Yeah I'm sick of the whole 32ZZ sized bossoms. Characters like the Boss, MGS3 is very good. Because, shes not some cardboard cutout. She has depth and unfortunatley she does get her knockers out at the end... I do enjoy playing as women, unstead of a constant flow of space marines and yes I realise how Freudian that is.
rampant "female characters" threads and the fractured philosophy of feminism
- Thread starter FieryTrainwreck
- Start date
Recommended Videos
My problem with the generic feminist ideals (or at least the ones I've been exposed to) are that they refuse to acknowledge that men and women are different and instead of trying to be equal they try and be the same, if you get my drift. Some feminists don't follow this rule but most I've met do. They don't try and make men and women equal, they try and make women men.
I dunno, the impression I've gotten from the feminists I have conversed is that they primarily want variation, not "the perfect female character" which all female characters should descend from in order to have any sort of pedigree.
I can't blame them, really, because I'm starving for variation and female characters in video games tend to be some of the biggest offenders because two flavours of female characters almost always overpower the rest: The Girl and The *****, both of which are made to look sexually appealing unless the ***** is also meant to be hated in which case she isn't quite as pretty.
I can't blame them, really, because I'm starving for variation and female characters in video games tend to be some of the biggest offenders because two flavours of female characters almost always overpower the rest: The Girl and The *****, both of which are made to look sexually appealing unless the ***** is also meant to be hated in which case she isn't quite as pretty.
Yes, I think that is a real issue and we can see it in the supposedly "feminist" discussions we have on game forums. One of the most annoying things for women is that they think that characters in a male dominated medium have to fit into a mould of virgin or whore with nothing in between and with those as the defining characteristics. It's like Alyx is a pure virgin so she is seen as a good character by male gamers and Bayonetta is a whore so she is seen as a good character by male gamers. The girls in Dead or Alive extreme dress up in skimpy clothes like whores but they act all coy and playful like virgins. Me gamer, me confused, me no likey.Verp said:
I'm with you. I acknowledge that feminism is a very necessary evil, and that their mission is still far from complete, but they seem too comfortable generating these types of no-win situation.Bloodstain said:
It's especially a no-win situation in the entertainment industry. A politically correct neutral female character would be about as entertaining as watching flies fuck. And even if you designed the character to every single demand made by the more radical feminists, they'd STILL find something to complain about.
It is rather sad that feminism has been boiled down to the same obnoxious bullshit as politically correct censorship where the ultimate goal is something so inoffensive and boring it can be used as a weapon that drives it's victims to suicide. Like the people who blame games on violent behavior in children, they seem to have forgotten their mission altogether and are now just blindly nitpicking at some of the most illogical bullshit you could ever imagine.
Feminism is no different from say Liberalism or Conservatism or even Socialism when it comes to this. Becuase feminism has gone a long way from its' roots in the suffragette movement and from its' booming years in the 70's. Today you have all kind of feminists out there with all kinds of takes on what society must do to get closer to equality. Some believe women need to be de-sexualized, others argue that sexualization is completely fine as long as it is the woman's choice. Some think men are the root of all evil, most don't. And the list goes on forever. That you (most who have responded in here) can't see the difference between various brands of feminism doesn't instantly mean that feminism is some huge trainwreck of a movement. It only means you know too little about feminism to understand just how diverse it is today. And like all movements it has a bunch of idiot loudmouths (think of the as the Bill O'Reilly's of feminism) in its ranks.
Anyway, onto this topic. The problem with female characters in games? They are written by men. That's not to say that men can't write good female characters but the crass truth is that female characters in games are written by men for men. Basically, all characters are written to satisfy its' intended audience and this is where the problem will be at if the writer gets the idea (even worse if it turns out to be true) that the audience wants stereotypical Victorian women.
However, I dare say that it is a problem that is becoming less and less frequent and less and less pronounced. Just look at the outrage against Metroid: Other M, a game that tried a classical JRPG-girl and had many of the games fans outraged by how it "ruined" Samus Aran. That's a good thing, because it shows that gamers are starting to expect their women in games to be more then the tired weak and emotionally unstable stereotypes.
Anyway, onto this topic. The problem with female characters in games? They are written by men. That's not to say that men can't write good female characters but the crass truth is that female characters in games are written by men for men. Basically, all characters are written to satisfy its' intended audience and this is where the problem will be at if the writer gets the idea (even worse if it turns out to be true) that the audience wants stereotypical Victorian women.
However, I dare say that it is a problem that is becoming less and less frequent and less and less pronounced. Just look at the outrage against Metroid: Other M, a game that tried a classical JRPG-girl and had many of the games fans outraged by how it "ruined" Samus Aran. That's a good thing, because it shows that gamers are starting to expect their women in games to be more then the tired weak and emotionally unstable stereotypes.
We men like sexualised imagery of women, there's no shame in admitting that (women like sexualised imagery of men too, it's how attraction works), but we men of the gaming industry/world are also making a huge effort to try and be sensitive to the thoughts and feelings of our female compatriots (hence the large number of 'strong' female protaganists and characters).
The male perspective is very frequent in gaming as a whole because it is a very male dominated place (from the view of both devs and actual gamers), this is changing over time, but this still doesn't change the fact that you're asking a very male dominated culture to be aware and understanding of the female perspective.
Men have a settled archtype that they accept being the norm as their characters and protaganists (we're not offended when we see muscle-bound warriors and grizzled space marines everywhere, we can't relate to these people in the slightest but that's not a problem), with women it's somewhat more complicated since it appears that including a female character is no longer just a choice from the writer but a statement and reflection on women and femininity as a whole (how many people are offended by characters like Ivy from Soul Calibur and Bayonetta? I can guarantee you it's way more than the number of people who were offended by characters like Duke Nukem or Marcus Fenix, characters who are still largely objectified and characterised by their masculinity).
The male perspective is very frequent in gaming as a whole because it is a very male dominated place (from the view of both devs and actual gamers), this is changing over time, but this still doesn't change the fact that you're asking a very male dominated culture to be aware and understanding of the female perspective.
Men have a settled archtype that they accept being the norm as their characters and protaganists (we're not offended when we see muscle-bound warriors and grizzled space marines everywhere, we can't relate to these people in the slightest but that's not a problem), with women it's somewhat more complicated since it appears that including a female character is no longer just a choice from the writer but a statement and reflection on women and femininity as a whole (how many people are offended by characters like Ivy from Soul Calibur and Bayonetta? I can guarantee you it's way more than the number of people who were offended by characters like Duke Nukem or Marcus Fenix, characters who are still largely objectified and characterised by their masculinity).
I'll be... *ticks of fingers* 34 this summer. And, as a woman, I have to say I've never cared less for feminism with regards to gaming. Finding meaning in video game characters of the female persuasion - that's a younger woman's game.
All I care about anymore is if the game is fun.
No character that has been created is going to be as good as the one I customize for myself anyway, so why fuss over whether or not the pre-made ones have big tits or small ones. As long as the game is fun, I'm good.
All I care about anymore is if the game is fun.
No character that has been created is going to be as good as the one I customize for myself anyway, so why fuss over whether or not the pre-made ones have big tits or small ones. As long as the game is fun, I'm good.
Annah from Planescape Torment.Veldaroth said:
One of the best examples, being a side character allows her to be a bit more snarky than the lead role could be.
Shepard and Ashley(to some extent) in ME.
Yes, you can just swap Shep's gender, but I don't think that should matter, Bioware clearly put a great deal of effort into making FemShep her own.
Ashley is never short on a snide comment when it involves alien races.
The big one, Lara Croft.
Could probably toss in Jade of Beyond Good and Evil.
Don't just stop there. Women should also do the coding. Whoever nerfed Makoto's power between 3S and SSFIV was probably a sexist pig since she was so good in 3S and is now the worst character. Whether it was a subconscious hatred of women that caused this or if it was an editorial mandate can only be guessed.Gethsemani said:
Actually what I'm saying here is that judging female characters on how strong they are is ridiculous when applied to videogames. Whether or not Makoto's command grab is any good was probably not motivated by sexism or Feminism.
Fuck feminism. -_-
It's as you say not going anywhere and they don't seem realise it. I honestly don't care what stereotype or non-stereotype a character is presented as - all I want is a well-made character. A good character, one that is judged by all it's character and not only one part of it.
Solely judging a character on how it presents it's sex is mighty stupid and not at all making any sort of valid point against them or for them. It's silly, and it's not seeing the big picture. What actual person would want to be judged or justified based on how well they present their sex, it's fucking insulting. Stop it, it's dumb.
Lost my train of thought... I recommend watching TheAmazingAtheist videos on femenism in general if you like that subject, they're entertaining if nothing else:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt_0ko4njmc&playnext=1&list=PL65D4EDFC4938783A
It's as you say not going anywhere and they don't seem realise it. I honestly don't care what stereotype or non-stereotype a character is presented as - all I want is a well-made character. A good character, one that is judged by all it's character and not only one part of it.
Solely judging a character on how it presents it's sex is mighty stupid and not at all making any sort of valid point against them or for them. It's silly, and it's not seeing the big picture. What actual person would want to be judged or justified based on how well they present their sex, it's fucking insulting. Stop it, it's dumb.
Lost my train of thought... I recommend watching TheAmazingAtheist videos on femenism in general if you like that subject, they're entertaining if nothing else:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt_0ko4njmc&playnext=1&list=PL65D4EDFC4938783A
I think the problem is that people are over-analyzing this a bit. I mean, it's hard to create a character, much less a girl/woman character, that's convincing.
If you try to make a strong woman, who kicks ass and never blinks, she's criticised for being just a guy with boobs.
If you add in some girly moments or some crying scenes or something, then she's criticised for not being consistant.
If you take out the badass part, then she's criticised for being a stereo-typical girly-girl.
If you try to make a strong woman, who kicks ass and never blinks, she's criticised for being just a guy with boobs.
If you add in some girly moments or some crying scenes or something, then she's criticised for not being consistant.
If you take out the badass part, then she's criticised for being a stereo-typical girly-girl.
I get a bit annoyed by threads claiming oversexualisation by making them too attractive. The girls I know that play games appreciate being able to play an attractive woman. I appreciate playing an attractive man.
I'm pretty sure if the majority of the games industry was made by women and all the games were as they are now, people would complain about how all the men are in unrealistically good shape. Oh wait, we wouldn't complain about that, because nobody cares.
I'm pretty sure if the majority of the games industry was made by women and all the games were as they are now, people would complain about how all the men are in unrealistically good shape. Oh wait, we wouldn't complain about that, because nobody cares.
This thread pretty much goes hand in hand with character creation. Although I'm not completely sure what the sole question is I will give it my best stab. I have noticed that lately character creation whether it be male or female has been under a lot of pressure, mostly because plenty of people complain because of the cookie cutter white male in a space marine suit. I personally don't really complain unless the character is a complete moron, but plenty others do. But for women its totally different, the gaming genre of entertainment has been geared towards the stereotypical nerdy male audience for as long as I can remember. That mixed with the certain set ideals of society, women never really got a chance to enter that realm while it was being created.
Where I'm going with all of this is the fact that since women weren't really massive pivotal characters that held serious sway (and I'm probably going to get swarmed for saying this) there characters never developed past being the, "nurse passing the needle" character. But I'm pretty sure that there were plenty of female characters that played much larger roles now because of the social pressure for game designer to not miss one ethnicity or gender or be shoved into anti this or anti that. That being said I personally think that any male or female character is important to the story and should be fit for the role that the creators designed them for.
Overall you can't please everyone, its just better to appeal to the largest crowd and run with it.
Where I'm going with all of this is the fact that since women weren't really massive pivotal characters that held serious sway (and I'm probably going to get swarmed for saying this) there characters never developed past being the, "nurse passing the needle" character. But I'm pretty sure that there were plenty of female characters that played much larger roles now because of the social pressure for game designer to not miss one ethnicity or gender or be shoved into anti this or anti that. That being said I personally think that any male or female character is important to the story and should be fit for the role that the creators designed them for.
Overall you can't please everyone, its just better to appeal to the largest crowd and run with it.
I think female characters are pretty good when you can find a balance. She isn't from a game, but I think Leela is a perfect example of that.
A bit off topic but this is similar to the sky sports fiasco a week or so ago. Two presenters got caught in a bit 'sexist' banter and the media (not just feminists but they helped) blew it way out of proportion causing the presenters to lose their jobs.
Whilst there is a little bit more to that story, the point I'm making is that feminists joined with political correctness have made modern society a bit of a joke.
I understand feminism was an important force in the last century but seriously, mission accomplished, now fuck off and stop crying over EVERY LITTLE act of perceived 'sexism'
- this is meaning the more fundamentalist of feminists rather than the group as a whole -
Whilst there is a little bit more to that story, the point I'm making is that feminists joined with political correctness have made modern society a bit of a joke.
I understand feminism was an important force in the last century but seriously, mission accomplished, now fuck off and stop crying over EVERY LITTLE act of perceived 'sexism'
- this is meaning the more fundamentalist of feminists rather than the group as a whole -