Random thourght about portrayal of women in media..

[Vault101]

I'm not trying to start another long running flamewar thread here...this is just a thourght I had and I'm wondering what everyone else thinks...

see I was thinking...[b/]in very very VERY general terms[/b] when I think about all the males I've seen in all kinds of fiction/media..and all the females. it feels like in regards to females there less.."variety"

its been said before that males are often seen as the "default", which it does feel like that somtimes, when I think of a charachter and he happens to be a guy people don't get hung up on his gender...you see a whole spectrum of charachters, handsome, short, unatrrative, serious, funny, crazy...hell "steve buscemi" has a career..which to me kind of shows that theres more depth and variety to how men are portrayed...

now OF COARSE all the usuall stuff applies to men as well...Buscemi wouldnt be your leading man in an action flick anytime soon...or the love interest in a romantic comedy...hollywood and other media is still as sterotypical and shallow as ever

but anyway when I think about women...to me the whole spectrum feels alot more limited in the kind of people you get, apearancewise its pretty standard, you don't find a whole range of body types "generally" persoanllity wise I find it hard to generalise though...when were talking about the (rom com) type stuff they are always femine type ladys who are devoid of any interestign personality traits and are always looking for "mr right" or some bullshit ..anyway

take a film like bridesmaids...I actually like it..I thourght it was hilarious..also when I think about it its charachters are all pretty good...and then theres that charachter Megan...

I admit I laughed because she was funny as hell...but when I think about it (and read in an article) they really draw attention to the fact that she is "fat" short and "butch"...now of coarse its a comedy, thats to be expected, but when you think about it the reason they point and laugh seems like [i/]the Idea[/i] that a women is like this rather than the image hollywood has shown us is [b/]so ludacrous[/b] that its hilarious...


..another way of looking at it is that if a man is butch, or less butch, or short, or funny or serious, or is the subject of physical humour, or is smart, or a physisist, or a mechanical genious, or a violent badass......it just is

of a women is any of those things then its a big deal...[b/]if a women deviates from a certain image we have of what a women is..its a big deal[/b] I mean where do you supose the term "girls dont play games" comes from?

the fact is weather we know it or not we are influenced by the media around us.....women...hell [b/]51% of all people ever[/b] are a diverse bunch..and I get the feeling that (as I said) generally speaking media does not reflect this [footnote/]YES I know media always goes back on sterotypes and such for men as well....but I still maintain my point[/footnote]

like say I'm a PC gamer...for some reason this would surprise people..why?...what do girls do?...how do we know what anyone likes to do in their spare time?

which makes me wonder if that in turn influences peoples Ideas of women..not just blatant sexism...but other more subtle things

they say that doing female charachters is hard.....no, no it isnt...we have all heard a million times before that "charachter first, gender second" which rings true

take Comander Shepard..she's a strong female charachter and interchanglble with a guy..

part of the problem is any notable female charachter all of a sudden becomes a "benchmark"...a judging point, which isn't good at all because then people complain if she is not what they think the Ideal female charachter should be...regardless of how it fits in the story

but thats another issue...

this tunred out more "wall of text" than I intended...essentially my point is [b/]we seem to have a narrower varety of women than men in all kinds of media[/b]

 

[Nathan Crumpler]

I think typecasting is due to straight white males not being able to fill the roles of characters that focus on ethnicity, gender, or homosexuality. So, those roles go to the minorities, woman, and homosexuals. If there is a role than you can place any one into, you might as well cast a straight white guy, because that is what the public wants to see; at least that's what Hollywood thinks.

 

[Elate]

I think typecasting is due to straight white males not being able to fill the roles of characters that focus on ethnicity, gender, or homosexuality. So, those roles go to the minorities, woman, and homosexuals. If there is a role than you can place any one into, you might as well cast a straight white guy, because that is what the public wants to see; at least that's what Hollywood thinks.

Spoiler: Re-he-he-eeeaallyyy?

I think it's more to do with actors doing what they're comfortable with, most would rather play parts that they can at least relate to in some way. Nothing to do with type casting.

 

[axlryder]

snip

I agree with you to a decent extent. People do make a bigger deal of woman doing things that aren't typical "woman" stuff. Oh, a female cop, let's highlight her character and make note of how well she defies gender stereotypes. Oh look, this girl is ugly, that's so unique, let's build the film around it. etc. I don't think highlighting how untypical a particular character might be is exclusive to woman though. If you see a cross-dresser or an ethnic minority in a movie, for instance, you're going to get some attention drawn to it regardless of gender, because it defies norms enough to be deemed notable.

That said, I feel doing female characters can be trickier than doing men in the sense that it comes with all this gender politics baggage. I don't want to bring Anita into this, but I'm just using her as a reference point for how people tend to be more critical of female character's portrayal simply because they don't meet some vague expectations in their portrayal. The standards obviously aren't the same for everyone either. To give an example, if you write a man as a sniveling, complaining wimp who can't carry a sword, he'd just be that one sniveling, complaining guy. You write a woman like that, and you're probably going to raise a few more eyebrows. Though, ironically, it's probably because of sexism that characters like that might be deemed sexist. Of course, you can always just say "to hell with all that" and write whatever you want.

 

[RyQ_TMC]

*snippity*

Actually, I would expand what you're saying to a broader set - the lack of variety applies to any character other than the "standard". Any deviation from the "middle-aged heterosexual white male" becomes a defining character trait. And there is no variety within those classes.

For example, you mention "body types" in your post. True, there is little variation in body type for female characters. But look - you have fat males, but they are invariably roped into the role of comic relief. Or you have very skinny ones, and they get the "creepy guy" character.

Then you have age. Older characters are mentors. Younger are impulsive and immature.

Homosexuals are flamboyant. People of other ethnicities come saddled with a slew of stereotypes - and to see how deeply ingrained they are in public consciousness, you just have to realize that a presidential candidate who grew up in a rich white family was marketed as representing the poor blacks and nobody questioned that.

What I'm saying is that gender is treated as another of those "defining deviations". So it's true that there is less variety to female than to male characters in general. But it's not just a gender thing. It's all about the way we think and categorize people. We think with stereotypes.

 

[yuval152]

Begone you and your R&P topic.

Spoiler

Vault101... you have betrayed the express rules of these forums. Through your arrogance and stupidity, you've opened these peaceful threads and innocent posters to the horror, and desolation of WAR! You are unworthy of these thread! You're unworthy of your badges! You are UNWORTHY!... of the Escapees you have betrayed!

I now take from you, your power! In the name of my father, and his father before, I, Yuval152, CAST YOU OUT!!!

[small] credits for jack the potato[/small]

OT: Gaming is known as a male thing because before it went mainstream it was a sausage fest.

I'm too lazy to read the rest of the text...

 

[Vault101]

That's another point. If you write for a guy you're less likely to have to deal with bullshit like being accused of sexism.

Less hassle and you get the same results.

yes it was and still is male dominated...but some people still act lik its incredibly bizare or rare for a female to play games...which I dont think was the case [i/]even then[/i]

 

[Vault101]

OT: Gaming is known as a male thing because before it went mainstream it was a sausage fest.

I'm too lazy to read the rest of the text...

1. did they change the rules? (if so I dont exactly agree)

2. thats not my actual point or what I'm talking about

 

[Spinozaad]

Archetypes. You expect the hero of an action story to be masculine. Just glance at Hollywood. Games are no different. How many Die Hards/James Bonds/Rambo's have you seen starring a female lead?

What's more interesting, I think, is the evolution of the female "companion" to the hero in both Hollywood and videogames. These have gone from 'damsel in distress' to 'semi-competent, but still in distress' to 'very competent'.

 

[axlryder]

*snippity*

Actually, I would expand what you're saying to a broader set - the lack of variety applies to any character other than the "standard". Any deviation from the "middle-aged heterosexual white male" becomes a defining character trait. And there is no variety within those classes.

For example, you mention "body types" in your post. True, there is little variation in body type for female characters. But look - you have fat males, but they are invariably roped into the role of comic relief. Or you have very skinny ones, and they get the "creepy guy" character.

Then you have age. Older characters are mentors. Younger are impulsive and immature.

Homosexuals are flamboyant. People of other ethnicities come saddled with a slew of stereotypes - and to see how deeply ingrained they are in public consciousness, you just have to realize that a presidential candidate who grew up in a rich white family was marketed as representing the poor blacks and nobody questioned that.

What I'm saying is that gender is treated as another of those "defining deviations". So it's true that there is less variety to female than to male characters in general. But it's not just a gender thing. It's all about the way we think and categorize people. We think with stereotypes.

yeah, I'd agree with you. The moment a character acquires a unique trait, suddenly that is their character. The weirder the trait, the more limiting it is. Funny that the things that are supposed to add variety often end up severely limiting depth.

 

[yuval152]

OT: Gaming is known as a male thing because before it went mainstream it was a sausage fest.

I'm too lazy to read the rest of the text...

1. did they change the rules? (if so I dont exactly agree)

2. thats not my actual point or what I'm talking about

1.I was referencing Thor, If you're offended then I apologize.

2. I was referencing the girls dont play games thing.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I pretty much agree, and have realized this myself for a while. It is slowly getting better as things go on (thanks feminism!), but things are still not at the ideal.

Still, gender boundaries are slowly being broken with more and more women entering into spaces where they were formerly rare. I think we will see this stuff decrease as more women enter into these spaces. The future looks fairly bright from where I am standing, even if we still have a ways to go.

 

[MetalMagpie]

like say I'm a PC gamer...for some reason this would surprise people..why?...what do girls do?...how do we know what anyone likes to do in their spare time?

I knew a guy at university who did cross-stitch as a hobby. People found that surprising. Why? Because it's a hobby that's traditionally associated with women. It's entirely possible that these days the ratio of female to male cross-stitchers is 50:50. I simply don't know. I'm not a cross-stitcher.

In the same way, how many people (who aren't gamers themselves) do you think know/care what the current male to female ratio is amongst gamers? It's traditionally viewed as something guys do.

In these sort of situations, I think it's actually men who are worse off. It's far more socially acceptable for a girl to play with trucks than it is for a boy to play with Barbie dolls. Female engineers are "strong, capable individuals" powering forward women's rights. Male ballet dancers get bullied at school. A woman in a trouser suit is a power-dresser. A man in a dress is a cross-dresser (with all the connotations of social deviance).

In British society at least, women are winning their right to be whatever they want to be. (With bishops one of the few outstanding issues.) But men are still expected not to cry at their own parent's funeral.

OT: Does the media reflect women's diversity? I think it does. You just need to watch more media that's aimed at women. TV in particular has a huge variety in female characters (largely thanks to the fact that women watch more TV than men do).

There's a trend across a lot of very female-focused media to categorise all male characters as either "love interest", "father figure", "big brother figure" or (occasionally) "gay friend". And to give nearly every male character a primary motivation that is focused on a woman (usually either to protect her or to make her love him). Twilight is a good example here.

There's nothing really wrong with this. It's just appealing to the audience.

 

[Tippy]

The fact is already known that males in general have a far variety of psychologies than females.

Case in point:
> The number of male brilliant minds in the world outnumber female brilliant minds by a noticeable amount.
BUT
> Majority of the world's most lunatics/idiots are also males. Going by prison populations males vastly outnumber females, males are more likely to commit a crime and do stupid/reckless shit.

People can play the "well society has forced men and women to behave in certain ways" card all they want, it doesn't change the fact that the situation has more or less stayed the same for thousands of years. Yes the number of brilliant female minds (and inversely, female criminals) is increasing - but still far from equal. So is it really a surprise that men are portrayed to have more varied roles and personalities in the media compared to females?

Just speaking in general terms here. I have known my share of really smart (and equally dumb) girls. Even a rather reckless one who kept implusively wanting to do crazy shit, always punching people in the shoulder as a form of greeting, the "grrr grr" type .

In the end it doesn't really amount to anything important unless you're a feminist who tries to turn every little difference between genders in to a fucking war.

 

[Tippy]

The fact is already known that males in general have a far variety of psychologies than females.

Can you cite any reputable source saying it, or are we just supposed to believe your estimation?

Just connecting the dots really, didn't know I had to have a reputable soruce pointing out the sky is blue or water is wet.
There has to be a reason why the number of genuises, as well as the number of prison inmates are dominantly male. Females are on the rise, but the situation is still far from equal.

For now I'll pass it along as my own opinion. Do you have an opinion that answers the above phenomenon better?

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

The following quotes regard specifically comedy, but can be applied to broader concepts I think. You don't have to read all of the quotes, but they do come from a great play.

Spoiler: Long quote list from my favourite play

We work through laughter, not for it. If all you're about is raising a laugh, OK, get on with it, good luck to you, but don't waste my time. There's plenty of others as'll tek your money and do the necessary. Not Eddie Waters..."

"...It's not the jokes. It's not the jokes. It's what lies behind them. It's the attitude... A real comedian - that's a daring man. He dares to see what his listeners shy away from, fear to express. And what he sees is a sort of truth about people, about their situation, about what hurts or terrifies them, about what's hard, above all about what they want."

"A joke releases the tension, says the unsayable, any joke pretty well. But a true joke, a comedian's joke, has to do more than release tension. It has to liberate the will and the desire. It has to change the situation..."

"There's very little won't take a joke. But when a joke bases itself upon a distortion - a stereotype perhaps - and gives the lie to the truth so as to win a laugh and stay in favour, we've moved away from a comic art and into the world of cheap entertainment and slick success... You're better than that, damn you. And even if you're not, you should bloody well want to be..."

"...A joke that that feeds on ignorance starves it's audience. We have the choice. We can say something or we can say nothing. Most comics feed prejudice and fear and blinkered vision, but the best ones, the best ones... illuminate them, make them clearer to see, easier to deal with. We've got to make people laugh till they cry. Cry. Till they find their pain and their beauty

I think that in fiction men are more likely to be allowed to get to the heart of a problem. They 'dare(s) to see what (his) listeners shy away from.' They can be gay, they can have problems related to gender, but they can also be tough and strong leading men who stand on their own two feet. And when they have 'Hollywood Flaws' these flaws can be genuinely reflective of real problems.

Women don't get that so much in my opinion. Even the tough badass ones have to have 'feminine' problems. So the tough space marine commando has to have unresolved motherhood issues, the hardass adventurer has to have daddy issues and abandonment problems, the insane rapist has to issues from having been raped, The independent lawyer just needs a man.

Would you really ever see a woman having identity issues in media that didn't relate directly to her gender? Men in fiction can have identity issues about their job, their family, their interpersonal relationships with everyone they meet, their history, the trajectory of their life vis a vis expectations vs reality.

But in contrast every one of these issues has the added extra with a woman of 'related to her gender'. She can have identity issues about her job because she's in a male dominated profession and she doesn't know if she's adequate. She can have identity issues about her family because she's not fitting in with her more feminine mother. She can have identity issues about her interpersonal relationships because she hasn't managed to get a man. The trajectory of her life is always related to the same trifecta of Man-Child-House.

And if you could find me even ten women in the entire history of cinema who deal with personal issues unrelated or incidental to her gender then I will eat my keyboard.