Ending To Bioshock Infinite.

[Mikejames]

I think the Asian gunsmith is a good example of how there could be different Comstocks. Remember how at the start the idea of inter-racial marriage was completely outlawed but in some situations he is married to a white woman who has significant clout with the government? There are different Comstocks with different opinions which in turn led to different situations for Columbia.

There are infinite possibilities for Comstock so there could be one where Columbia is a complete utopia of equality, fairness and love of all creatures great and small... and one guarded by flying sharks with lasers on their heads.

So the collateral damage in drowning all versions of Comstock was destroying any potential alternate Columbia that was genuinely awesome. That's saddening.
For all we know there were several different Comstocks taking Anna away from a drunken abusive version of Booker, and then proceeding to turn Columbia into a traveling circus.

 

[Mikejames]

Let me put it this way. What we're looking at is a terrible ending, not a Mass Effect 3 level of horrible, but a case where a bunch of writers who couldn't think of what to do decided to resort to the laziest possible way of trying to be profound: that is the creation of an infinite paradox. In the final equasion a lot of questions here can't be answered, which is kind of the point, it generates a lot of discussion for the point of discussion, and we see it every time someone does something generally good up until this kind of a lazy ending. As far as fandom goes we've more or less
been here with things like "Lost" before.

Indeed the nature of the ending seemed to have been leaked before the game came out, because I seem to remember hearing what the "infinite" subtitle meant before it even came out.

Your absolutly correct though, that by it's own intristic logic there would be a lot of cases where Booker was baptized but wasn't quite the same person he was when it broke down into the "sides" as we know them. Heck there would logically be dimensions where his baptism was a good thing, and "Comstock" was an outright benevolent figure. In the scope of this game it would be sort of like DC's parallel universe where Superman is a villain, and Lex Luthor is the world's greatest hero, etc...

That said, I'd imagine some of these questions are inherantly being held off for DLC. It's important to note that "Bioshock: Infinite", is not a complete game. Tons of DLC rounding it out was planned right from the beginning, this game getting attention due to being a high profile release that was also trying to get people to pre-order the DLC.

I sort of suspect that half the point of the lazy ending and all the "questions" and logical faults present within it, is specifically to get people to buy the DLC in hopes that they will clarify things and come up with a more solid ending.

That said as far as quality and pretty much everything up until the ending Bioshock is a pretty damn good game, my biggest concern (Elizabeth as a companion) was dispelled early, and it's probably going to set a standard as to what AI companion characters should be from here on if nothing else. Despite it's incredibly high reviews I am sort of wondering how well the game will fare reputation wise a few years after it's final DLC is released. Speaking for myself I think the original "Bioshock" was better because love it or hate it, it's storyline and reveals all wrapped up nicely, there wasn't the same kind of discussion along the lines "yeah well, I get what they are saying, but if that follows wouldn't this mean that this and that other thing are by definition true, which makes their entire ending and it's logic questionable" for weeks after it's release.

Ambiguous endings can always be hit or miss; though they always make me kick myself if I can't appreciate them without looking up online explanations.
I assumed that any DLC would be a standalone story, but I guess more plot follow-ups are always a possibility. Could be interesting, but a shame they wouldn't be in the full game.

Infinite wasn't bad, but I may continue to hold the first Bioshock highest in terms of tight narrative and satisfying conclusiveness. I liked Elizabeth, I liked the buildup behind Booker's flashbacks, and I loved the Luteces, but I wish the pacing and explanations had more room to breathe rather than having us skip ahead to the end of the revolution and gunning for a final act. Plus you can't beat the buildup that Ryan and Cohen had as antagonists. I can barely remember Fink in comparison.

 

[Abomination]

I think the Asian gunsmith is a good example of how there could be different Comstocks. Remember how at the start the idea of inter-racial marriage was completely outlawed but in some situations he is married to a white woman who has significant clout with the government? There are different Comstocks with different opinions which in turn led to different situations for Columbia.

There are infinite possibilities for Comstock so there could be one where Columbia is a complete utopia of equality, fairness and love of all creatures great and small... and one guarded by flying sharks with lasers on their heads.

So the collateral damage in drowning all versions of Comstock was destroying any potential alternate Columbia that was genuinely awesome. That's saddening.
For all we know there were several different Comstocks taking Anna away from a drunken abusive version of Booker, and then proceeding to turn Columbia into a traveling circus.

Don't forget about all the kids born on Columbia whose parents only got together because they met on Columbia.

It sort of makes Booker and Elizabeth look like REALLY selfish pricks when you consider the rammifications for ending an infinite number of realities because they're sad Elizabeth lost a finger and can't go to Paris... or whatever.

 

[Mikejames]

Don't forget about all the kids born on Columbia whose parents only got together because they met on Columbia.

It sort of makes Booker and Elizabeth look like REALLY selfish pricks when you consider the rammifications for ending an infinite number of realities because they're sad Elizabeth lost a finger and can't go to Paris... or whatever.

It's worth noting that they could have just left to Paris. Comstock was dead, Columbia was lost, and they were free without needing to change all of reality.

I suppose the idea was that they were trying to prevent bad things from happening in the first place, or having worse outcomes in other realities, but of course there were going to be bad things that happened in some form no matter what they did. We just know that our Booker's version of Anna won't be kidnapped in that instance, and the version of Comstock we knew wouldn't come to fruition. What that spells out for Booker, alternate Elizabeth, the Luteces, and the rest of time and space is up for speculation.

 

[Abomination]

Don't forget about all the kids born on Columbia whose parents only got together because they met on Columbia.

It sort of makes Booker and Elizabeth look like REALLY selfish pricks when you consider the rammifications for ending an infinite number of realities because they're sad Elizabeth lost a finger and can't go to Paris... or whatever.

It's worth noting that they could have just left to Paris. Comstock was dead, Columbia was lost, and they were free without needing to change all of reality.

I suppose the idea was that they were trying to prevent bad things from happening in the first place, or having worse outcomes in other realities, but of course there were going to be bad things that happened in some form no matter what they did. We just know that our Booker's version of Anna won't be kidnapped in that instance, and the version of Comstock we knew wouldn't come to fruition. What that spells out for Booker, alternate Elizabeth, the Luteces, and the rest of time and space is up for speculation.

So you end up just where you started: what was the point of it all?!

Booker did all these things, reunited with his daughter (who I must say is a terribly intelligent and capable young woman) who now has her whole life ahead of her and is able to do whatever she pleases... and they just decide to essentially commit suicide.

Sure, they prevent dickhead Comstock from ever existing but they also therefore prevent charitable Comstock from ever doing great and wonderful things in other realities. They just killed unlimited billions of people because Booker and Lizzie felt bad about killing a few hundred or ten-hundred thousand people.

 

[Mikejames]

So you end up just where you started: what was the point of it all?!

Booker did all these things, reunited with his daughter (who I must say is a terribly intelligent and capable young woman) who now has her whole life ahead of her and is able to do whatever she pleases... and they just decide to essentially commit suicide.

Sure, they prevent dickhead Comstock from ever existing but they also therefore prevent charitable Comstock from ever doing great and wonderful things in other realities. They just killed unlimited billions of people because Booker and Lizzie felt bad about killing a few hundred or ten-hundred thousand people.

Ay I didn't make the choice, I'm just looking for justification in the reasoning behind it.

It's not suicide for Elizabeth per se, though the exact version we see of her may never come to be. I suppose the theme they were going for was an idea of trying to start over with different potential for the future rather than trying to move on with what they had. New people will be born, new people will die. Too many variables. I probably would have opted to just put the past behind us and keep going to Paris were we given the choice.

 

[WanderingFool]

Oh and if you can be arsed read this:

http://michaelthekyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/understanding-bioshock-infinites-ending.html

Pretty neatly explains most things, or at the very least gives the most in depth discussion I've found.

Spoiler

The only thing that I don't understand is how Comstock is so racist, since Booker seems to be fine with minorities even though he has 'reason' to hate them (wounded knee, boxer etc).

Nice read, and to try and answer your question, He got religion, and took it to the extreme (any releigion, when taken to the extreme, will end up wrong.)

 

[scorptatious]

One thing I don't get is:

Spoiler

At what point did Booker became two different people: The Booker you play as, and Comstock. How did they end up in the same world?

 

[Mikejames]

One thing I don't get is:

Spoiler

At what point did Booker became two different people: The Booker you play as, and Comstock. How did they end up in the same world?

I think the Luteces brought the Booker we play into Comstock's reality, 20 years after Comstock took Anna from his reality.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

Spoiler

I have a question regarding the near-end:
When did they go back to the original universe?
You can tell it's the original because Elizabeth's tower is destroyed but after the future Comstock House segment, Old Elizabeth sends you back to the universe you were in before you crossed into the hidden tear on the bridge.
But THAT universe was the second one Elizabeth and Booker jump into during the Gunsmith section.
So when did they go back to the original universe and for that matter, where was the other Bookers and Elizabeths in those universes?
I'm sorry if this is confusing but that's the best way I can word this question.

 

[Abomination]

I have a question regarding the near-end:
When did they go back to the original universe?
You can tell it's the original because Elizabeth's tower is destroyed but after the future Comstock House segment, Old Elizabeth sends you back to the universe you were in before you crossed into the hidden tear on the bridge.
But THAT universe was the second one Elizabeth and Booker jump into during the Gunsmith section.
So when did they go back to the original universe and for that matter, where was the other Bookers and Elizabeths in those universes?
I'm sorry if this is confusing but that's the best way I can word this question.

This entire thread is spoiler, no need to have the tag around stuff.

To your question, a question; what is the "original" universe? Because Booker's and Elizabeth's are both different. Booker's universe doesn't have a Columbia, he mentions that he had never heard of it but there are newspapers all over the place illustrating how it was identified as a pseudo-state of America.

I also don't believe they ever do "return". The universe that Booker drowns Comstock in the baptism birdbath was the 2nd tear Elizabeth opens that they both travel through after Booker finds her. The next trip they make together is to Rapture and never return to the 2nd tear.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

I have a question regarding the near-end:
When did they go back to the original universe?
You can tell it's the original because Elizabeth's tower is destroyed but after the future Comstock House segment, Old Elizabeth sends you back to the universe you were in before you crossed into the hidden tear on the bridge.
But THAT universe was the second one Elizabeth and Booker jump into during the Gunsmith section.
So when did they go back to the original universe and for that matter, where was the other Bookers and Elizabeths in those universes?
I'm sorry if this is confusing but that's the best way I can word this question.

This entire thread is spoiler, no need to have the tag around stuff.

To your question, a question; what is the "original" universe? Because Booker's and Elizabeth's are both different. Booker's universe doesn't have a Columbia, he mentions that he had never heard of it but there are newspapers all over the place illustrating how it was identified as a pseudo-state of America.

I also don't believe they ever do "return". The universe that Booker drowns Comstock in the baptism birdbath was the 2nd tear Elizabeth opens that they both travel through after Booker finds her. The next trip they make together is to Rapture and never return to the 2nd tear.

Let's just define the "original" as the one your in at the start of the game, when you're in the boat and such.
Anyway.
I'm sorry for my inferior intellect but I don't get what you're saying (or at least the way you worded it).
Basically what I'm asking is:
Where were the other Bookers or Elizabeths in the tears that you jump into during the Gunsmith section?
And when did they go back to the "original" universe? Because you can see that Elizabeth's tower is destroyed. And you watched that destruction happen near the beginning of the game so I figured that this is the "original" universe. Or did they just jump into one of those universes where pretty much everything is similar to the "original"?
And for reference, which one would be the "second" tear? Just want to make sure we're on the same page.

 

[chikusho]

What irks me the most here is, what version of Booker Dewitt are we playing through the game with? And when exactly was Anna/Elizabeth born?

Let's put it like this. After Wounded Knee, Booker goes to the baptism and either goes through with it and becomes Comstock, or rejects it and remains Booker.

After rejecting the baptism and remaining Booker he has Anna, whom is subsequently stolen by Comstock.

If this is the case, how does it help for Elizabeth to drown post-baptism Booker at the time of the Baptism?
Wouldn't she need to drown pre-baptism Booker to kill the fork in realities?
Also, if post-baptism Booker is the one that fathers Anna/Elizabeth, doesn't that make the final ending sequence (when booker calls for Anna in his apartment) either impossible or irrelevant?

If we're playing as pre-baptism Booker, he needs to have already had and lost Anna for him to construct the "Get the girl, lose the debt" reasoning when entering Columbia, right?
Or have the Lutece's simply jammed his head with a false reality to begin with?

Finally, it's weird how he remembers leading the Vox rebellion when he steps over to that dimension, but he doesn't remember creating Columbia when he enters the initial one.

 

[Abomination]

Let's just define the "original" as the one your in at the start of the game, when you're in the boat and such.

That would be Elizabeth's universe.

Where were the other Bookers or Elizabeths in the tears that you jump into during the Gunsmith section?

Great question - it's never explicitly explained. Elizabeth suspects that the universe is created when she needs it to in the manner she wants. The problem being her creation is rather focused and she just wants a universe where the gunsmith is still alive without going into specifics so a situation is created where it does occur and they did everything they already did. The issue there is that she doesn't get everything right so there are guards who should be dead but aren't. Remember, her abilities are limited due to the power siphon she was living next to most of her life.

And when did they go back to the "original" universe? Because you can see that Elizabeth's tower is destroyed. And you watched that destruction happen near the beginning of the game so I figured that this is the "original" universe. Or did they just jump into one of those universes where pretty much everything is similar to the "original"?
And for reference, which one would be the "second" tear? Just want to make sure we're on the same page.

You never travel back to the same universe until the ending 'cinematic' where you get off the boat again, even then it could just be a focal point rather than actual time travel.

The first tear is when you arrive to find the gunsmith is dead and so Elizabeth creates a universe where he is alive. They find the gunsmith and realize he's gone mad due to being both alive and dead. They decide that the best way to cure him would be to return his tools to him. Unfortunately they discover that the tools could never be moved without manpower so Elizabeth creates a world where the Vox do have the tools. This is the second tear. Of course they don't realize that if the Vox have the tools there's no need for the gun deal and thus Booker has no gun deal to cash in on when he points out he got the weapons for the Vox - so no airship for him. During this period of the game Elizabeth and Booker are like cavemen playing with nuclear weapons, they have no idea as to the ramifications of their decisions.

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

Let's just define the "original" as the one your in at the start of the game, when you're in the boat and such.

That would be Elizabeth's universe.

Where were the other Bookers or Elizabeths in the tears that you jump into during the Gunsmith section?

Great question - it's never explicitly explained. Elizabeth suspects that the universe is created when she needs it to in the manner she wants. The problem being her creation is rather focused and she just wants a universe where the gunsmith is still alive without going into specifics so a situation is created where it does occur and they did everything they already did. The issue there is that she doesn't get everything right so there are guards who should be dead but aren't. Remember, her abilities are limited due to the power siphon she was living next to most of her life.

And when did they go back to the "original" universe? Because you can see that Elizabeth's tower is destroyed. And you watched that destruction happen near the beginning of the game so I figured that this is the "original" universe. Or did they just jump into one of those universes where pretty much everything is similar to the "original"?
And for reference, which one would be the "second" tear? Just want to make sure we're on the same page.

You never travel back to the same universe until the ending 'cinematic' where you get off the boat again, even then it could just be a focal point rather than actual time travel.

The first tear is when you arrive to find the gunsmith is dead and so Elizabeth creates a universe where he is alive. They find the gunsmith and realize he's gone mad due to being both alive and dead. They decide that the best way to cure him would be to return his tools to him. Unfortunately they discover that the tools could never be moved without manpower so Elizabeth creates a world where the Vox do have the tools. This is the second tear. Of course they don't realize that if the Vox have the tools there's no need for the gun deal and thus Booker has no gun deal to cash in on when he points out he got the weapons for the Vox - so no airship for him. During this period of the game Elizabeth and Booker are like cavemen playing with nuclear weapons, they have no idea as to the ramifications of their decisions.

You gave me a bit more information than I needed but I think I got it.
So they're in the second tear at the end of the game (before the FINAL ending sequence where they're jumping through tears left and right) and this tear is MOSTLY the same as the "original" universe, hence the destroyed tower, it's just that now the Vox have the tools for guns.
Do I have that right?
Except for the Vox having tools and Booker leading the Vox, everything else is pretty much the same?

 

[TheUsername0131]

Is there a quantum physicist in the house? Because I've got some issues with the ending to Bioshock Infinite.

This begs to differ: Click Here [http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/PDF/multiverse_sciam.pdf]

"There are worlds beyond this one, worlds as we've never seen...nor can we...Our eyes do not open far enough...Try it...try holding your eyes open...you can try holding them open as much as you want, but you'll never see...never ever see...The world beyond the veil...the Veil of Reality...It's there to protect us, from them:the Ancients...the Darkness...that...which...we...CANNOT... understand.Nor should we...Welcome the oblivion of ignorance!!For to have knowledge...is to be DAMNED!!"

 

[TheUsername0131]

On Elizabeth Powers:

The first tear is when you arrive to find the gunsmith is dead and so Elizabeth creates a universe where he is alive. They find the gunsmith and realize he's gone mad due to being both alive and dead. They decide that the best way to cure him would be to return his tools to him. Unfortunately they discover that the tools could never be moved without manpower so Elizabeth creates a world where the Vox do have the tools. This is the second tear. Of course they don't realize that if the Vox have the tools there's no need for the gun deal and thus Booker has no gun deal to cash in on when he points out he got the weapons for the Vox - so no airship for him. During this period of the game Elizabeth and Booker are like cavemen playing with nuclear weapons, they have no idea as to the ramifications of their decisions.

I came upon the wounded knight and the six dead men. Had I chosen to walk on by, I could have reached a place where the six men lay dead and the knight stood unwounded?or a place where he lay dead and they stood laughing. Some would say it did not really matter, since all these things are possibilities, and therefore all of them exist somewhere in Shadow.
-The Guns of Avalon by Roger Zelazny

Can Elizabeth open a tear to a world that consisted of nothing but freshly baked pastries?

 

[scorptatious]

You know, I think I just realized something about the ending:

Spoiler

At the end of the credits, there was a short scene showing Booker in his office again, and he enters Anna's room one last time before the game ends.

Thinking about it now, it actually kinda makes me happy. Since the Booker that became Comstock has drowned, that means the Booker who rejected the baptism probably never sold Anna, and they probably went on to live a happy life together. :')

 

[TheUsername0131]

The best analysis of the ending is on NeoGaf,

Spoiler: Massive Bioshock: Infinite spoilers, you have been warned

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533205

Really in depth with graphs and flow charts laying out all the different timelines and how they intersect, plus some speculation based on the science behind theoretical physics and how the constants and variables in the storyline might affect different outcomes.