RAM: Old and Gray

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NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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One of the most consistent cycles in the Escapist community comes in two solid waves. The first wave is a series of older members talking about how the influx of new members are the cancer that is killing e. The next wave, that takes place about a week later, is a bunch of new members crying foul about being picked on for nothing other than their join date. Both parties stubbornly set their jaws, and point the accusatory finger in the other direction. Not because either party honestly finds the other at fault, but because neither party is willing to accept that they're personally responsible.

The truth of the matter is there is no single, solid, uniform reason as to why the Escapist is better or worse now, then, or will be better or worse in the future. If I had to think of any one person or object to blame, it would be the community at large. The whole thing, end to end.

But don't get ahead of me.

The largest issue I have with the community on the Escapist is that it is fundamentally different than it was when I first joined. The fundamental difference is how the community handles itself. It's a matter of details, but no less important for the effort. The difference is between the words "persons" and "people." Mostly that the forums were once comprised almost entirely of persons, and they are now a people. The difference isn't as negligible as it seems.

Formerly, the forums were composed largely of persons. Which is also part of the reason so many members reflect fondly on Joe when he was a mod. It's not that his moderation was any better, just that it was more personal. He wasn't just suspending a user, he was personally ensuring that you were getting your punishment for your indiscretion. It's because everything from end to end was just that much more personal. Every post was a hand-crafted article or idea, written with care and devotion to the time. When a new thread came up, which was only five to ten per day, everyone had the time to really set their feet with the idea. Counter-points were written with as much care, devotion, and time. Every single person had the time to settle down for discussions. The friends made at the time were more capable of conveying friendship than just a name on a friend list. It meant more personal interaction.

More lately, there just isn't the time for that kind of treatment. If any one user sits down to write a long idea on a thread, a lot of little things are different. Fewer persons read it, instead favoring the more people-friendly shorter topics. Because the views go down, the responses also drop, both in quality and size. When there are responses, anyone who goes through the time to write out a matching reply loses out on the passing of other threads, which now number in the tens per hour. Which is astronomically fast compared to the previous speed. Which isn't to say its better or worse, just different. And that's just in one respect. It also means that persons know fewer persons, instead persons get to know the people. Just as any user can see with decent consistency that threads about Half-Life will get more praise than those about Halo. The same goes for topics like Twilight, or Modern Warfare 2, or Vegetarianism, or any number of other frequent discussions that tend to go in a single direction.

The reason for this mass appeal is it becomes less about persons, and more about a people. A single, solitary, collective mass of people. They'll move more like a people, think more like a people, talk more like a people, and care more like a people. There are exceptions, certainly, but its not the same. It's easier to care about a group of 5 friends than a group of 500 peers. For example, a user should try to step out of their comfort zone, their group of friends, and try to learn about all the other groups of users. I'm familiar with a handful of Escapists from the RP sections, especially those I've been in an RP with. But for folks like thebobmaster and Neonbob, whom I've hardly met. What little I know of them is just in passing. In the same way, I'm hardly familiar with Furburt or Hubilub, despite knowing of them. I couldn't tell you anything about ExcitedNuke or tellmeimninja. Sure, I recognize their avatars, but they're just part of the collective mass of people to me.

Now, I could tell you Labyrinth's first name, just as I could pick her out of a crowd. I could tell you what city Xitel lives in, what job Baby_Tea has, and what Galletea studied in college. I know these guys, they're my personal friends. As cold and detached as it sounds, they aren't just part of the collective people to me. They're my friends, whom I can realistically say I care more for than any of the other names in the list above. Is it fair? Certainly not, but it's that they're persons to me. Just like Fire Daemon or Khell_Sennet. Just like seeing PedroSteckecilo leaving, or knowing Cahlee isn't around much anymore. They're persons to me, just as the forums was filled with persons before.

Now its a people. They- no... We think as a people. We start to feel each other out, we know how the mass will react, and we act as a people instead of as persons. For the old and gray, it means a sign of change. Less warm, less caring, less personal. Now all it seems is cold, uncaring, and unfeeling. It becomes harder to pick out persons, and simply to see them - us - as Legion. A single mass of people.

The biggest issue is that it's almost impossible to break up, because it's self-feeding. For every wave of new users that comes in, they have their own group. Friends have trouble breaking away from friends, and it ends up being cyclical. We can try to intermingle, with some success, but it's imperfect. Because for the old and gray, it's not the same. Nor will it ever be.

But all of life is like that. Work places have their groups, as do schools, gyms, clubs, whatever. People will naturally have their groups of persons, and the rest are the cold, the uncaring, the people. But the issue comes from the time when it wasn't that way. There was once a time where everyone knew everyone, and we were persons. That time is passed, though. We're a people now. Like it or not, it's what we've got.

What does it mean? In the long run, very little. Hopefully, though, we'll see a future of less worry about where the forums have been, and where they're going. It's a community, change will happen, and things will stay the same.

If nothing else, I'll raise my glass to hope.
 

Superbeast

Bound up the dead triumphantly!
Jan 7, 2009
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You know, I think you've put the finger on what's been bugging me.

A year ago, when I was considering joining, it was because everyone seemed so friendly and knew everyone else - *that* is what made this place different (not the level of discussion, thinking honestly about it...though there was obviously less posts/hour so the lower-quality threads were moderated more quickly - just the issues of a growing forum).

However it was quite difficult to break into any friendship groups, so I kinda hovered on the fringes and just stuck to posting in Off Topic. Nowadays there are just so many people, that are just one-of-a-people that it seems very difficult to connect with someone (recent week excepted - I've doubled the number of friends I had this week thanks to some really great people joining).

For example I've just joined a new user group, and I was thinking I had been getting to know the "regulars" of this site quite well...yet there are people posting in there that have been here for longer than I that I have never heard of (and I'm still not sure how to get "in" the group, as opposed to just being a member if you get what I mean - the group is obviously very tight-knit and I feel a bit awkward just jumping in and saying "Hi!").

The only reason the older-and-greyer posters (and I count myself amongst them, even though I'm not that old, but because I joined when the forum *appeared* to have a different ethos) think things have changed is due to expansion - as I mentioned above. More people means higher percentages of idiots, and more for the Mods to go through and so more of the "less desirable" threads stick around for longer. However there are a lot more intelligent people too, which is a really good thing. So it's not that the *forum* has changed, it's just the *community* which has changed through necessity because of the boom in popularity of the site...though whether the turn the community has taken is for the better or for the worse I can't really say.

Great post, loads to think about.

And it's great to see you posting round here again, NewClassic. Was beginning to think you'd dropped of the radar!
 

Puppeteer Putin

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Jan 3, 2009
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Very well said Nuke. The only sound deconstruction of the situation I've heard in a long time.

Oddly enough change is always occuring and yet it's what people fear the most, hence its cyclical nature. A norm is never truly set in concrete in any community, social or professional. Furthermore if it's lef to it's own devices, the few loudest and most outraged will tend to dictate the course of change.

That is why there are such things as "Comminity Managers" and "Change Agents" in other organisations. The idea is to regulate the community in it's constant flux. It's not the same job as a mod, as that's just blamming people for not adhereing to the rules - but bringing people together for events and competitions and ensuring that any friction is dealt with in a civil, intelligent manner.

Hell, when I arrived the contests seemed to run on a fortnightly basis, whether it was a Member competition like the Monthly Arts Labyrinth set up or an official one that the staff initiated. There just aren't as many proactive activities on the site as there were. It's all passive entertainment. That isn't a bad thing, but the content and medium often dictates the audience. When it was just a written publication, there were few who were keen to debate the finner points of the gaming culture. Being nit-picky elitist analysts is what we were, until the younger, more wide spread video audience came in.
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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Apr 8, 2009
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I very much consider myself part of the 'new wave' here on the Escapist, having arrived here for no other reason than a link to a Zero Punctuation video (posted on 4chan's /v/, to add imaginary insult to perceived injury), but I am very much aware of the process you describe, and have experienced its effects first-hand on several different forums.

The most annoying part to me, while realizing that I am just as much to blame for this as anyone else, is the way people respond to threads. As I mentioned in another thread, I made a thread about something game-related that I felt strongly about in an attempt to start a meaningful discussion on the subject, but most of what I ende up doing was repeating myself over and over for four pages because everyone felt entitled to share their opinion without even trying to keep any real discussion going apart from the occasionally quoted post. Some time after that I made another thread containing something that required a minimal amount of reading or writing and didn't contain anything worth thinking about for more than three seconds, and it immediately reached more than 10 pages.

Needless to say this annoyed me, but I guess it's only logical. The only alternative is to change forums whenever the current one gets too populous, but I feel I've done my share of forumhopping, and it's time to stick around a bit.

For now.
 

grimsprice

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Jun 28, 2009
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Indeed. Simply indeed.

A collection of words, smithed far better than i ever could.

I came here because of a few interesting threads. and stayed because i got a taste of the old. I started to make friends. Meeting, "persons". Like xmetaronx, azzreil (i haven't seen him in so long i forgot how to spell it), as much as i hate to say... akai is my mortal enemy. And others of course. But where are they? Metarons post above mine is the first time i've seen him in months!!!! How am i supposed to make friends when they are around... just lost in the crowd. Oh well.
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
Legacy
Aug 15, 2008
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A growing forum is bound to have teething problems. Bare with everyone and you will be rewarded as such.

[sub]Also; Just ignore Furburt, he may be absorbed by his own post count in the end[/sub]
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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xmetatr0nx said:
With people taking it way too seriously.
Oddly enough, this is a stance that is a lot easier to take with people than with persons. It's a pedantic point, which I freely admit, but it matters to some folks. The question is does everyone not care about the community or the state of the forums, or just you? It depends on how a person feels about the people, or persons, in a community. So it varies.

Too seriously, or not seriously enough? I care enough about the community to write this thread answering a question I see asked often enough, The Escapist cares enough to pay Kuliani to do this sort of research, organization, and community projects, and you care enough to hop on this thread and tell me I'm taking it to seriously. Who cares? We all do, just in different ways.

Puppeteer Putin said:
Being nit-picky elitist analysts is what we were, until the younger, more wide spread video audience came in.
Nit-picky? You misspelled "Community." Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure that this is entirely accurate. This is part of the problem, in its own right. We see a group of persons, and classify them as a people. It's easier to see a people as such. So we can regard ourselves as once-picky. But they might be just as inclined for the grammatical or logical intricacies. As the older users, how much of their young, brashness have we simply ret-conned onto them as a people instead of accepting them (and them to us) as persons?

hURR dURR dERP said:
The most annoying part to me, while realizing that I am just as much to blame for this as anyone else, is the way people respond to threads.
Part of the issue here is that this can't really be helped. To point, when I started writing this post, Off-Topic had 1698803 posts total. So taking the time to pick your post down to its component parts, trying to find the best point to build on or discuss, has lead to the total post count being 1698828. Comparing the differences (25), it's pretty easy to see how I alone have missed a number of posts to read while just writing.

The reason is that the forums move more as a people than persons, as explained above. Not better, not worse, just different. Faster, to be sure, meaning its more difficult to really rationalize longer posts like these.

TimeLord said:
Also; Just ignore Furburt, he may be absorbed by his own post count in the end.
My question for you is why should I ignore Furburt? Simply because of his post-count? Isn't that just as bad as ignoring you for relative your lack-thereof?
 

Azure-Supernova

La-li-lu-le-lo!
Aug 5, 2009
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I am more and more intrigued about the Old Escapist I keep hearing about. Because it sounds like a good place. The sole reason I joined this place is because it had a more personal feel to it, though coming from the cold steel prison that is GameSpot, it was a big leap.

I do fear that perhaps some of the older member idolize this Golden Age. Though reading some of the threads around, I'm partially to blame perhaps. Though that isn't to say I haven't made an effort to get to know people better, more specifically the people that have added me as a friend or whom I have added myself.

I'm definitely part of the most recent wave of members, having only joined in late 09. And I'm not a particularly known user either. There seems to be a big thing about people being judged by their post count, which is a bit on the silly side. I just post when I've got something I wanna say, though I'm guilty myself in making one or two half assed threads.

Sometimes intelligent conversation seems to be sacrificed for the sake of humour, something I've noticed in a great deal of threads and something I'm guilty of myself. Every now and then there will be a good topic, but we're all so busy trying to scream our own opinions at the top of our lungs, there's never any room for actual discussion. It just ends up with a series of posts of "I think that..." and "In my opinion..." or "Fuck you, I don't think that..."
 

Lyri

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Dec 8, 2008
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We're like the machines we're connected too, busy reading to much into the zero and ones of our post counts than the people behind them.
 

Hurr Durr Derp

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Apr 8, 2009
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NewClassic said:
hURR dURR dERP said:
The most annoying part to me, while realizing that I am just as much to blame for this as anyone else, is the way people respond to threads.
Part of the issue here is that this can't really be helped. To point, when I started writing this post, Off-Topic had 1698803 posts total. So taking the time to pick your post down to its component parts, trying to find the best point to build on or discuss, has lead to the total post count being 1698828. Comparing the differences (25), it's pretty easy to see how I alone have missed a number of posts to read while just writing.

The reason is that the forums move more as a people than persons, as explained above. Not better, not worse, just different. Faster, to be sure, meaning its more difficult to really rationalize longer posts like these.
It's not so much the amount of posts made as the amount of effort that goes into each individual post, both in writing the actual post and reading the discussion that took place before it. I'd rather get ten excellent replies than a hundred two-line messages saying more or less the same thing.

But as I said, I realise I'm as much to blame for this as anyone else. I can't spend all day online, so when I'm killing some time it's easier to make ten meaningless replies to meaningless threads than it is to write one well-written and intelligent post.
 

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
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I think part of the problem is not so much people don't read longer, well-thought out columns, but that those who read might be daunted into replying. I mean, take this post for example: you state your opinions on quite a few issues, and all are linked in some form or another, so it's hard for the reader to pinpoint something to discuss. I mean, I'm having trouble typing this because of this reason; for the sake of space, I don't want to address all of the points in your article, but even just picking a few is difficult.

Which makes shorter, cookie-cutter threads so appealing. Shorter posts means that the collective people can digest it all in one sitting, and get by with shorter posts--my favorite game is xxx, the protagonist from xxx is smug and arrogant, etc. And I agree with you that this masks our individual identities onto one, faceless legion. Without longer posts, we can't always discern every person's individual nuances, their specific personality, what makes them tick, to use a cliche'. It's just a post n' run mentality.

I think part of the reason why the forum is changing from persons to a people (and, to be honest, I'm taking your word for it. I haven't been here long enough to differentiate that) is that the magazine's base is growing rapidly with each passing day. I mean, if we assume that most people come here for Zero Punctuation, which seems to be the case, then we have an influx of new devotees to Camp Yahtzee. This, in turn, can create a domino effect, as they will spread the news of Yahtzee's existence by word of mouth, which starts the cycle over again. Now, if we assume that this influx is primarily of younger forum-goers, then we start to see the homogenizing of the masses. For some, this might be their only experience with a forum; others might come from other communities with different posting styles, like Gaia Online, GameSpot, or a certain online image board which shall not be named.

Now, if this is true, then we can assume one of three things: one, that, with no posting experience, newcomers will merely adopt the prevalent posting style, which would be the homogenizing style that's prevalent on The Escapist today; two, that newcomers to these forums will use their native posting style, which can vary the flavor of the forums dramatically; or three, that the newcomers will shun the homogenized posts and attempt to mimic threads such as this, which can have a reversing effect.

Of course, I could be horribly, horribly wrong about this. And, seeing as I don't know where I'm going with this, I'll just stop now before my ramblings go on for too long, which kinda contradicts my idea of saving space. Whoops.

I enjoy reading your articles, though. You're a very well-spoken individual.
 

Azure-Supernova

La-li-lu-le-lo!
Aug 5, 2009
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TimeLord said:
Also; Just ignore Furburt, he may be absorbed by his own post count in the end.
My question for you is why should I ignore Furburt? Simply because of his post-count? Isn't that just as bad as ignoring you for relative your lack-thereof?[/quote]

I'm just going to inject a little bit here.

I think that a lot of poster put more effort into their overall post count, rather their individual posts. Posts seem to be some form of representation of a users reknown, so a poster that makes 1000 slash dot posts is likely to be more notable than a user that has made 200 or so meaningful posts.
 

Superbeast

Bound up the dead triumphantly!
Jan 7, 2009
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Heart of Darkness said:
*snip*

Which makes shorter, cookie-cutter threads so appealing. Shorter posts means that the collective people can digest it all in one sitting, and get by with shorter posts--my favorite game is xxx, the protagonist from xxx is smug and arrogant, etc. And I agree with you that this masks our individual identities onto one, faceless legion. Without longer posts, we can't always discern every person's individual nuances, their specific personality, what makes them tick, to use a cliche'. It's just a post n' run mentality.

*snip*
Another well thought-out post - I've selected the bit that drew my attention.

Since I've commented on the "thread issue" in other topics around this nature, I would just like to say that none of the people that have been here for a while take umbrage of shorter threads per se. If someone can provide a thought-provoking, discussion-inducing thread with only a few lines and/or supported with a quote, then it's perfectly acceptable and probably preferable to the larger blocks of text (as people do skip over the longer-winded posts).

However there is an issue of...annoyance...with threads that are just "what's your favourite X". Sure, they are short-posts and only require short answers, so they gain a lot of replies. However there is no discussion for the most part, and quite a risk of things dissolving into hostilities as one side attacks the other over their choice in X - particularly if it's music or videogames.

And it's not just the post-and-run and lack of discussion that infuriates people either, it's the fact that topics usually get buried very quickly (look where the similar topic to this has gone, and that was only being addressed last night - page 9 or something now). So they crop up again a day or two later. Seeing "What's your favourite X[sub]1[/sub]" a couple of days or a week after the last thread on the topic just becomes a pain - particularly if it's a hostile thread such as say...about Halo. And even more-so when it spawns an offspring topic of "What's wrong with X[sub]1[/sub]" that degenerates even faster than the topic it came from.

But anyway this is now going way off-topic, as although this posting nature is an effect of the community currently on the Escapist, it is not actually *about* the changing nature of the community itself. But I just wanted to mention, and clarify a thing or two as I may have given the wrong impression in a previous thread.
 

Lord Krunk

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Mar 3, 2008
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NewClassic said:
Now, I could tell you Labyrinth's first name, just as I could pick her out of a crowd. I could tell you what city Xitel lives in, what job Baby_Tea has, and what Galletea studied in college. I know these guys, they're my personal friends. As cold and detached as it sounds, they aren't just part of the collective people to me. They're my friends, whom I can realistically say I care more for than any of the other names in the list above. Is it fair? Certainly not, but it's that they're persons to me. Just like Fire Daemon or Khell_Sennet. Just like seeing PedroSteckecilo leaving, or knowing Cahlee isn't around much anymore. They're persons to me, just as the forums was filled with persons before.
There's never a day that I miss knowing everyone on the forum. About a year ago, there was just too many for me to keep up with the new users though. And with so many of the people I know and love leaving for parts unknown, I really feel like one man, alone, in a sea of people.

To quote the Crocotta from Supernatural, 'You've never been so connected, but you've never felt so alone'.

Anyway, call me nostalgic, but I do miss the old Escapist. But finding a discussion board as good as it was will be too hard.

EDIT: It's way too hard to make a serious face with the avatar... but I love it so.
 

tijuanatim

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Sep 24, 2008
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Lord Krunk said:
NewClassic said:
Now, I could tell you Labyrinth's first name, just as I could pick her out of a crowd. I could tell you what city Xitel lives in, what job Baby_Tea has, and what Galletea studied in college. I know these guys, they're my personal friends. As cold and detached as it sounds, they aren't just part of the collective people to me. They're my friends, whom I can realistically say I care more for than any of the other names in the list above. Is it fair? Certainly not, but it's that they're persons to me. Just like Fire Daemon or Khell_Sennet. Just like seeing PedroSteckecilo leaving, or knowing Cahlee isn't around much anymore. They're persons to me, just as the forums was filled with persons before.
There's never a day that I miss knowing everyone on the forum. About a year ago, there was just too many for me to keep up with the new users though. And with so many of the people I know and love leaving for parts unknown, I really feel like one man, alone, in a sea of people.

To quote the Crocotta from Supernatural, 'You've never been so connected, but you've never felt so alone'.

Anyway, call me nostalgic, but I do miss the old Escapist. But finding a discussion board as good as it was will be too hard.

EDIT: It's way too hard to make a serious face with the avatar... but I love it so.
I joined right around that surge of people, right when Zero Punctuation got insanely popular. I joined the forums because it seemed like a place where genuine connections and even friendships were not only made, but seemed pretty common.

I can honestly say that it seemed when I joined a LOT of other people did too, many of these people didn't stick around so anytime I tried to connect with them it just fell away. And for whatever reason I never really tried to 'befriend' any of the notable posters (Many of which NewClassic mentioned in the OP and NewClassic himself) because they seemed to already be part of a group. Hell, all of the people on my friends list are peopel who I have quoted because I really enjoyed/agreed with one of their posts or they quoted me.

I also want to point out I don't want this to come across as me complaining/ whining that no one wants to play with me. Because most of my posts are short and sweet and to the point in the Offtopic/Gaming sections. I never really participate in any deep debates or internet arguments. I mostly keep to myself and try not to ruffle any feathers. Now get off my lawn you damn kids!
 

Lord Krunk

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tijuanatim said:
I can honestly say that it seemed when I joined a LOT of other people did too, many of these people didn't stick around so anytime I tried to connect with them it just fell away. And for whatever reason I never really tried to 'befriend' any of the notable posters (Many of which NewClassic mentioned in the OP and NewClassic himself) because they seemed to already be part of a group. Hell, all of the people on my friends list are peopel who I have quoted because I really enjoyed/agreed with one of their posts or they quoted me.
I don't think so, September was during The Escapist Election, a time that I fondly remember. The real surge happened early 2009, as the majority of people's join dates reflect. This is not meant to be in offense to any that joined within that time, I know and talk to quite a few of you.

I think, though, that this paragraph which I quoted ties in strongly with Nuke's OP, because in 2007/8 we weren't groups, we were people. Individuals with individual personalities, recognisable and lovable in their own ways. For example, Eggo. A troll by any other name, but a computer whiz like no other. Anarchemitis, a sophisticated genius with an adoration for parodical humour and steampunk. Khell_Sennett, whose rants are both idealistic and persuasive at the same time. I could go on forever, but I won't.

Nowadays, we are segregated into groups. We have fanboys, haters, nationalities, cultures, skill and beliefs that define where we are in the social structure of The Escapist. And while this was all around back then, it was hardly the be-all and end-all of things, we were all people with preferences, and we respected that as such.

As a sidenote, I'm fondly remembering my early months of posting, where everything I typed was a collossal word-wall. I spent longer as a Copy Clerk than I did as a Pulitzer Laureate.
 

tijuanatim

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Sep 24, 2008
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Lord Krunk said:
I don't think so, September was during The Escapist Election, a time that I fondly remember. The real surge happened early 2009, as the majority of people's join dates reflect. This is not meant to be in offense to any that joined within that time, I know and talk to quite a few of you.

I think, though, that this paragraph which I quoted ties in strongly with Nuke's OP, because in 2007/8 we weren't groups, we were people. Individuals with individual personalities, recognisable and lovable in their own ways. For example, Eggo. A troll by any other name, but a computer whiz like no other. Anarchemitis, a sophisticated genius with an adoration for parodical humour and steampunk. Khell_Sennett, whose rants are both idealistic and persuasive at the same time. I could go on forever, but I won't.

Nowadays, we are segregated into groups. We have fanboys, haters, nationalities, cultures, skill and beliefs that define where we are in the social structure of The Escapist. And while this was all around back then, it was hardly the be-all and end-all of things, we were all people with preferences, and we respected that as such.
Ah I was mistaken, I think I started posting more regularly (I.E. not just leaving comments on Yahtzee videos) in early '09. When I first registered I tended to lurk a lot more than I contributed to discussions.

And when I said groups in my post I didn't mean like fanboys, haters, etc I simply meant that (it seemed to me anyways) the Escapist Celebrities tended to usually group together/interact with each other a lot more than people do now (As you said Eggo tended to lean towards the'Troll' side of the spectrum, but he still seemed to have a relationship with the more serious posters).

Sorry, I probably could have made that clearer, but its around 1 AM and I'm finally seperating myself from my Criminology book..