Rogue One may be the worst Star Wars movie to date

[Zontar]

Yeah, this might blow your mind, but people liked those movies.

So you're telling me that Toy Story 3 was on par with the likes of Good Night, and Good Luck or Munich? There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and giving a movie a perfect score. Hell most of my favourite movies are ones I wouldn't give more then a 6 to.

Also, there's a very different buzz going around when you compare the more "traditional" media with online reviewers. Make of that what you will...

Those guys tend to be much less critical of certain movies then they are others. Just look at how they responded last year to TFA, outside of the visuals that movie was at best of comparable quality as Revenge of the Sith, yet you'd think it was another Empire Strikes Back give what they said about it.

Oh GOD!! Why mention Mary Sue. Please lets not do this again.

I disagree with Saelune on pretty much everything, but Rey is a Mary Sue, and it made her so boring I legitimately thought Finn was the protagonist for over a month after the movie came out.

 

[Parasondox]

poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue

I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

Well, had it been my choice, the main characters would have been Luke and Han's kids as Jedi in training under Luke as he rebuilds the Jedi Order.

As for Poe, well, I was annoyed he was even alive. I was ready to applaud the new films for killing off a red herring hero at the start, so when he showed up again I just wrote him off.

Worse then the prequels? Worse then The Force Awakens?! I don't actually think that's possible. The film could be nothing but four hours of watching John Water's taint, and it would still be much better then The Force Awakens.

Still, this is disappointing. I was hoping that this would be the film that reignited my faith in the franchise. Clearly this is not the case.

Did you see it? I should be seeing it tomorrow. I hated TFA, cause well, it was a poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue, and though I liked Finn, his escape was... counter to his characterization.

My brother and I have been watching the old Star Wars movies, and just have Return of the Jedi left, and its interesting seeing what I had not before, such as...Yoda is awful, and the original Trilogy put TOOOOOOONS of effort into either training Luke to be awesome, or giving a reason why he can do what he does.

But Rogue One, well, it is still going to rip off an old Star Wars, but its a now non-canon DOOM style FPS, so it wont bother me as much. (Though RIP Kyle Catarn). It being more focused on a smaller event and not staring a Jedi, makes me hopeful.

Still, the next Episode film I will be going in quite cynical, but we will see. Episode I was awful, but II and III were better than the one before it, if nothing else.

Oh GOD!! Why mention Mary Sue. Please lets not do this again.

I didnt write the plot or the characters, dont get mad at me for calling out a Mary Sue when I see one. It has nothing to do with her being a woman, if that is your concern as Id be just as annoyed with her if she was a man written that way.

Dont be afraid to debate shitty writing.

I really don't care about Star Wars. I am just saying we had months of this argument in the beginning of the year and now's not the time to beat a dead horse... again.

 

[Saelune]

poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue

I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

Well, had it been my choice, the main characters would have been Luke and Han's kids as Jedi in training under Luke as he rebuilds the Jedi Order.

As for Poe, well, I was annoyed he was even alive. I was ready to applaud the new films for killing off a red herring hero at the start, so when he showed up again I just wrote him off.

Worse then the prequels? Worse then The Force Awakens?! I don't actually think that's possible. The film could be nothing but four hours of watching John Water's taint, and it would still be much better then The Force Awakens.

Still, this is disappointing. I was hoping that this would be the film that reignited my faith in the franchise. Clearly this is not the case.

Did you see it? I should be seeing it tomorrow. I hated TFA, cause well, it was a poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue, and though I liked Finn, his escape was... counter to his characterization.

My brother and I have been watching the old Star Wars movies, and just have Return of the Jedi left, and its interesting seeing what I had not before, such as...Yoda is awful, and the original Trilogy put TOOOOOOONS of effort into either training Luke to be awesome, or giving a reason why he can do what he does.

But Rogue One, well, it is still going to rip off an old Star Wars, but its a now non-canon DOOM style FPS, so it wont bother me as much. (Though RIP Kyle Catarn). It being more focused on a smaller event and not staring a Jedi, makes me hopeful.

Still, the next Episode film I will be going in quite cynical, but we will see. Episode I was awful, but II and III were better than the one before it, if nothing else.

Oh GOD!! Why mention Mary Sue. Please lets not do this again.

I didnt write the plot or the characters, dont get mad at me for calling out a Mary Sue when I see one. It has nothing to do with her being a woman, if that is your concern as Id be just as annoyed with her if she was a man written that way.

Dont be afraid to debate shitty writing.

I really don't care about Star Wars. I am just saying we had months of this argument in the beginning of the year and now's not the time to beat a dead horse... again.

Well, 1, Streisand Effect, and 2, its only an argument when someone challenges my view of it. If you dont care to be involved, dont get involved. If I and/or others wish to argue it that is our business.

Edit: and these arguments will keep coming up when new Star Wars movies come out. Hell, Im sure plenty of people are bringing up arguments about ALL the Star Wars films around now.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I saw it last night, thoroughly enjoyed it. There are a significant amount of things this did better than TFA, the story is more focused, the characters have great potential even if it's hard to develop them in the span of two hours. The female lead is more likable than Rey. As far as action goes, it gets off to a slow start, but picks up when things start blowing up. Darth Vadar seems imposing again. It's certainly better than the prequels.

The only major downside I can say about it is that the plot armor (also known as hero shield) is very apparent and thick, but not in the way you might expect.

I don't understand why people continuously hold up the OT as god's gift to man. It seems like nothing can climb the pedestal those movies get thrown up on.

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

My two bits:

Do I think reviewers give it a pass because it's Star Wars? Sure do. Whether it's nostalgia, fear of rabid fanboy reaction, or just wanting to be part of the zeitgeist, a lot of reviewers seem to leave objectivity at the door when assessing these movies. I'd argue the same happens with most Marvel movies too. None of this stuff is great filmmaking, just solid middle of the road multiplex fodder. I got flayed on several forums for suggesting that TFA was just an okay movie and that it shamelessly and cynically exploited fan nostalgia, so I don't expect this to be much different. I'm going in with nothing but low expectations and a man crush for Donnie Yen, so I imagine I won't be too disappointed either way. Either it will be good and surprise me, or it will be mediocre and my expectations will be met. I'm not invested enough in any of it to get worked up whatever happens.

 

[Zontar]

There are a significant amount of things this did better than TFA, the story is more original

Well to be fair it just not being a straight up remake of one of the previous movies assured that.

I don't understand why people continuously hold up the OT as god's gift to man. It seems like nothing can climb the pedestal those movies get thrown up on.

It's because in the case of A New Hope you've got a timeless movie, and in the case of Empire you have about as close to a perfect sequel as can be humanly achieved. Even 6 managed to tell an interesting story that finished some major arcs across the series despite rehashing the death star.

By comparison the prequels where straight up bad (though not all to the same degree), to the point where a feature length review/analysis as to why that was the case changed the way an entire generation consumes media (love it or hate it, the RLM review of Phantom Menace changed everything). Then TFA come out and it was a repetition of Phantom Menace: initially most people liked it but then over the months after it released it didn't hold up when the hype was removed and it not only wasn't a great movie, it wasn't even a good movie. In fact outside of the visuals it was a legitimately bad one, with horrible writing, an incoherent nonsensical plot and the writing being horribly dated. Though at least Phantom Menace tried to be different, which is more then anyone could say about TFA.

If a legitimately good Star Wars movie where made, it probably would be held up with the originals. Hell people want such a movie so bad we'll temporarily pretend things like the Prequels or TFA where in fact that good before people have had enough time to really think about it. But the originals seem to have been lightning in a bottle given the inability of anyone making movies since or trying to rip them off to capture that timeless quality again. The unwillingness to take risks to make something great (including RO having reshoots and being recut because there was too much 'war' in a Star Wars movie) by Disney basically assures that unless LucasFilms replaces their head with a Star Wars version of Kevin Feige we will never get a movie that takes the critical narrative risks needed to make a great movie.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

[So you're telling me that Toy Story 3 was on par with the likes of Good Night, and Good Luck or Munich? There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and giving a movie a perfect score. Hell most of my favourite movies are ones I wouldn't give more then a 6 to.

Considering that Toy Story 3 is often seen as one of the premier children's movies of our generation and that Munich is considered a flawed gem, sure. They don't compare directly because one is a light hearted-adventure with an incredibly overt moral, where the other is a dark, brooding introspection into the toll that violence and hate takes upon people. One is meant for literal six year olds, the other for a mature, politically and philosophically aware audience. You might as well ask if people prefer the taste of vanilla to the taste of bacon.

But also, yes, Toy Story 3 is much better than Munich. Munich to me was too bloated, too plodding and didn't seem to make up its' mind about whatever it should be subtle about its' message or if it should just clock me in the face with it. It was average, not bad, which I largely attribute to Spielberg being an absolutely amazing director, which probably saved a pretty shitty script.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

There are a significant amount of things this did better than TFA, the story is more original

Well to be fair it just not being a straight up remake of one of the previous movies assured that.

I didn't say it was a high bar, haha but the director made an honest effort to clear it. There's certainly a lot to it for a story with the premise "Why did the Death Star have an exhaust shaft conveniently placed there?"

It's because in the case of A New Hope you've got a timeless movie, and in the case of Empire you have about as close to a perfect sequel as can be humanly achieved. Even 6 managed to tell an interesting story that finished some major arcs across the series despite rehashing the death star.

I missed the train, so I find myself wondering, how much of these movies are actually good by the standard of their time period vs how much of this is colored by childhood nostalgia. I can understand A New Hope, the formula is a pretty standard one that'd been used before, but the setting in which it took place and amount of thought put into the mythos was novel for its time. What though constitutes a perfect sequel?

By comparison the prequels where straight up bad (though not all to the same degree), to the point where a feature length review/analysis as to why that was the case changed the way an entire generation consumes media (love it or hate it, the RLM review of Phantom Menace changed everything). Then TFA come out and it was a repetition of Phantom Menace: initially most people liked it but then over the months after it released it didn't hold up when the hype was removed and it not only wasn't a great movie, it wasn't even a good movie. In fact outside of the visuals it was a legitimately bad one, with horrible writing, an incoherent nonsensical plot and the writing being horribly dated. Though at least Phantom Menace tried to be different, which is more then anyone could say about TFA.

I agree, I didn't personally think TFA was anything special. It was meant to be a nostalgia inducing rehash of A New Hope. To that effect, it was successful, but that's all I can say about it. I don't personally care much for J.J. as a director.

If a legitimately good Star Wars movie where made, it probably would be held up with the originals. Hell people want such a movie so bad we'll temporarily pretend things like the Prequels or TFA where in fact that good before people have had enough time to really think about it. But the originals seem to have been lightning in a bottle given the inability of anyone making movies since or trying to rip them off to capture that timeless quality again. The unwillingness to take risks to make something great (including RO having reshoots and being recut because there was too much 'war' in a Star Wars movie) by Disney basically assures that unless LucasFilms replaces their head with a Star Wars version of Kevin Feige we will never get a movie that takes the critical narrative risks needed to make a great movie.

This goes back to how much people are willing to overlook their own nostalgia as well as the film making landscape. A New Hope was a product of its time, just like Final Fantasy 7 in that regard. It was great because it was the first or one of the first of its kind. Now that what made it so unique has become par for the course, the feeling the originals produced may never be replicated. At least not in the same franchise.

You could get a wild card director in there who doesn't give a shit about the reaction of the fans and so is willing to take risks, but last time that happened... it was George Lucas himself and look how that turned out.

 

[Zontar]

Considering that Toy Story 3 is often seen as one of the premier children's movies of our generation

By some, maybe. Guess having not seen the original two at the right age made the nostalgia not factor in for me, so I could see the gaping flaws the movie had (it's a solid 8, I'll admit, but it's no 9, and it's definitely no 10).

 

[Zontar]

I missed the train, so I find myself wondering, how much of these movies are actually good by the standard of their time period vs how much of this is colored by childhood nostalgia. I can understand A New Hope, the formula is a pretty standard one that'd been used before, but the setting in which it took place and amount of thought put into the mythos was novel for its time. What though constitutes a perfect sequel?

For its time A New Hope was revolutionary. It redefined what science fiction movies where (though some would argue in a bad way), had to have entire cinematic techniques and special effect technologies created for it and basically created the blockbuster as we know it (many say Jaws did this, but the sheer difference in scale between Jaws and A New Hope is just too large. Star Wars was a blockbuster in the literal sense).

What also made Empire so great, appart from being a good sequel (a rare thing even to this day) was that it did everything right. It was different from what it was a sequel to (to the point the tone isn't anything resembling the first) while expanding the mythology, developing the characters, and is in many ways the movie that defines the entire IP (Vader went from secondary to primary character in it, and Imperial March was from it). The pacing was just right so that no sense last too long or are too short, you always know what's happening, and the characters feel real.

It's the perfect sequel due to the fact it takes the spirit of the first and keeps it while being completely different, yet at the same time a better movie.

I agree, I didn't personally think TFA was anything special. It was meant to be a nostalgia inducing rehash of A New Hope. To that effect, it was successful, but that's all I can say about it. I don't personally care much for J.J. as a director.

On the bright side, given Disney's love for money we'll eventually get better movies. Nostalgia only works for so long, so the movies retaining their current level of quality isn't going to be viable in the long run if they keep pumping out one each year. Marvel at least has the advantage of having a much larger range of story types it can easily tell.

This goes back to how much people are willing to overlook their own nostalgia as well as the film making landscape. A New Hope was a product of its time, just like Final Fantasy 7 in that regard. It was great because it was the first or one of the first of its kind. Now that what made it so unique has become par for the course, the feeling the originals produced may never be replicated. At least not in the same franchise.

You could get a wild card director in there who doesn't give a shit about the reaction of the fans and so is willing to take risks, but last time that happened... it was George Lucas himself and look how that turned out.

Lucas is good with the broad ideas, but he needs others to make those ideas work.

Really the problem isn't that they can't find directors who don't care about the reaction, Rogue One's original cut was likely a decent movie. The problem is you have corporate suits who want to maximise short term profits (even at the cost of long term ones) who'd rather manage to get the four demos (old men, old women, young men, young women) with a subpar movie then get one or two of those demos with a good movie (because apparently only Fox learned anything from Deadpool).

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah, this might blow your mind, but people liked those movies.

So you're telling me that Toy Story 3 was on par with the likes of Good Night, and Good Luck or Munich? There's a big difference between enjoying a movie, and giving a movie a perfect score. Hell most of my favourite movies are ones I wouldn't give more then a 6 to.

Uh, are the critics? And why exactly are you comparing the two? A good score is an indicator that the reviewer liked the movie, that it did what it set out to do. If I give a movie a ten out of ten, am I declaring "better than Shindler's List?" because I can't give a movie a high score unless I'm comparing it to every movie ever made? Because scores don't really work as a competition when the movies in question are as different as night and day. Mindsets like these are why the term "Oscar bait" is a thing. You wouldn't give your favorite movies above a 6? Well good for you, but you seem to be in the minority on that one.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I watched it yesterday and honestly I thought it was better than TFA mainly cos of its originality (not a rehash). Heck while it still got abit of fanservice but it does set itself differently from the others right at the very start of it! Ok sure the start was abit staggering but the last part was great at tieing in to episode 4!

 

[Kae]

I'm not going to act like I'm optimistic about the movie just like I wasn't about Episode VII which in the end I didn't like but I think I'll reserve my judgment for when I see it, though judging from the trailers it does look like trash to me.

 

[Kolby Jack]

Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

 

[Qizx]

poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue

I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

I mean not going to go over her being Mary Sue again, but with Poe it at least kind of makes sense. He's the rebels best pilot, been piloting for a long time, so yeah he's going to be damn good at it. Not saying it's not a little annoying but it at least makes SENSE he's good.

Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

 

[happyninja42]

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

Because there are people out there, who are quite vocal in social media, who express a pathological level of hatred/dislike for something, without ever having actually seeing it. Just on the simple fact that it exists. So yes, there is some precedent for Kolby Jack's statement. Sure there are people who simply don't like things that are popular. We all have something like that. Like me for example, I can't stand the Thrawn trilogy, despite the majority of Star Wars fans considering it the fucking holy grail of writing. I think it's utter shit and that Thrawn is a ridiculous Marty Stu character. But hey, the majority of people like it, so whatever. I don't really care. You don't like TFA, fine, plenty of people don't like it either, some of them have legit reasons for their dislike of it, some are just unstable and volatile and toxic, and hate it simply because it's not the thing they already love. Those are the people Jack is referring to. If you're not one of those people, then his comment wasn't directed at you.

 

[Qizx]

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

Because there are people out there, who are quite vocal in social media, who express a pathological level of hatred/dislike for something, without ever having actually seeing it. Just on the simple fact that it exists. So yes, there is some precedent for Kolby Jack's statement. Sure there are people who simply don't like things that are popular. We all have something like that. Like me for example, I can't stand the Thrawn trilogy, despite the majority of Star Wars fans considering it the fucking holy grail of writing. I think it's utter shit and that Thrawn is a ridiculous Marty Stu character. But hey, the majority of people like it, so whatever. I don't really care. You don't like TFA, fine, plenty of people don't like it either, some of them have legit reasons for their dislike of it, some are just unstable and volatile and toxic, and hate it simply because it's not the thing they already love. Those are the people Jack is referring to. If you're not one of those people, then his comment wasn't directed at you.

Oh for sure there are people that will hate something just to hate it, but I dislike the notion that when someone hates something it HAS to be for that reason. If someone hates something just to hate it, yeah they're a twat, but it's possible to hate something that a lot of people like and genuinely hate it for what it is.

 

[happyninja42]

Oh for sure there are people that will hate something just to hate it, but I dislike the notion that when someone hates something it HAS to be for that reason. If someone hates something just to hate it, yeah they're a twat, but it's possible to hate something that a lot of people like and genuinely hate it for what it is.

Yeah, but there are a decent number, on this site as Jack mentioned, that don't really explain why they don't like it. They just toss out "It sucks!" and go from there, even having not seen the movie at all. It is present on this site, the threads with click baity titles, unsubstantiated claims based on little to no evidence, stating an opinion as if it's a fact, etc. You don't have to dive too deep into the threads of this site to find a plethora (thank you 3 Amigos) of examples.

 

[Fox12]

Worse then the prequels? Worse then The Force Awakens?! I don't actually think that's possible. The film could be nothing but four hours of watching John Water's taint, and it would still be much better then The Force Awakens.

Still, this is disappointing. I was hoping that this would be the film that reignited my faith in the franchise. Clearly this is not the case.

Did you see it? I should be seeing it tomorrow. I hated TFA, cause well, it was a poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue, and though I liked Finn, his escape was... counter to his characterization.

My brother and I have been watching the old Star Wars movies, and just have Return of the Jedi left, and its interesting seeing what I had not before, such as...Yoda is awful, and the original Trilogy put TOOOOOOONS of effort into either training Luke to be awesome, or giving a reason why he can do what he does.

But Rogue One, well, it is still going to rip off an old Star Wars, but its a now non-canon DOOM style FPS, so it wont bother me as much. (Though RIP Kyle Catarn). It being more focused on a smaller event and not staring a Jedi, makes me hopeful.

Still, the next Episode film I will be going in quite cynical, but we will see. Episode I was awful, but II and III were better than the one before it, if nothing else.

I haven't seen it yet. Unlike TFA, and many of the coming prequels, I actually liked the premise of this film. This will probably be the last Star Wars film I'll be seeing in a long time. I really want to like Star Wars, but Disney is making it rather difficult.

I would love to see more non-jedi related films, though. And films with new characters.

 

[Fox12]

Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.