RAM: Old and Gray

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Superbeast

Bound up the dead triumphantly!
Jan 7, 2009
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Heart of Darkness said:
Everyone's forum experience is different. I came for Yahtzee, stayed for the community, and now am trying to use it as a form of self-betterment.
I actually did exactly the same thing. Watched a couple of videos, checked out the forums, decided to stay (I think my first topic was a "gun rights" one. What an induction that was - 30-50 pages IIRC).

Which is why I try to refrain from using Yahtzee as the reason that this website attracts a...broader demographic than it used to. Because it'd be really hypocritical of me :)

[sub]btw thanks for the add.[/sub]
 

MurderousToaster

New member
Aug 9, 2008
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This post makes a lot of sense.

At least we're not getting "newfags can't triforce" threads yet. Seems a lot like the 'newfag' vs 'oldfag' infighting in other places like /b/.
 

Heart of Darkness

The final days of His Trolliness
Jul 1, 2009
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Superbeast said:
Heart of Darkness said:
Everyone's forum experience is different. I came for Yahtzee, stayed for the community, and now am trying to use it as a form of self-betterment.
I actually did exactly the same thing. Watched a couple of videos, checked out the forums, decided to stay (I think my first topic was a "gun rights" one. What an induction that was - 30-50 pages IIRC).

Which is why I try to refrain from using Yahtzee as the reason that this website attracts a...broader demographic than it used to. Because it'd be really hypocritical of me :)

[sub]btw thanks for the add.[/sub]
Haha, what an introduction, indeed. My first post was one in a thread about your favorite high-school science experiment. I posted in the middle of the second page, but the thread died shortly thereafter. I have good timing, it seems.

Everyone came here for Yahtzee, except for the 10% of crazies that surprisingly didn't. Just like 42% of all statistics are made up on the spot and reference some form of geek literature which I have yet to read. I should fix that soon...

[sub]No prob. =D[/sub]
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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Hubilub said:
I have to hand it to you, you have gotten me to rethink about all My past actions. All the fussing and fighting because of being new or old seems so... Pointless right now.
Just for everyone who states that this is a load of navel-gaving or complaining about the passage of time, I suppose they're right. This is the sort of message I was hoping to get across though. While it's clear that different folks on the Escapist forums have a different stance on what they come here for, or what they need, I'm speaking for myself in this thread. Like any RAM I'll write, I'm just trying to put my thoughts on paper. It's very introspective, analytical, but ultimately personal.

The way I approach forums isn't just a place to toss around opinions, or somewhere I can talk about something I like, but a place where I interact with folks. So while people see this and think "Blah blah blah, move on already," there's another point to be made here. It's not about the old times, just what's different between them. Better or worse? That's not for me to decide, I'm just taking too many words to speak my mind.

What I hope for RAM blatherings to accomplish is what's outlined in Hubilub's post above. He's perceiving things differently, understanding some of what made the forum tick before, and how it tocks now. Just, it's just an opinion, but it matters to some folks. If they want to be around to read it, then they're welcome to read it. What I'd imagine to be a large majority of people don't care one way or the other, and that's perfectly fine. Drawing it back into the perspective of the rant, I'm scribbling this for the persons that want to read it. People. Persons. Small difference of notable importance.

The_root_of_all_evil said:
[W]e've all become disassociated from why we came here in the first place and of course we're gonna feel put upon.

...​

It's time for us to change and see what we can do to bring people into the fold, or retreat to our own little vaults where we bob the Hawaiian doll and dream of "proper times".
Part of the reflection in this thread was looking at how that's actually happened. We all have our little groups with whom we associate, and the rest of the forums become a gelatinous mass. Those that don't like it have all sort of withered away. I'd like to think I'm doing my part of trying to avoid being stomped on by posting threads like these. They're discussions that are just as suited for the old and gray as they are the young and terse. Means I get to meet new people, expand my group knowledge, and hopefully keep within Dunbar's Number while still expanding my horizon.

So perhaps I'm waxing a bit poetic about old times. I'd by lying if I said I didn't miss it from time to time, but that doesn't mean I'm unable to cope with the newer times. If I were being honest, I've had as much discussion with pimppeter2 as I've had with mjhhiv, and more discussion with Monkfish_Acc than with Fire_Daemon, despite both of the examples favoring (or matching) the older and newer users. I haven't gotten around to having much discourse with Furburt or Hubilub, but not out of disassociation, just lack of opportunity.

As far as knowing your name goes, you know Dresden better than anyone else on the site (that I'm aware of), and that makes you sexy. "[P]rithee, with sprinkles 'pon it instead. And frosting of white."

starfox444 said:
The thing is you have to realize that as many people cherish the friendships and sense of comradeship you describe in the OP, many people (with myself as an example) come here to make a few quick posts in threads they find interesting.
Of course I realize that. While I wish I could be more open and loving, I'd sad to say this thread really isn't written for you, or those like you. As I said, I'm naturally pretty chummy and social, so I center a lot of my thoughts around the community itself, not as much on what the community is talking about.

Perhaps it's a little too catered to the smaller demographic than it should be, but sometimes I like to dabble in the niche-topics. The funny thing I notice is a lot of folks seem happy to hop aboard to tell me "No one cares." while still caring enough to call me out on it. Although I'm off-point now...

Bringing it back into perspective, I agree that it's an imperfect idea because its quite small in scope, but given that forums have more than one audience, I'm happy to write it for the persons, even if its a little beyond the people.

SikOseph said:
xmetatr0nx said:
2-Everyone comes here for their own reasons, sure the quantity of people who come here shape its values etc etc. Some choose to take it personally and attempt change in some way or another, yet others show up and have their fun and are happy with that.
2. You make a solid point here, and one that I think that the OP recognises. There is room for all types of fun here, and I don't think many (if any) people are proposing the banning of low-content threads. What some people are clamouring for is some human interaction through this forum, something that is impossible to get with a 'post-and-run' mentality. It is harder to find the kind of thread where you can learn about the person behind the avatar because these are much less frequent and are buried under the more accessible, shallower, threads. I think it is a legitimate aim and one that you shouldn't be so hostile towards. If you don't like it, you're welcome not to do the same.
While I disagree with choice of the word "clamoring," I'd say we're on agreement with a majority of the reasoning for this post. Not to say that it's better or worse for the for the change, just simply noting a difference, and how it affect how I see the forums.

Although I'm almost entirely in agreement with you.
 

Cherry Cola

Your daddy, your Rock'n'Rolla
Jun 26, 2009
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NewClassic said:
Intelligent snip
I do think that the Escapist adapted quite nicely to the influx of new members. And with that I mean that they did well by including User Groups. I don't really know exactly when they came, if it was during the "golden age" or after, but I know that without user groups, I wouldn't have made as many friends as I have now. The one reason me and Furburt are so good friends right now is because we got to know each other through a user group. Before that, we absolutely hated each other due to a few arguments, and had it not been for groups, we would have simply ignored each other to the end of time.

So in my opinion, there's still bonding and friendships to be found here. Maybe some people will think of these forums as a dump where you just post comments, but I don't think anybody can deny that intelligent, or at the very least amusing conversations can be held in group chats. It's thanks to them that I know that Lambi has never been high even once in his lifetime, or that Sassafrass had an eye infection when we made the Behind the Avatar thread.

Yes, the forums have changed. But I like to believe that the spirit of it all is still around. I can see it in the friendly forum games and in the group chats.

To finish my comment with a nerdy little comparison: The spirit of this forum is like energy. It can never be destroyed, nor can it be produced. It only changes.
 

Nemu

In my hand I hold a key...
Oct 14, 2009
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I'm definitely very now to the forum, but not so new to the site. A couple of years ago I was directed here to, yes, a ZP post. A friend of mine said that I'd thoroughly enjoy the reviews due to having a similar sense of humor and blunt way of putting things. I DID enjoy the reviews and came here (as often as I remembered) to watch new ones, I only joined the forums out of boredom.

Perhaps it's my general apathy about the internet, or due to the fact that i come on here while I'm doing other things and, thus, don't really take the time to seek them out, but where are these pockets of "friends" that you speak of? Sure, there are undoubtedly people know know each other "irl" on here, but I find it difficult to consider folks I "talk" to on forums "friends". At best, we're chat buddies. heck, even folks I game with and speak to on Vent aren't even considered friends. Sure, I like them, but I don't foresee ever going to hang out with them at a pub. Eh, maybe it's just me.

Regardless: things change, people change, diapers....really SHOULD be changed. For every Old Guard that falls away, a new wave of replacements comes along and, by way of account creation, "elects" a new Old Guard. Folks just need to accept the fact that everyone is different and that that is a good thing. You might find that the people you disagree with most on this site are the very ones you'll miss when they leave because you'll have lost an outlet or connection...

...or scapegoat. =P
 

Nemu

In my hand I hold a key...
Oct 14, 2009
1,278
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I'm definitely very now to the forum, but not so new to the site. A couple of years ago I was directed here to, yes, a ZP post. A friend of mine said that I'd thoroughly enjoy the reviews due to having a similar sense of humor and blunt way of putting things. I DID enjoy the reviews and came here (as often as I remembered) to watch new ones, I only joined the forums out of boredom.

Perhaps it's my general apathy about the internet, or due to the fact that I come on here while I'm doing other things and, thus, don't really take the time to seek them out, but where are these pockets of "friends" that you speak of? Sure, there are undoubtedly people who know each other "irl" on here, but I find it difficult to consider folks I "talk" to on forums as "friends". At best, we're chat buddies. Heck, even folks I game with and speak to on Vent aren't even considered friends. Sure, I like them, but I don't foresee ever going to hang out with them at a pub. Eh, maybe it's just me. (Course, the people I met in chat rooms 11 years ago are buddies, but at most I only text them. =P )

Regardless: things change, people change, diapers....really SHOULD be changed. For every Old Guard that falls away, a new wave of replacements comes along and, by way of account creation, "elects" a new Old Guard. Folks just need to accept the fact that everyone is different and that that is a good thing. You might find that the people you disagree with most on this site are the very ones you'll miss when they leave because you'll have lost an outlet or connection...

...or scapegoat. =P
 

PessimistOwl

Senior Member
Jan 19, 2010
275
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NewClassic said:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/Escapist/RAM_2.png
One of the most consistent cycles in the Escapist come in two solid waves. The first wave is a series of older members talking about how the influx of new members are the cancer that is killing e. The next wave, that takes place about a week later, is a bunch of new members crying foul about being picked on for nothing other than their join date. Both parties stubbornly set their jaws, and point the accusatory finger in the other direction. Not because either party honestly finds the other at fault, but because neither party is willing to accept that they're personally responsible.

The truth of the matter is there is no single, solid, uniform reason as to why the Escapist is better or worse now, then, or will be better or worse in the future. If I had to think of any one person or object to blame, it would be the community at large. The whole thing, end to end.

But don't get ahead of me.

The largest issue I have with the community on the Escapist is that it is fundamentally different than it was when I first joined. The fundamental difference is how the community handles itself. It's a matter of details, but no less important for the effort. The difference is between the words "persons" and "people." Mostly that the forums were once comprised almost entirely of persons, and they are now a people. The difference isn't as negligible as it seems.

Formerly, the forums were composed largely of persons. Which is also part of the reason so many members reflect fondly on Joe when he was a mod. It's not that his moderation was any better, just that it was more personal. He wasn't just suspending a user, he was personally ensuring that you were getting your punishment for your indiscretion. It's because everything from end to end was just that much more personal. Every post was a hand-crafted article or idea, written with care and devotion to the time. When a new thread came up, which was only five to ten per day, everyone had the time to really set their feet with the idea. Counter-points were written with as much care, devotion, and time. Every single person had the time to settle down for discussions. The friends made at the time were more capable of conveying friendship than just a name on a friend list. It meant more personal interaction.

More lately, there just isn't the time for that kind of treatment. If any one user sits down to write a long idea on a thread, a lot of little things are different. Fewer persons read it, instead favoring the more people-friendly shorter topics. Because the views go down, the responses also drop, both in quality and size. When there are responses, anyone who goes through the time to write out a matching reply loses out on the passing of other threads, which now number in the tens per hour. Which is astronomically fast compared to the previous speed. Which isn't to say its better or worse, just different. And that's just in one respect. It also means that persons know fewer persons, instead persons get to know the people. Just as any user can see with decent consistency that threads about Half-Life will get more praise than those about Halo. The same goes for topics like Twilight, or Modern Warfare 2, or Vegetarianism, or any number of other frequent discussions that tend to go in a single direction.

http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4592398/CrowdSafety-main_Full.jpg
The reason for this mass appeal is it becomes less about persons, and more about a people. A single, solitary, collective mass of people. They'll move more like a people, think more like a people, talk more like a people, and care more like a people. There are exceptions, certainly, but its not the same. It's easier to care about a group of 5 friends than a group of 500 peers. For example, a user should try to step out of their comfort zone, their group of friends, and try to learn about all the other groups of users. I'm familiar with a handful of Escapists from the RP sections, especially those I've been in an RP with. But for folks like thebobmaster and Neonbob, whom I've hardly met. What little I know of them is just in passing. In the same way, I'm hardly familiar with Furburt or Hubilub, despite knowing of them. I couldn't tell you anything about ExcitedNuke or tellmeimninja. Sure, I recognize their avatars, but they're just part of the collective mass of people to me.

Now, I could tell you Labyrinth's first name, just as I could pick her out of a crowd. I could tell you what city Xitel lives in, what job Baby_Tea has, and what Galletea studied in college. I know these guys, they're my personal friends. As cold and detached as it sounds, they aren't just part of the collective people to me. They're my friends, whom I can realistically say I care more for than any of the other names in the list above. Is it fair? Certainly not, but it's that they're persons to me. Just like Fire Daemon or Khell_Sennet. Just like seeing PedroSteckecilo leaving, or knowing Cahlee isn't around much anymore. They're persons to me, just as the forums was filled with persons before.

Now its a people. They- no... We think as a people. We start to feel each other out, we know how the mass will react, and we act as a people instead of as persons. For the old and gray, it means a sign of change. Less warm, less caring, less personal. Now all it seems is cold, uncaring, and unfeeling. It becomes harder to pick out persons, and simply to see them - us - as Legion. A single mass of people.

The biggest issue is that it's almost impossible to break up, because it's self-feeding. For every wave of new users that comes in, they have their own group. Friends have trouble breaking away from friends, and it ends up being cyclical. We can try to intermingle, with some success, but it's imperfect. Because for the old and gray, it's not the same. Nor will it ever be.

But all of life is like that. Work places have their groups, as do schools, gyms, clubs, whatever. People will naturally have their groups of persons, and the rest are the cold, the uncaring, the people. But the issue comes from the time when it wasn't that way. There was once a time where everyone knew everyone, and we were persons. That time is passed, though. We're a people now. Like it or not, it's what we've got.

What does it mean? In the long run, very little. Hopefully, though, we'll see a future of less worry about where the forums have been, and where they're going. It's a community, change will happen, and things will stay the same.

If nothing else, I'll raise my glass to hope.
Coming from someone new to Escapist, I actually mainly agree with you. However, this is the way of things. All sites start out one way and if they are popular enough, turn into something different over time. Followed by a war between the "noobs" and the "veterans". Honestly it becomes too much to handle. There are the people that still do this however, then you have the people that post nonsensical things that have nothing to do with anything and just fill up the boards. And then the problem is only made worse by the "Veterans" accusing said people of being "Noobs" and filling up more threads with flame wars. Honestly this happens in almost every popular web site. Really this only adds to the coolness of which we know each other. However, the other way your describing this is "as if everybody should know everybody in a web site". That is one of the charms of the internet is the pure anonymous nature of it. Sure, deep down nothing is anonymous however, you can still act like it is. You don't need to know where "so and so" lives or what "so and so" is eating for dinner. Really you shouldn't use the internet as such a "I like this because I can be friends with people" that is for social networking. Just use it to relax or laugh, or cry or whatever emotion you feel.

Also, inb4 "noob herr durr, herr durr, heeeerrrrr duurrrrr. Still a human here and just trying to put my thoughts on something.
 

UnusualStranger

Keep a hat handy
Jan 23, 2010
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Ah....The "Greatest Generation" symptoms are kicking in.

I have a feeling this is what everyone goes through at one point or another. Things do not stay the same (at least when it comes to the internet). There is the claim they they went through the "Greatest Times" or the "Golden Age". The question is, is it really better than what is here now, or just a comparison of changing ideas of what is great??

There is the claim that the site is no longer as personal or close knit as it once was. I'm not sure if that is exactly true. It is more likely a result of "I am running into more and more people who I do not recognize". The closeness is probably still around, it just isn't as obvious because of the amount of people you can run into around here.

The Forum.....Well, people have always had short attention spans, haven't they? I cannot say I am innocent of avoiding long thought out threads, but I can sometimes see the point "those people" are getting at. Sometimes, a long thought out idea is thought out too much. There are 20 different points, backed up with 5 different ideas. Though I appreciate a well thought discussion, I don't really have the time to read for 5 minutes, and then respond for about 10 more. There is a point of being well reasoned, and a point in which you are writing a book. If I want to read a book, I'll pick one up.

I see the difference in "Persons" and "People" but I think it is more a form of static, or a cloak, rather than a big problem. It makes some things less obvious, like good friends and the like, but when the day is done, that group of good friends doesn't care. As long as we as "People" are not actively fighting against "Persons", I don't see the problem with this slight change.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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PessimistOwl said:
[O]ne of the charms of the internet is the pure anonymous nature of it. Sure, deep down nothing is anonymous. However, you can still act like it is. You don't need to know where "so and so" lives or what "so and so" is eating for dinner. Really, you shouldn't use the internet as such a "I like this because I can be friends with people" that is for social networking. Just use it to relax or laugh, or cry or whatever emotion you feel.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't confused by this post. It's well thought-out, and quite eloquent about itself. Where I have the most trouble connecting is the section in bold. I should? In as much as a forum is built to encompass a large community, often with conflicting views, I have to wonder why I should behave in any one way.

To point, anyone is welcome to respond with the thread as they like, agree or disagree. The biggest point of disagreement is when one condemns another for the belief. It's already happened once or twice. Telling me what I should or shouldn't do is a little too... Draconian. This is the internet, you're welcome to embrace anonymity, but I have some (arguably) professional writing attached to this site that I like attached to my non-anonymous name. Doesn't mean 'im doin it rong,' just that we have different opinions on net culture.

But you're right. I should relax.
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
Legacy
Aug 15, 2008
7,508
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Furburt said:
TimeLord said:
[sub]Also; Just ignore Furburt, he may be absorbed by his own post count in the end[/sub]
You know what? You care about my post count more than I do. I couldn't give a shit. It's some numbers, that's all. It's just somewhat hypocritical that that's all you can say about me is I have a high post count like it's some sort of mark against me.
And if you had read the 10 other people who had quoted me for that, all I was doing was making a joke about your post count. I couldn't care less if it was 30 or 30,000. And I did say against everyone whose called me out on this, I don't mind you because you are not offensive in your posting.
 

Random Argument Man

New member
May 21, 2008
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I'm very happy with the Escapist of today.

However, I'll admit that I miss the old days. I never was part of the "click". Only a few knew me, and they rarely talked to me. Then again, I wasn't the same user that I am now. I got a few good debates too. Today, I don't really see the point.

I'll post more often in the Off-topic section in the future.
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
Legacy
Aug 15, 2008
7,508
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Furburt said:
TimeLord said:
And if you had read the 10 other people who had quoted me for that, all I was doing was making a joke about your post count. I couldn't care less if it was 30 or 30,000. And I did say against everyone whose called me out on this, I don't mind you because you are not offensive in your posting.
Oh, that's all right then. I'm just very on edge about this sort of stuff lately. Forgive me, I only read the first page of replies.
You are graciously forgiven my dear Irishman
 

theSovietConnection

Survivor, VDNKh Station
Jan 14, 2009
2,418
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NewClassic said:
*Snipped for Space*
The thing is though, people that talk, people who like to make friends really haven't disappeared, we've just become the proverbial diamond in the rough, if you will (Not to say anything bad about the community. I still love this site and the community around it). That is part of the reason I came here in the first place. I used to watch the Zero Punctuation videos, but never really thought of joining. It was upon reading some of the threads that I figured I would like a place like this. It seemed, and still is, a place where you can find and talk to interesting people with similar, yet wildly different, interests to yours from around the world. People that otherwise I may never have known.

Do I always get the chance to talk to all of them? No, not at all. Actually, the only person on here I've really talked to a whole lot is Sky. Is it regrettable I don't talk to more of the members here, members such as yourself, Nuke? Of course. I wish I could say I talk to many more of the users here, however, between scholarly obligations and people just not seeming terribly interested in what I have to say, it doesn't happen. Its a matter of making yourself available to people interested in talking to you, and with membership up as much as it is, it may seem a daunting task, but many more of us are out there, waiting to be found.

In short, I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with what you have to say. Is Escapist less personal then it was? Yes. Does that mean there are less people to be friends with? Absolutely not.
 

Ciarang

Elite Member
Dec 4, 2008
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I'm afraid this post is going to look quite out of place on this thread, as if I try to write more than a paragraph my lack of eloquence gets to me and makes me look like a fool. So here I go.

Nuke, being the writer you are, you've summed up what most people think is wrong with the escapist. But as you said, it's not necessarily wrong, just different. But people interpret that as being bad.

As for the impersonal thing. I agree, it's getting less personal, but that's a-given, you can't know everyone with this amount of users.
Furburt said:
Well, let me tell you something Nuke, I'd love to get to know you better. In my mind, you're the best writer on the whole site, even better than the staff writers. A true emphasis on quality and I respect that immensely.
Get Skype, Nuke is often on that.
 

quiet_samurai

New member
Apr 24, 2009
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Meh.

I really only come on here when I'm at work because it passes the time quicker. See, to me a website and it's forums are a rather trivial thing, I don't take them seriously and I could really care less if they fail/succeed or improve/worsen. Sure some of the discussions on here are very interesting and fun, but in the end, or when I go home.... I completely put them off my mind. I've said it several times and I'll say it again Calm down people... it's just a stupid internet forum!! There are literally millions of them out there and we are not different, we are not special, and we are not some bastion of light in the darkness. And thinking such thoughts is delusional.
 

oppp7

New member
Aug 29, 2009
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I actually don't have this much of a feeling about the Escapist. I think that's one of the reasons I like the site so much; I feel like everyone has an identity. I know many of the people on here, and I feel that there's an upper 'class' of users that post more often and are more well-known than others. I actually feel like I have friends on here, and I try not to make an idiot out of myself as much as I would in real life.

The Escapist has earned a reputation with me as an opposite to /b/; no one is very anonymous, everyone (important) uses good grammar, and trolls are struck down before they can get a second post out. With threads such as Behind the Avatar, the people on here are only more anonymous than Facebook. There are user groups centered around grammar and troll hunting.

As for low content posts and increased users: yes, that is occuring, but it's not cutting into the idea of what makes the Escapist great. There's still high content post threads, such as this one, and the new Religion and Politics section makes it easier to find them. Forum games are low content, but they're fun, and can be avoided entirely if that isn't your cup of tea. Increased users have encouraged shorter posts in order for the posts to be higher up and therefore have a chance to be seen, but they also make the Escapist more money and give the forums more opinions. Plus, many new members become frequent posters and as big a part of the community as any of us, such as Sleekgiant.

Either way, I don't think we've gone past a point of no return. If anything, with the advent of user groups and such, the Escapist is getting better by the day.