rampant "female characters" threads and the fractured philosophy of feminism

[FieryTrainwreck]

So many threads on this topic, and they all devolve into the same arguments with the same disconnects. We're getting nowhere, and here's why: at this point, feminism is a severely fractured philosophy that can't make up its fucking mind.

Take Alyx Vance, the postergirl for female protagonists "done right". She's independent, competent, and borderline asexual. Her role and her ideas are not defined by her gender. You could also change her sex to male with very little impact on her character. Is that a good thing? Is she a beacon of strong female characterization or a rejection of femininity - an insulting declaration that women cannot exhibit both sexuality and power? She appeals to the subset of male gamers who basically want a nerdy "best girl friend", but how many women can actually relate to her?

What about Bayonetta? She hails from the "unstoppable sex beast" school of female protagonists. She's unabashedly feminine in her dress and mannerisms while still maintaining complete dominance in her role as a powerful warrior. Her behavior originates from male expectations of her gender, but she owns that behavior and those expectations. She has embraced the sexualization of women to the point of empowerment. Do we applaud her while she skanks it up in skin tight hair outfits? Or do we scold her for accepting gender stereotypes to the point of dependence?

So what's the point of this thread? Definitely not to answer these questions. Most of them don't even have answers. The crux of the matter is that quality writing and quality characters can't be defined by broad generalizations or audience expectations. Characterization is an organic process that convinces or doesn't. That's it. Intelligent people respond well to true characters, good or bad, stereotypical or contrary, and that's where this particular "debate" ends for me.

But I'll tell you what really grinds my gears: feminist crusaders who don't recognize the complete no-win situation they've put us all in with regard to this bullshit. Seems there's literally no way to please all of these people. Even waving the white flag and going with a male protagonist has folks up-in-arms about favoritism. Give them Alyx and they roast you for denying femininity. Give them Bayonetta and they roast you for sexualizing women. Can't. Fucking. Win.

 

[CoverYourHead]

This is all a good point... But the real great feminist figure in games, to me at least, is Tali. You know why? She's strong, but without sacrificing her femininity. She still has feelings and what-not, and she certainly occasionally acts like what could be considered "girly" at times. But she's still very strong and powerful, yet without sacrificing her sexuality or over-exhibiting it like Alyx or Bayonetta.

Oh, and she's sexy as hell. But that's just me!

 

[Plurralbles]

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

In a nonsexist version: Like any movement and idea, people believe different things and have different mentalities, therefore, in every case, it's impossible to please everyone.

Just give us a bunch of Lelas from Futurama, please. That is a female character done well.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

I tried not to go there, but c'mon... a philosophy that reliably morphs into whatever makes men appear ignorant/selfish/stupid? Trying to wrap your head around the latest version of feminism feels an awful lot like trying to handle a woman's latest mood swing! /bu-dum tss

Please don't yell at me.

 

[sky14kemea]

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

I tried not to go there, but c'mon... a philosophy that reliably morphs into whatever makes men appear ignorant/selfish/stupid? Trying to wrap your head around the latest version of feminism feels an awful lot like trying to handle a woman's latest mood swing! /bu-dum tss

Please don't yell at me.

I actually kind of agree with you there (Both of you) Although you may want to phrase it a little better. =P

I'm a female too, although I'm a huge tomboy so I probably don't count as the feministic people you're talking about. I agree though, it really is impossible to get a female character across in gaming without getting some ridicule from a few women. >.>

Also I read some of your opening post in The Professors voice.... Dx

 

[Scarecrow]

I'll give you some advice...I did one of these thread a while ago. I just barely survived. Yours seems to be smarter then mine was, but I'll give you the warning anyway. I hope the mods have mercy on you like they did me.

 

[conflictofinterests]

Interestingly enough, a "stereotypical female" in other cultures may exhibit the same behaviors and mannerisms as a "stereotypical male" in that culture, or even exhibit characteristics of a "stereotypical male" from this one.

From an anthropological standpoint, as long as no one is being unquestionably abused, the general culture is doing a-OK.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

I guess I take the same stance on video game characters (had a lot of threads to read as you said) as I do feminism in the real world. Case by case basis, leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. I'm pretty neutral on Alyx, played it once, thought Dog was awesome, squished the squishy thing to make the funny noise a few times, was done. Can't comment on Bayonetta, haven't played it. Listening to extra credits makes me feel smart, but at the end of the day I still think the DoA girls are hot as hell, and I'll like what characters I was already going to like. Not sure if that answers your question, I'm a tad sleep deprived

 

[conflictofinterests]

I'm not sure whether I'd characterize myself as a feminist, but aside from the fact that it would be nice to see a woman in the role of sardonic wiseass, I feel that a believable character is a good one by any standard.

 

[TheNewDemoman]

I for one prefer the sexy female's. Not the large breasted ones with jiggle physics. No the pretty ones.

AKA. Lilith from Borderlands (hehehehehe)
Or
The new Zelda maybe......


I personally detest having the nerdy girl hanging around. I prefer my women lady like, not a nerdy guy in a girls body.

 

[IBlackKiteI]

Agree entirely, but this part in particular.

But I'll tell you what really grinds my gears: feminist crusaders who don't recognize the complete no-win situation they've put us all in with regard to this bullshit. Seems there's literally no way to please all of these people. Even waving the white flag and going with a male protagonist has folks up-in-arms about favoritism. Give them Alyx and they roast you for denying femininity. Give them Bayonetta and they roast you for sexualizing women. Can't. Fucking. Win.

Also,

This is all a good point... But the real great feminist figure in games, to me at least, is Tali. You know why? She's strong, but without sacrificing her femininity. She still has feelings and what-not, and she certainly occasionally acts like what could be considered "girly" at times. But she's still very strong and powerful, yet without sacrificing her sexuality or over-exhibiting it like Alyx or Bayonetta.

Oh, and she's sexy as hell. But that's just me!

I disagree somewhat, maybe I just see it differently, I don't really see her as strong or girly and wouldn't even think about adding her to a list of greatest female characters, but Tali is still a brilliantly well done character.

 

[Veldaroth]

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

I tried not to go there, but c'mon... a philosophy that reliably morphs into whatever makes men appear ignorant/selfish/stupid? Trying to wrap your head around the latest version of feminism feels an awful lot like trying to handle a woman's latest mood swing! /bu-dum tss

Please don't yell at me.

I don't think that that is really fair. Yes, there are some people like that, but for the most part it is just divided opinion that causes all of this. Not everyone has something against men, some are just tired of being objectified.

I am not particularly fond of characters like Bayonetta simply because I feel like it is directed at men, not women. Granted, I never played it so I could be wrong, but the advertising certainly didn't appeal to me specifically as a girl and came off a little offensive since it seemed like the entire point of it was to show off her physique.

However, I do believe it is possible to be both attractive and empowering. It is when it is overdone that I feel uncomfortable. Another obvious example being the impractical armor female warriors get in pretty much all MMOs. Sure, you can be powerful and awesome, but you are still wearing a metal thong...

Unfortunately, I never played Halflife, so I can't comment on the first half...

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Most of the feminist stuff is bullshit. Bayonetta is a great character, so is Nariko from Heavenly Sword. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil is another great female lead. They are all different characters (just like every woman is a different person) but they all well done, and the "well done" part is the most important. I just got Mass Effect 2 and I'm sure there will be a few good female characters in that. A female character (or any character) doesn't need to portray a certain PC or perfect image of a women to be a good character; if that did happen, every female character would be the same. Stereotypes are there for a reason, a gender, race, group, etc. doesn't get stereotyped because nobody from the group exhibits those traits, it's because a big enough of percentage of that group exhibits those traits.

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

There's some truth to this. I literally had a conversation with a female friend where she said she doesn't know who she is. I never heard a guy say that in all my life. I also see this quite often in TV shows and movies with female characters.

 

[Veldaroth]

I'm not sure whether I'd characterize myself as a feminist, but aside from the fact that it would be nice to see a woman in the role of sardonic wiseass, I feel that a believable character is a good one by any standard.

Oh, I totally agree! I want to see a sardonic wiseass female character as well!

 

[Crashage]

Meryl Silverburgh, anyone? She's pretty badass and sassy without being Bayonetta sexual or completely asexual, I think.

Also I've never really taken offence to anything like that, and while I'm sure some people would say that makes me a terrible woman, I think some ladies just need to chill out. Yes, Bayonetta is outrageously sexual, but at least she isn't cracking out daddy issues or fucking everything in sight. Alyx might not be feminine enough for some people, but think about it - if a young girl in the company of an older guy - her fathers friend - on a series of missions that put them both in danger, but through which she can completely hold her own and is totally competent and independent, suddenly got her boobies out or whacked on skirt, or started flirting, or being girly, I'm sure they would have something to say about that too.

"Ooh, why do young girls have to be objectified this way," they would say. "Even Gordon Freeman is a perv!"

 

[Plurralbles]

That's just the thing: Women don't know what they want and it extends to media.

There's some truth to this. I literally had a conversation with a female friend where she said she doesn't know who she is. I never heard a guy say that in all my life. I also see this quite often in TV shows and movies with female characters.

Yeah, I get that statement a lot from a girl I'm pursuing.

Although, I have no idea who I am either(male). I mean... transitioning from a major in computer science to a major in economics/poli sci and minoring in general business(for the prereq to get an MBA if I want it), is a tough one and made me question a lot of things. College itself as asked a lot. Am I lazy or a diligent hard worker? I morph from one to the next. Am I successful of a failure? It's even worse for girls because they have this constant bombardment of many different groups telling them who they are and how to act and have to force themselves into this weird and very difficult to function in view of femininity that is full of paradoxes such as, "if jewelry and make up is frivolous, why is it so important for women to have them?!" Almost everything a woman does today that isn't also what a man does is called frivolous and it's really annoying. Women have to be this confident, sexual being but also be chaste and reserved. It's baffling that women ever get out of their identity crisis.

 

[Trolldor]

Women in the role or Sardonic Wiseass...


'Shepard'
'Wrex'

 

[aPod]

So many threads on this topic, and they all devolve into the same arguments with the same disconnects. We're getting nowhere, and here's why: at this point, feminism is a severely fractured philosophy that can't make up its fucking mind.

There is a really funny joke here. I hope to god i'm not the only one who noticed it.

Every woman is different, so it's not surprising that every woman has a different view on what is an acceptable stereotype. Personally, i think stereotypes are there for a reason in games and it's too make the medium instantly recognizable. He's the big burly badass who doesn't say much, he's the quirky smartass, she's the sexy vixen, she's the quiet intelligent girl who gets lost in her own world, ect.

 

[Bloodstain]

But I'll tell you what really grinds my gears: feminist crusaders who don't recognize the complete no-win situation they've put us all in with regard to this bullshit. Seems there's literally no way to please all of these people. Even waving the white flag and going with a male protagonist has folks up-in-arms about favoritism. Give them Alyx and they roast you for denying femininity. Give them Bayonetta and they roast you for sexualizing women. Can't. Fucking. Win.

This is not only a problem in games, but in any media, and even real life. It makes me rage.