Roll? Praying? Game?

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Hurr Durr Derp

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Just because your DM made you play D&D like it was a videogame, doesn't mean that's what PnP RPGs are all about.

If you think Final Fantasy plays more like D&D than Oblivion does, I'd like to have a word or two with your DM. Maybe I can give him some hints on how not to completely suck.
 

pope_of_larry

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Veldt Falsetto said:
Now just before you dismiss this, my friend role plays, not in games but in forums or on myspace and she RPs as characters from games or anime and such, she therefore acts as a pre-made character from whatever. This is role playing, right? Wait theres more, some people even RP as real people on Twitter, I've seen people RP as Jo Whiley (a radio presenter) and Rebecca Breeds (an actress) and while this is weird, it's still role playing.
much in the way that you rope play as master chief in halo.
 

Akiada

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Glademaster said:
Look JRPGs are RPGs and that is that. As much as people like to argue they aren't they are. Choice has nothing to do with RPG games.
It has everything to do with them. Video game RPGs arose from Tabletop ones, where you can had virtually unlimited choice in what to do.

Stats are meaningless, because whilst only RPGs seem to deign to show you, all games have stats. Your pistol in generic FPS #5? It has stats. It does X damage per shot, has Y spread on it's fire cone, and Z magazine capacity.
 

Danzaivar

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It all boils down to choice, really. I think Yahtzee hit the nail on the head with his review of (i think) World Ends With You, where he shows the character on a cart-thing that he just has to pull to the right spot and wait while he does his thing, before moving him to the next bit, and on and on til the end of the game. You don't so much become the character as just...well...shift them about the place.

WRPG's (Let's use Fable II, terrible example but hey) on the other hand have general themes and ways to go, but are much more open in terms of letting you fill in the details, (what your motive is, what the end goal will be, etc).

The JRPG approach lets the writer portray much more vivid characters and grander stories, but the WRPG way lets you get more 'involved' and thus more immersed in the story. Just depends what you prefer.

Ironically, Japanese games are quite good for multiple choices/outcomes, but it's usually their survival horror games i.e. silent hill and resident evil, that give them; different endings to boot.

When I was younger I much preferred JRPGs, but these days I tend to prefer the Western way (JRPGs can still be fun tho, as long as it's not too heavy on the androgynous teenage angst and the power of friendship spiel...).

b.t.w. I've never even played D&D and I can tell you that you was doing something wrong if you picked a template and was pretty much just going on auto-pilot.
 

Optimus Hagrid

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JRPGs and WRPGs are both game in which you play roles. Therefore they are both role-playing games.

Is there something I'm missing here?

DisturbiaWolf13 said:
My main problem with JRPGs are that i honestly don't think of them as true RPGs and heres why: although technically you could justify calling any game in wich you play a character a RPG, i honestly think of that simply as poor wording, sure you almost always play a role in a video game, but that does not mean you are playing an RPG. I think people get confused and think that ''playing a role'' is the same as ''roleplaying'' see in JRPGs you play a role (as you do in all games) while in RPGs (WRPGs)you roleplay - you act.

EDIT-I just read that back and realized it is almost impossible to make sense of.Sorry :(
Pretty much my situation.

Maybe we should just call them both MURDER SIMULATORS and leave it at that.
 

TheSeventhLoneWolf

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Comparing JRPG's and WRPG's is pointless, it's like comparing marmite to chocolate, some people like one, some people like the other. Some people like both.

Neither are superiour.
 

HellsingerAngel

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Ok... this might be another wall of text, but I'll try and make it as painless as possible. Here goes:

The main flaw with this argument is that you're comparing two culturally different experiences (WRPGs vs. JRPGs) with one cultures backstory (D&D). The fact is, the Japanese don't view role-playing in the same light as us Western folk. Where as Western RPGs revolved around choices, customization and overall free form thinking, Japanese role=playing involves more storytelling, imersion into pre-set characterizations and realisations about personalities you never may have recognised before. It's more of a learning experience to get you out of your shell, where as western philosophy on the matter more encourages using your own personality to overcome extraordinary circumstances. Let's get some examples up here, shall we?

First I'll delve into Dungeons and Dragons. As most of us know, D&D is a game about character creation. It lets you pick from a wide veriaty of classes, who have a robust line-up of abilities and powers to conquer a world in the way you see fit. It allows statistical customization of your characters, while throwing in circumstancial chance by having you roll to determine your overall strength. The character then plays out a determined personality, chosen from the beginning, and grows as a person in both personality and statistics as he or she adventures through the world before them. It encourages out-of-the-box thinking as well as puzzling solving and good judgement. These campaigns are mainly set in western-esque settings including broadswords, heavy armour and races of mythology, but have spread out to accomidate wuxian (asian kung-fu style, think Journey to the West) adventures as well.

Now what do the Japanese have to counter this? While possibly not the first tabletop RPG to ever come out in Japan, my first taste of their style was from Tenra Bansho Zero. This particular game is steeped in a sort of cyber-punk feeling as humanity has now gone into space to find habitable planets. So who's going into space? Well, children who pilot mecha, warrior caste with shiki demons bound to jewels inside them called "Samurai", cyborg "Kijin" who obtain perfection through replacing flesh with steel and a "Shinobi" caste of spies who insert battery packs into themselves to give them super-human powers! The main differences are how the characters interact with the world. It plays out more like a Kabuki play, where your characters form a story rather than make choices. They interact with others and reactions are never determined by persoanlity, they're rolled for. Sure, you can get modifiers for persoanltiy traits, Karma points and such, but on the whole your reactions are not your own, they're determined by the role of some dice and a chart. You then have to act, in character, that reaction and disposition to NPCs and try to immerse yourself into your newfound, developed role.

So we stand here at a cross-raods, where there are similarities, but also some big differences between the two cultures. If you look at their progression into video games, however, you can see huge similarities. The Japanese prefer story, where as the West perfer choice and gameplay. It's a style and both have stuck to what they do best. So take each for what it is and enjoy both!

http://www.tenra-rpg.com/blog/ (Link to some TBZ in english)
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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DnD is an RPG with certain pre-defined rules. An RPG can literary be about anything using any mechanics but since people don't want to make up games on the spot they turn to certain pre-defined systems like DnD (and dice) to set up frameworks. From what I see most Tabletop RPGs seem to revolve around systems of states and dice. States let you customize characters and dice give random odds to situations.

Video game RPGs are actually set up around the idea of states. Most RPGs are defined by there heavy reliance on states(namely levels) to decide combat more then there ability to offer custom roles to play. They also tend to be more open about where you can go and have less pre-defined linear paths. Now, it's impossible for a game to be as flexible as the real world since you can only program so much so RPGs in games will always force you to be one thing or another and thus have limited options. Still, WRPGs often let you choose states and pick in which order and at what time you will do stuff. JRPGs tend to give you less options but weave a more complex narrative. Customization is still an option in them. In the end though, there less about role playing and more about states. States are so popular in fact that pretty much every game is borrowing this system in some way now-a-days.

Video game RPGs are really defined by what has been called an RPG and what hasn't. They are distinct from other types of games but there actual name is a bit of a misnomer.
 

GamingAwesome1

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The problem with JRPGS not being "roleplaying games" generally tends to be a lack of the former. In games such as Mass Effect, Oblivion and Fallout 3 you could choose how your character behaved towards other people.

In most JRPGS you are just the person who takes over for the combat while the characters act how they were predetermined to, crushing any and all control the player has over the events of the game. It's not that hard a concept to grasp, JRPGS just need more interactivity and less knocking everyone off to sleep with pre-made cutscenes.
 

Acidwell

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Jun 13, 2009
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Schnookums said:
Acidwell said:
4. Fully turn based Combat system
I agreed with everything but this. Turn based combat is part of most RPGs.
Yes turn based combat is part of most rpgs. But it is more likely to find non fully turn based rpgs in western style.
Eg: Dragon Age, Neverwinter nights, the witcher, oblivion, morrowind, mass effect, knights of the old republic, fallout 3.
 

Vortigar

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Twilight_guy said:
Exactly, there's a massive difference between the definition of the word rpg depending on whether you're talking about the pen and paper rpg or the video game rpg.

In video games rpg means you'll get a game that's mainly story driven where your character(s) gets xp (or whatnot) and becomes more powerful as you go along. These elements have slowly been spreading into other games and vice-versa gameplay elements from other games have been creeping into rpg's. Making video game genre definitions a very vague thing.

Pen and paper rpg's can take almost any form but the basic idea is that you play out a certain role. It's an acient practice really, murder mystery games based on cards that tell you who you are in the scenario are incredibly old. DnD revolutionized the idea by assigning stats and let actions' outcomes be decided by dice rolls and thus became the 'first' role-playing-game.

HellsingerAngel said:
The main differences are how the characters interact with the world. It plays out more like a Kabuki play, where your characters form a story rather than make choices. They interact with others and reactions are never determined by persoanlity, they're rolled for. Sure, you can get modifiers for persoanltiy traits, Karma points and such, but on the whole your reactions are not your own, they're determined by the role of some dice and a chart. You then have to act, in character, that reaction and disposition to NPCs and try to immerse yourself into your newfound, developed role.
I never knew that existed! Sounds fascinating.

ps.
Yes I know Paranoia but never played it.
 
Jun 11, 2008
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Akiada said:
Glademaster said:
Look JRPGs are RPGs and that is that. As much as people like to argue they aren't they are. Choice has nothing to do with RPG games.
It has everything to do with them. Video game RPGs arose from Tabletop ones, where you can had virtually unlimited choice in what to do.

Stats are meaningless, because whilst only RPGs seem to deign to show you, all games have stats. Your pistol in generic FPS #5? It has stats. It does X damage per shot, has Y spread on it's fire cone, and Z magazine capacity.
Stats and experience points are what makes a RPG a RPG in the world today. Just because that was the meaning doesn't mean it is still the meaning. The meaning of words change like gay doesn't have the same meaning today. JRPGs are RPGs trying to argue the point they aren't is stupid because you still have choices to not to do side quests which is still a choice and you still play a role. Even still by your definition they are still RPGs. You can ***** about lack of choice until hell freezes over but they are still RPGs. Choice does not make a game a RPG it is part of it but it is not the be all and end all of RPGs.
 

lucky_sharm

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The topic title should be "Rorr? Praying? Game?", since it's apparently supposed to be a joke on how Japanese people say pronounce words with L's in them. Veeeerrry original by the way, OP.

Acidwell said:
I think the things that most people object to in jrpgs are:
1. Androgynous teen characters
2. Giant Swords
3. Generic plot
4. Fully turn based Combat system
All four of those are just stereotypes and generalizations of JRPGS, you know.
 

Acidwell

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Jun 13, 2009
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lucky_sharm said:
The topic title should be "Rorr? Praying? Game?", since it's apparently supposed to be a joke on how Japanese people say pronounce words with L's in them. Veeeerrry original by the way, OP.

Acidwell said:
I think the things that most people object to in jrpgs are:
1. Androgynous teen characters
2. Giant Swords
3. Generic plot
4. Fully turn based Combat system
All four of those are just stereotypes and generalizations of JRPGS, you know.
Yes they are but at least 2 of them are a standard in every jrpg of the last 10-15 years
 

Auric

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JRPG's tend to be far more linear in my experience.

Plus no character creation, generally you dont pump your stats or train them or similar, they all seem to go up predetermined, turn based combat, which i always found pretty dull, etc.
 

Akiada

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Glademaster said:
Stats and experience points are what makes a RPG a RPG in the world today. Just because that was the meaning doesn't mean it is still the meaning.
Just because something is used incorrect doesn't mean we have to change the official meaning. People today call an ammo magazine "clips", but soldiers and other firearms professionals still use the term "magazine" because it's more correct (since a clip is specific type of ammo-holder that slots into a magazine to load it).

Just because Diablo and others has given people the assumption that stats = RPG doesn't make it true. Stats and XP are a part of RPG, but as an outgrowth of that underlying choice. In Deus Ex I can only install one modification into, for example, my skin mod slot. This is permanent, too. It's not only an upgrade for my character (Stat/XP), but it's a fundamental choice because on one hand I can install this mod that makes me able to wade through bullets like rain, or this other one that enables me to laugh off attempt to taser me or burn me with plasma.

That's how RPGs roll. They're about choice. These choices not only affect the story, but they affect how your character evolves. You don't move along some linear path ("You're you! But stronger in every fashion!") but have the leeway to change your path. I can go through and be sneaky one time, another I can be a combat monster, etc.

The meaning of words change like gay doesn't have the same meaning today. JRPGs are RPGs trying to argue the point they aren't is stupid because you still have choices to not to do side quests which is still a choice and you still play a role. Even still by your definition they are still RPGs. You can ***** about lack of choice until hell freezes over but they are still RPGs.
The choice is not participate in content is hardly a choice. It's choice that means nothing. True choice has consequence. You can do Quest X and get reward Y, but people Z suffer for it. If you refuse the quest-giver then later in the game people Z are doing fine but the questgiver's thugs ambush you at random tavern #34, etc.

Choice that means nothing is not a choice.
 
Jun 11, 2008
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Akiada said:
Glademaster said:
Stats and experience points are what makes a RPG a RPG in the world today. Just because that was the meaning doesn't mean it is still the meaning.
Just because something is used incorrect doesn't mean we have to change the official meaning. People today call an ammo magazine "clips", but soldiers and other firearms professionals still use the term "magazine" because it's more correct (since a clip is specific type of ammo-holder that slots into a magazine to load it).

Just because Diablo and others has given people the assumption that stats = RPG doesn't make it true. Stats and XP are a part of RPG, but as an outgrowth of that underlying choice. In Deus Ex I can only install one modification into, for example, my skin mod slot. This is permanent, too. It's not only an upgrade for my character (Stat/XP), but it's a fundamental choice because on one hand I can install this mod that makes me able to wade through bullets like rain, or this other one that enables me to laugh off attempt to taser me or burn me with plasma.

That's how RPGs roll. They're about choice. These choices not only affect the story, but they affect how your character evolves. You don't move along some linear path ("You're you! But stronger in every fashion!") but have the leeway to change your path. I can go through and be sneaky one time, another I can be a combat monster, etc.

The meaning of words change like gay doesn't have the same meaning today. JRPGs are RPGs trying to argue the point they aren't is stupid because you still have choices to not to do side quests which is still a choice and you still play a role. Even still by your definition they are still RPGs. You can ***** about lack of choice until hell freezes over but they are still RPGs.
The choice is not participate in content is hardly a choice. It's choice that means nothing. True choice has consequence. You can do Quest X and get reward Y, but people Z suffer for it. If you refuse the quest-giver then later in the game people Z are doing fine but the questgiver's thugs ambush you at random tavern #34, etc.

Choice that means nothing is not a choice.
That is how tabletop RPGs work and we aren't playing those or talking about them we are talking about Video game RPGs and JRPG which are no the same of what they come from. If you want to think about it that way the DM has said ok we are going to do a main plot and everything else is inconsequential as seriously how would you have time to do the amount of side quests in ME while Saren is out to destroy the Galaxy.

There are choice in JRPGs too in that respect you can choose what magic you want to give to your characters what weapons and other tstuff in that respect too. The Sphere grid is a great example of this. Just because there are less choices in JRPgs doesn't make them become not a RPG.

Also very, very few WRPGs actually give you real choice quests. The Bethesda ones are a great example of this. Yes you can change the out come of the quest but it makes very little difference what so ever to the main world. Nothing is missing from it nothing has changed just what item you get maybe if even that. You can't just say JRPGs are guilty of this. Also why is choosing not to participate not a choice. By choosing to do something you are making a choice.

The person with post 53 and the second person that they have quoted have explained why they are a RPG better than I have.
 

Thaius

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Veldt Falsetto said:
I've heard things like 'but you don't create your own character' or 'but I don't get to choose anything' but how are they staples of the RPG genre?
I may have only been exposed to WRPGs this gen and only played DnD once but when I did play DnD, I was given a character with fixed skills and weaponry and the only choice I made was whether to flee or not, everything was decided by die, there were no towns, no shops and I don't remember but I don't think I even had levels or exp.
Umm... what the heck kind of D&D did you play? You're supposed to make your own character, choose your race, class, and roll your skills and assign your results to various attributes. You create your character in a huge, huge way. Your DM must have sucked too, 'cause there are supposed to be towns and shops all that crap. Plus, you should be choosing how to attack, move, run, jump, everything: it is as close to limitless as a game can get. So I don't know what you played, but that was a real sucky excuse for D&D. And yes, there are levels and experience points.

That said, I think those who refuse the JRPG classification as an RPG are morons, just for different reasons than you do. Namely, it was simply impossible for computer games to have the freedom of a tabletop RPG in the olden days of video games. The Japanese figured out how to create a video game with the basic principles of RPGs while still making it possible to play it as a video game. Thus, they may not have all the elements of the original, tabletop RPGs, but they are the original RPGs in terms of video games and how they translate the RPG. Without the influence of the JRPG, WRPGs would not be what they are, and due to their originality and influence they are no less an RPG than WRPGs are, regardless of how close they stay to the principles of tabletop RPGs. They are just different styles: it's a natural progression, really. They focused more on the story in the absence of the ability to do freedom, and they still mostly focus on story (which I personally would take over freedom any freaking day). The west came late to the party, and we started expanding the freedom aspect of RPGs. It's a difference in style based on time and influence, but one is no less legitimate than the other. Anyone who says so is an ethno-centric and closed-minded fool.