'Refer to the wiki' games.

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

So Im noticing that games(mostly indie) seem to be more and more forgoing tutorials and giving information, apparently relying or even directing us to go look up information

Is this good? Is it the new form of instruction manual? Or is it bad we need to go outside the game for info and potentially not be able to acess the information thanks to internet troubles?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I can tell you I'm playing System Shock 2 (1999) right now and I'm consulting the wiki every two steps.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/AllThereInTheManual/VideoGames

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

 

[MysticSlayer]

I don't even care about Internet troubles. I don't want to have to Alt-Tab out of the game constantly. Some games don't play nice with it, and it's a nuisance for those that do. There's also a trade-off: Keep the browser open to the Wiki and waste valuable resources or have to open the browser, look up something, and close the browser every time. And the more complex the game is, the worse this problem becomes. It's also lazy as hell, basically letting the community handle building a manual because you couldn't be bothered to cleverly work it into the game.

I know that in some cases it is probably part of the nostalgia, but that's something I think we can do without. Besides, with so many people getting games digitally, it isn't like we have a manual constantly next to us anymore.

 

[Worgen]

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

Does dark souls have that style? I had no issues with it without the wiki, I can only think of a couple bosses I used the wiki on and that was because I did't want to summon any help.

 

[Headsprouter]

Sometimes I wish games had a "stats for nerds" mode or menu.

You know, because people shouldn't have to go to the effort of datamining or experimenting in, say a multiplayer game where numbers make the difference in knowing what fights you can and can't win.

I don't know whether it's an issue with scaring off casuals or developers not wanting to be bothered.

 

[Recusant]

I have never felt more separated from the gaming community (or at least its zeitgeist) than the day when I bought Dark Souls and, trying to learn to play it, read through the manual. I've been gaming since Atari still existed in its original form, and I have NEVER seen a more laughably incomplete manual. I figured "Okay, this is (from what I've heard) not an especially complicated game; the tutorial should tell me what I need to know", only to find the tutorial only slightly less laughably incomplete. Okay, I know the basic controls; I know that I can spend humanity to kindle a bonfire (which is somehow different from just lighting it; good to the see the people who told me that "prince darkness Gannon stole the Triforce with power" back in the 80's are still working), and that will let my estus flask hold more charges; but what the heck an estus flask is (aside from "an undead favorite", which could mean anything), or how I gain humanity, or track how much I have, is totally absent. I head to the company's website to check its forums, only to find it doesn't have any. I'm told to "check the wiki", of which there are at least a half-dozen, all of which are eager to provide me with advanced strategies, but not the basic information I need to figure out how to play the damn game.

Dejected and alienated, I decided to pep myself up by taking a look at the manual for Stellaris, which had released the day before. Paradox, at least, was a company that understood the importance of clear communication. And I was absolutely flummoxed to discover that it didn't have one. Not one that wasn't publicly downloadable; none at all. It's all done via the tutorial, because apparently, an unsearchable, scarcely-if-not-un- bookmarked pattern of speech at half the speed a normal person reads, that can't be consulted from within the main game and has to interrupt it; is just more relatable to modern gamers, who don't want to have to waste time reading. If you don't understand how ridiculous that is, head over the Paradox forums and check the section on Europa Universalis 4, probably the most easily outsider-accessible game they've ever made. You'll note that you don't understand most of it; these are complex games with numerous complex intertwining systems, and nearly every complaint made is a lack of a system that makes things more complicated. It's a wonderful category of the gaming world for those of us who like that sort of thing; if it's not your cup of tea, RUN! It only gets worse from here. [Side note: before you leave entirely, head over to the Crusader Kings 2 forum; the posts there often have titles that sound like they come from the trashier cousins of the National Enquirer, like "How do I sleep with my sister?", "Why can't I elect the Voice of Satan?" and "I accidentally impregnated the pope".]

And that's just tutorials, that become out-of-date as soon as a major patch changes things. Forcing people to look onto a secondary web page that the company usually can't even be bothered to maintain is... Well, let's just say I know how the ankylosaurus felt watching the proto-birds and early mammals struggling for dominance at the end of the Cretaceous.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

You kids these days are all soft. Back in my day, all we got was a six page pamphlet with the controls, the warranty, and an advertising blurb for some other games; we had to figure the rest out for ourselves! Without the internet!

/yellsatcloud

 

[Wrex Brogan]

Minecraft on the PC was a cock and a half about that. On Consoles it's easier since the crafting menus show what you need to build things, but PC? Hope you memorized that shit, ************!

It's... quite annoying, really. Yes, Wiki's are great and have a lot of information on them, and can often make up for the lack of a manual or for large games where the information can be hard to track down like MMOs, but... it's better if that kind of shit is available inside the game? Especially since not all games are friendly to the whole 'Alt-Tab to Google' thing, or the wikis themselves are poorly maintained. Plus, since it's fan information instead of developer information, there's always the chance someone is getting it wrong, or putting subjective opinion in where fact should be instead (i.e. 'this is easily found' or 'this is the hardest enemy in game' kinda deal).

Stick that shit in the game, guys, a Codex/tutorial/help page isn't anymore immersion breaking than a Main Menu.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

Dark Souls had all the information, story included, in the game. You have to look for the story, but the basic controls and how to play are all there at the beginning.


Anyway, games like Destiny, where basically the entire story and backstory--stupid cards--are online where you have to create an account in order to access what you've killed in the game? That's dumb. It was the nail in the coffin for that game for me.

If the game is leaving out vital information--oh yeah, this is how you attack, this is how you run, this is the story--and just shoving it online, then that is bad in my book. That's lazy, and it's a sign that you probably focused on the wrong things when making your game.
But secrets, like hidden areas or special bosses or stuff you actually need to go looking for? I'm perfectly fine having to go to the internet to look it up.

 

[Redryhno]

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

Does dark souls have that style? I had no issues with it without the wiki, I can only think of a couple bosses I used the wiki on and that was because I did't want to summon any help.

Honestly with Dark Souls, there's some fucky things with a couple of the stats and how they work(poise, difference between poison and toxic and their resists, etc.) and a couple of the bosses attacks are a bit vague on what they do and how you're supposed to fight them(Demon Tree, hollow "FUCKAYOU" attack, Four Kings sorta, how to get Ornstein's godly digbick spear to drop,etc.).

But I'd say overall most of the hints and things can be found out if you read the items descriptions and listen to the NPC's. And general metroidvania recollection of locked off areas.

 

[ghalleon0915]

I think I'm ok with having the wiki as an ancillary source of info, as long as the necessary info is in-game. In Dark Souls, for example, my issue is with the various npc storylines. Without the wiki, there was no way I would have known how to save Solaire, or how to finish Siegmayer's line, and so forth. I found no clues/hints how to proceed in game, and what are the necessary triggers or point of no return. It's doubly worse because you are encouraged to explore and in doing so end up missing certain npc's who only spawn at a specific time or event ( I;m looking at you Dark Souls 2).

I hear Destiny was similar in what they did with the Compendium, in the sense that you had to go outside the game to get info although that was more about the lore? Point is, stuff like that should be in the game not external. Having said that, I compare it to the old Gamepro's and EGM of yore, except I don't have to wait 3-4 months after a game has come out and wiki's are constantly updated and more detailed. I do enjoy reading them and finding out what I missed, and wonder at the time some people have to find out some of the things posted. Seriously, a lot of the stuff posted involves tedious trial and error or experimentation; they must love whatever game they are contributing about.

Oh, and I am so guilty of using the Terraria wiki.

 

[KoudelkaMorgan]

Path of Exile is a game that pretty much requires a wiki to be any good at. Idk if people apart from its especially rabid and insular playerbase are even aware it still exists.

I am on yet another hiatus from it, mostly due to crippling technical issues that the devs haven't fixed in the weeks since they broke the game yet again.

You can only die to glitchy bs and lose weeks of xp so many times before you need to stop, and its sad that a decent game is perennially ruined by its developers both technically and via questionable design choices.

 

[Fox12]

I don't think the wiki should be necessary, but it can be used well. SCP containment breach had tons of awesome lore before the game came out. Games like Sunless Sea benefit from being part of an expanded universe. Wikis also create an environment where fans can pool information in order to understand games better. This is useful for games with multiple paths, like Undertale.

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

Hmm. I managed to get through the whole game without checking the wiki once. Personally, I kind of like the increase in subtlety. It's something that games have lacked for far too long.

 

[Nuuu]

I don't mind games that rely on wiki's for things like crafting, or detailed item specifications in rogue-lites, though it's usually possible and better for the game to just have a better explanatory system in it.

If i'm forced to look up wikis or tutorials for basic controls or important elements of the game, that is bad game design plain and simple.
Ignoring the whole Phil Fish spiel, what I hated most about Fez was many of its anti-cubes and language was hidden behind extremely obscure and barely hinted clues. It was almost impossible to get everything without help from a guide, and this is with an in-game map telling you where all the secrets are. QR readers are not fun/immersive either.

If you really want a game focused on using a wiki for whatever reason, put some form of access to the wiki in the game.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

No, Dark Souls sucked. Its such an obnoxious grind even with the Wiki!

And its a damn shame games are taking after that trial/error/GitGud/ConsultTheWikiCauseWeCouldn'tBeBotheredToTellYouShit style. Shame.

Does dark souls have that style? I had no issues with it without the wiki, I can only think of a couple bosses I used the wiki on and that was because I did't want to summon any help.

Id say Dark Souls 3 you dont need the wiki, but the little descriptions got a lot better than in the previous 2. Like nobody told you that prior to Dark Souls 3, Pyromancy had no stats to really boost it. It relied entirely on the upgrade level of the flame for damage, therefore any character could use it and if you built a 'pyromancer wizard' well, its time to use sorceries to get the most out of all that int......

 

[FPLOON]

Fuck those games that are only enjoyable by referring to some third-party wiki! Give me something physical to look at, dammit,if you're going to be pulling that shit with me! Unless you, too, are taking advice from this game:Other than that, I have no initial beef with them, per se, but if they give me false info at any crucial moment just leaves a sour taste in my mouth...

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Mostly it was Pokemon, but only for the more esoteric plot paths or if I'd not played for 6 months and needed a refresher. I don't count WoW since doing that shit is basically required, but other than that I only consult the Wiki if I've been banging my head against the wall for a week or two, or I'm on a New Game+ and I wanna figure out if I missed anything - like side quests in Deus Ex: HR.

 

[Saelune]

My issue with Dark Souls is more that it tries too hard to troll you. "Wow, you got some neat magic, where'd you get it?" "Oh, cool...bye forever". Even more confusing when it isn't clear when you are saying yes or no to him. That said, DS1 (and Bloodborne) aren't so bad with that compared to Demon Souls.

My issue is more with achievements. Missable achievements in games where going back isn't simple are my bane. I don't want to look for optimal playthroughs, Id rather go blind, but I don't want to screw myself over later. This is something Dark Souls 2 has a lot of.

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Final Fantasy XII.

I still liked it, but that was probably my least favourite aspect of the game. Not just the infamous 'Zodiac Spear', but a large number of Marks, Espers, and special items required certain conditions to find that no normal person would be able to guess.

For example: to make the Marilith appear, you must stand still in a certain room in a dungeon for over five minutes and not do anything. To make the Deathscythe appear, you must wander through one of the most dangerous areas of the game with all your party members at critical HP to lure it in. Another Mark only appears if you have your three female party members in front and offers no hints that this is the case, not even a report that it has been attacking women or something (compare to Hresvelgr in Wild Arms 5 where you're specifically told it only goes after children).

Then you have the Rare Game, which are hard to find even with a guide and will probably murder you if you find one any time before endgame levels.

Dark Souls too, but I see several have brought that up already. Vindication!