I usually refrain from posting serious comments, but this intrigues me:
1. Have you been raped? You do not need to answer, but attacking another poster on the grounds that he/she (probably) did not experience rape and thusly is not qualified to talk about the victims feelings is interesting.
2. "They should be allowed to do, what their hearts tell them to do".
So, if they kill the guy, should the victims of that act ( the family and friends of said rapist) be allowed to kill the rape victim? After all, they just suffered the loss of someone dear to them, which is a shock no-one can prepare you for.
And how far should the victims be allowed to go?
And shouldn't the victims of other crimes, such as a robbery or assault also get to dispose of the culprit as they see fit? And should the innocent victims of these acts of vigilance, the friends and families of the initial culprit, then get to act themselves and kill the one who killed their loved one? Or do these innocent victims get to eat shit, because their loved one did a bad thing, so their emotional trauma and suffering is less important and they should just deal with it and / or forgive and forget, or just forget?
And if they get to take revenge, the family / friends of the inital rape/robbery/assault victims are now victims as well, which means they should be allowed to act on their emotions, and so on and so forth in an eternal circle which can only be broken by one group of victims making the sacrifice of suffering their own anguish without taking what should rightfully be theirs?
(Alternatively, if finally one guy/gal is killed that absolutely no-one cares about, the circle would break as well)
Is that what you want?
If so, I hope you never get into a position of power. Ever.
Also: Hurray, 500 posts and I wrote something serious wheeeee.
I have been tortured by my mother; she was a frustrated, mentally unstable immigrant who married my father for his gold, alone in America (by her choice) while my white father managed an air conditioning company in asia. She wanted me to be an american boy so she tore me away from everything I loved when I was 6 years old, and In addition the mental rape she put me through every single day of my childhood, I had to deal with the constant culture shock of moving from america to asia to america to asia to america, different states and countries every single time, and in addition to my mother's bullying I had to put up with being the outsider at school, the easy target, the chinamen who should go back to china. I was an only child so therefore I was the only one to bear the brunt of her insanity. She would set for me impossible tasks and then berate and belittle me when those tasks inevitably went unsatisfied, occasionally beating me, but more often than not she would simply raise her hand to me and scare me into submission. She took pleasure in seeing me cry, and for this I bear a deep seeded hatred of her. She would abuse my dad who was a total fucking pussy and gave into her unreasonable demands like clockwork, she would merely have to raise her shrill, horrible voice and my dad would cave instantaneously. Everyone was fucking miserable, but they didnt get a divorce "for my sake". So all of this was my fault, and as a child I fucking hated myself for being responsible for my parents unhappiness.
Never intended to go that in depth but there it is. So unless you know what this kind of abuse is and what kind of life the victims of sustained, chronic abuse go through, I ask that you refrain from judging Lisbeth's actions because she is a person that you cannot understand.
Your example is not cogent. The rapist's family has no right in taking revenge upon lisbeth because it would not be justified. Knowing that their family member changed this girl's life forever because of his depravity and his selfishness, then they would be committing an unjust crime if they ever took action against lisbeth for her justified actions.
1. So you have not been "raped" but abused and you have my condolences for that, but you can thusly not claim to know what "rape" feels like, since you also never experienced it. What you went through is horrible, but completely different.
2. So the rape victim gets to take revenge "based on his/her emotions" and the emotions of the other victims are worth jack sh*t.
I think it was MovieBob who said Lisbeth Salander is supposed to be some kind of fantasy girl; a perfect woman for the author to masturbate to. This kind of revenge fantasy fits in pretty well with that theory.
I doubt Larsson cracked one out to that idea. Quote wiki, and also the forward in some editions of the books: 'Larsson, aged 15, stood by as three of his friends gang-raped an acquaintance of his named Lisbeth. He did nothing to help her. Wracked with guilt, he begged her forgiveness days later, but she angrily refused. The incident haunted him for years afterward, and in part inspired him to create a character named Lisbeth who was also a rape victim.'
I haven?t read or seen The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, but this kind of reminds me of another film named Hard Candy, which
does a good way of really making you feel bad for the recipient of the ?revenge fantasy?, even though he?s admitted that he?s a child molester and possible murderer. Or at least, an accomplice in these events.
Why? Good question. At the beginning of the film, we?re introduced to a young teenage girl who?s basically a child prodigy, and a photographer who, in an early scene, is hinted at to be a hebephile. Not child molester, just a hebephile. We?re not explicitly told yet that he?s involved in the child molestation and murder of barely pubescent girls yet; just a small scene where the girl flashes him while changing and he?s clearly?let?s say, suspiciously unnerved by this. And then the girl later accompanies him to his house to pose for photos. You see where this is going?
?Oh, wait. No. The girl actually drugs him, ties up, and both physically and mentally tortures him over a lengthy period of time (including what looks to be a castration which she emotionally performs) into a confession of his crimes, an unexplained infatuation with a girl that has not yet been abused, and eventual suicide. The reason that the moral ambiguity of this whole film hits home so well is not only the compelling performances between the two main actors (Ellen Page and Patrick Wilson), but the fact that Page?s character is characterized as a sociopathic, somewhat sadistic, and narcissistic (judging by her ?judge, jury and executioner? mindset and repetition of her academic achievements) budding serial killer whose backstory is shrouded in mystery, while Wilson?s character is characterized as a strangely sympathetic but obviously dangerous sexual predator whose backstory is also shrouded in mystery (Page doesn?t seem to buy his attempt at a tear-jerking story of being accused and then abused by his auntie or something for being witness to his younger cousin exposing herself to him).
Also, the fact that we never see any of the abused/killed girls, or the photographs that he was said to have taken of them. We?re just told ?he may?ve touched and killed these girls, and he?s now going to get his balls cut off by some crazy 14-year-old girl; have fun squeaming?.
Anyway, on-topic, I think she was justified, since I operate on a somewhat arbitrary and non-strict moral code of ?eye for an eye?. If you effectively take away someone?s human rights for your own sadistic pleasure, then you effectively trade in your own. That?s not to say I?m in favour of the death penalty. I am in favour of the concept behind it. I mean, no-one shed a tear over Osama Bin Laden?s death, did they? Why? Because justice had been done. He killed thousands of innocent people because of his own bullshit agenda, so it?s right that he was killed himself, to balance out the stakes. In fact, I?d say that he should?ve been tortured more before being killed, so he could experience pain on the level of those that were trapped under buildings on 9/11. Justice can be revenge.
Yeah, you could call it a slippery slope, and ?it makes us as bad as them?, but you know what? Fuck that. At least Salander has a proper reason for raping someone other than ?I did it 4 the lulz?. She raped a rapist. Now they know how it feels, and can appreciate the reality of their crimes. Honestly, I?d be saying the same thing if a woman abused her position of power to rape a man, and then the man got revenge by giving her a taste of her own medicine. I don?t give a shit what equipment you?ve got down there; you need to understand that what you did was wrong, and punishment has to be dealt alongside rehabilitation.
Anyway, you know that people fucking love revenge films, right? Kill Bill, Taken, Man on Fire? But suddenly, it?s another level of cruel when it?s rape? I know why that is, but doesn?t that make things worse for the victims when you say ?rape is totally worse than murder, because a dead guy doesn?t have to suffer the mental anguish, and I know rape victims that would?ve rather died than live with the shame?? How fucking shit is that for rape victims that don?t want to off themselves, and just want to get on with their life without everyone walking on ice around them and treating them like charity cases?
What?s more, it?s a helluva lot better than letting convicted murderers, rapists, child molesters and the rest of the hellish bastards in the world live the good life in prison living in padded cells with three meals a day, fucking sports activities for them, cable TV and consoles to play on ? and all free of charge. There are some homeless people that even steal or whatever, and purposely get caught, so they can get sent to prison and at least have a roof over their head and not get hungry. The justice system urgently needs a shake-up, and it needs it now. Otherwise, I don?t blame people for going all vigilante on these wankstains.
The actor who played the rapist is Dutch, and in an interview he said that the rape scene was the emotional worst scene he has played in his entire career.
Quoth Wiki, and also the foreword in some editions of the books: 'Larsson, aged 15, stood by as three of his friends gang-raped an acquaintance of his named Lisbeth. He did nothing to help her. Wracked with guilt, he begged her forgiveness days later, but she angrily refused. The incident haunted him for years afterward, and in part inspired him to create a character named Lisbeth who was also a rape victim.'
Oh, so, instead of having imaginary sex to feel better about himself, he has imaginary heroism to feel better about himself.
I didn't actually have a pony in this race before and was just parroting what I vaguely (and probably incorrectly) remember MovieBob saying, but now I am sticking with it: Lisbeth Salander is definitely a masturbatory fantasy. It's just a different variety of masturbation.
Quoth Wiki, and also the foreword in some editions of the books: 'Larsson, aged 15, stood by as three of his friends gang-raped an acquaintance of his named Lisbeth. He did nothing to help her. Wracked with guilt, he begged her forgiveness days later, but she angrily refused. The incident haunted him for years afterward, and in part inspired him to create a character named Lisbeth who was also a rape victim.'
Except the hero in question is basically the girl he failed to save. You could say he's projecting an idealized version of himself onto the innocent girl whose rape had tormented him throughout his life.
I wonder how the real-life girl in question feels about what could be interpreted as him exploiting and/or trivializing her private ordeal in a book. It would've been better if he didn't use her actual name.
Except the hero in question is basically the girl he failed to save. You could say he's projecting an idealized version of himself onto the innocent girl whose rape had tormented him throughout his life.
The act itself has two main benefits for lisbeth. The first is revenge against him for the original rape, which to her is entirely justified as he has raped her TWICE at this point. The other is that he has complete control over her life such has her finances and the like. If she reports him she'll still have someone she has no reason to trust in control of her life which she doesn't want. So she blackmails him to have her declared reasonably competent, so that she regains control of her life as well as giving him a fitting punishment.
Except the hero in question is basically the girl he failed to save. You could say he's projecting an idealized version of himself onto the innocent girl whose rape had tormented him throughout his life.
Well...yes, but it's not as if he inserted himself into the story as saving a girl from rape. This time, the girl who'd been raped was the hero, even if it was likely a self-projection. Although, again, it could be interpreted as some kind of over-zealous feminist "Fuck yeah!"
At this point in the book she is a mess and fucked up in the head. She has had an almost laughably tragic life up until this point.
Just so people know where she is coming from.
SPOILER ALERT!!!
As a kid she watched as her mother was slowly beaten to death by her father. She couldn't report him because he was ex KGB and was being given protection by the government. One day it gets so bad that her mother passes out, she suffers incurable brain damage and has to give up her children. Lisbeth takes matters into her own hands and sets her father on fire as he is leaving by dowsing him in gasoline. She is then sent to a psychiatric ward were she is sexually abused by one of the doctors. The only reason that she attacked her father was because she loved her mother and had no one to turn to for help. It is also suggested that she has Autism, and she is really bad at reading social cues or talking with people she doesn't like. The only reason she is released is because the doctor's superior suspects something and gets approval for her to be released as a ward of the state.
END SPOILER
She doesn't trust the legal system. It has always worked against her in her past and she believes that she can only rely on herself. Her revenge on her rapist is simply part of her character, its not right but once you get to know her you understand why she did it. As the series goes on she becomes a lot calmer and starts to recover from the numerous traumas she experienced.
The movie got it right then. I've never actually felt a physical response to a piece of literature before that chapter in that book. My face was deep red, my forehead was sweating, my stomach was writhing and I had a lump in throat. It's a very intense piece of literature.
Quote Wiki, and also the foreword in some editions of the books: 'Larsson, aged 15, stood by as three of his friends gang-raped an acquaintance of his named Lisbeth. He did nothing to help her. Wracked with guilt, he begged her forgiveness days later, but she angrily refused. The incident haunted him for years afterward, and in part inspired him to create a character named Lisbeth who was also a rape victim.'
Oh, so, instead of having imaginary sex to feel better about himself, he has imaginary heroism to feel better about himself.
I didn't actually have a pony in this race before and was just parroting what I vaguely (and probably incorrectly) remember MovieBob saying, but now I am sticking with it: Lisbeth Salander is definitely a masturbatory fantasy. It's just a different variety of masturbation.
True, the sexualisation that went into the introduction of the character was nothing short of fetishistic, which strangely added to the perverse nature of the two rape sequences. I'm going on a limp here and saying Bob probably didn't read the books, and to add to the pretentious nature of it all, the characterization of the character was a critique of the environment she was raised into and how they developed her. Looking at the movie, I failed to see the masturbation factor, but I can see how it got translated as such a fantasy. And yes, you are quoting him right.
I just want to point out that as a swede, I hate the english translation of the title. the swedish title had purpose, the english one is just a description of the main character.
the real title translates into "men that hates women".
But pretty much everything about the american version of the movie was pretty bad if you ask me.
it felt like the american movie tried to be the swedish movie that was an interpretation of the book.
do you know how annoying it is when they put random swedish words into scenes just to point out they are actually swedes, even though they speak english? words that the actors can't pronounce any way.
but as mentioned above, the story does not try to justify her actions or make it right, but to understand it you need perspective.
as you read through all of the books you come to understand her actions further and further, because, without being too spoilery, she has been failed by the system in every possible way.
so when the system pushes this sadistic rapist onto her as her "guardian" this is the only satisfying solution she can see, that also gives her and edge and freedom she has previously been refused by the system in question.
if you just want the full explenation and get everything spoiled you click here:
Lisbeth salanders father is under the protection of Sapo (CIA pretty much), more specifically a super secure department withing sapo whos' purpose is to keep the kingdom safe at every cost imaginable.
when Lisbeth as a young child breaks down under the abuse she and her mother endures from her father without getting any help from the govenrment that instead just covers up for her father, she tries to murder him by throwing gasoline in his face and then put him on fire.
she is taken into custody by the government and her father is put through intensive care and survives.
to keep Lisbeth from saying anything she is not supposed to she is declared mentally ill and is put into mental care during most of her childhood.
when she reaches adulthood they screw with the system once more to strip her of all rights and declares that she is unable to take responsibility for her self and is assigned a guardian, and there by continues to keep tabs on her.
so basically, turning her guardian in would ammount to nothing but continued abuse by the system.
this way she fools the system by blackmailing the link between her and the system in question.
the rape and torture is in part a revenge fantasy, but also works as a reinforcement of fear ("I'm one crazy b*tch, mess with me and this happens") thereby making the blackmail much more efficient.
kick a dog too many time and even the most loyal one will bite back, might not be right, but in the face of hopelessness, what right can you do?
Do you know what characterisation is? This particular segment establishes a fairly defining characteristic of Lisbeth and her methods and ability to respond to things. She is also not meant to be terribly sympathetic at this point in the story.
Also how fucked up are you that you sympathise with the guy who thinks it's okay to rape an apparently simple girl under his care?
Why is rape okay as long as it happens to a "bad guy?" I simply don't buy that premise. It fucking hurts (I'd imagine), in addition to all of the other things that would happen to a person's psyche. You can't rape in self defense. She did it for her own masochistic pleasure. Next will we have a movie where the protagonist is a prison rapist, but it's "okay" because he only assaults convicted rapists? And the movie sees it as justified and we're supposed to be on that character's side?
I'd LOVE to see such a movie. As long as they make it realistic (statistically, most convicted rapists "raped" their girlfriend/boyfriend after turning 18, but before their significant other did). In the end the "protagonist" would realize that most, if not all people he raped were morally innocent. And then he would have to, by his internal logic, do something just as horrible to himself in order to punish his own wickedness.
I think it was MovieBob who said Lisbeth Salander is supposed to be some kind of fantasy girl; a perfect woman for the author to masturbate to. This kind of revenge fantasy fits in pretty well with that theory.
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