Root's Fairly Interesting Topics: Time To Die

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Another Wednesday, another topic. Let's see where this one goes.

A lot has been talked about death recently, with a flurry of topics spawned by the AI Director to coincide with the idea of Zombies. But even in this "fantasy", there are huge mistakes.

"Chest Paddles", for instance, can't bring the dead back to life. They can restore the heart's beat, but resurrection? Nope.

But it does bring me to that shadowy veil between Life and Death, so this week's unanswerable question is:

At what point do you actually "die"?

Whether it's brain-death, soul leaving the body, breath cessation or lack of electro-neural activity, it's important for medical professionals (and hackneyed detectives); but with ideas like the original zombies [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvius_Narcisse], Juliet's heart-stopping poison [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_Juliet] or the effects of drugs - can we really pinpoint the time where life ceases?

Just a few points:
Please don't flame, it's a discussion, which means there can be multiple "right" answers.
Anyone can post, I'm not being elitist here. In fact the more people with low post-counts, the happier I'll be

 

[Dragon_of_red]

I think that whe nyour dead is when pretty much all those things happen at once, you can't breath, your heart stops beating, and your brain pretty much has shut down. It has to be for atleast 10 minutes i would say too...

If a drug that isnt designed to do that does that, you should probably re market it as a suicide pill...

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I think that whe nyour dead is when pretty much all those things happen at once, you can't breath, your heart stops beating, and your brain pretty much has shut down.

Medically, the legal point of death is when you haven't shown any ECG activity for 24 hours, but if you want to get a kidney out of that body, then you can't really wait for all of those things to happen.

 

[TheSeventhLoneWolf]

I'd say death is when you stop functioning. You can be bought back with paddles yes. But you would still have been 'clinically dead.'

From a spiritual standpoint, it's quite possibly when 'your soul leaves your body.'

 

[Trivun]

I reckon 'death' just happens when your brain stops functioning completely. Even in things like the 'original zombie' and R&J that Root mentions in his OP, and even with things like REM sleep, the brain still continues to function even if it's only at a small level. As soon as the brain stops functioning completely, that's when you die. That's how I understand it, at least...

 

[manaman]

I think that whe nyour dead is when pretty much all those things happen at once, you can't breath, your heart stops beating, and your brain pretty much has shut down.

If a drug that isnt designed to do that does that, you should probably re market it as a suicide pill...

The problem arises because they don't all occur at the same time.

You can lose all neural activity while still technically being alive, "living" only because machines are forcing you to breath. You can be pretty much brain dead and still able to breath on your own with minimal or no assistance.

I'm of the opinion that brain death is pretty much it for a person. Hell I am also of the opinion that serious brain damage is bit of a death of sorts, as the person that once was is sometimes no longer there afterward.

Root is right, you really do need a point that is accepted as death, otherwise you could try to argue someone is alive right up to cellular death.

As a note: anything that a person has a even a low chance of recovery should not be considered death in my opinion. Like a coma patient, even if I only had a 1% chance of recovery I would hate to be left to die, 1% is still 1%, and you never know that breakthrough might be just around the corner.

I'd say death is when you stop functioning. You can be bought back with paddles yes.

Paddles don't being you back. If anything they do the exact opposite of what you think. The machine is a defibrillator. It stops the heart, then hopefully the body is able to restart it with a more natural rhythm.

 

[Arachon]

Brain death is a pretty good way to define "dead", I suppose breath cessation and cardiac arrest works too, if all attempts to resuscitate the victim, have failed.

Also

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

 

[Amnestic]

You're dead when you can't be brought back.

Or at least, that's what a doctor colleague of my dad said.

I'm inclined to go with this answer, although the idea of being "dead" (i.e. no heartbeat, no neural activity, whatever) and then being resuscitated by medical science [http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-04-10/1239350980970.jpg] so you can say "I died, but I got better." is one which appeals to me greatly.

 

[Fire Daemon]

My guess is that after the circulation of blood is stopped and your cells are starved of oxygen is when you are dead. After having your head removed you are still alive for a certain amount of people, in fact I've actually heard that if shock doesn't send you unconscious you you are aware that your head has removed from the body for a short amount of time, about enough to fall into the basket at the base of the guillotine.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

...Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...

 

[manaman]

Brain death is a pretty good way to define "dead", I suppose breath cessation and cardiac arrest works too, if all attempts to resuscitate the victim, have failed.

Also

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Cardiac arrest doesn't work through. Just ask any of the growing number of people who have revived after upwards of four or five minutes of no heart beat. Resuscitation efforts are getting better and better each year. Several of those people over three minutes have even gone on to live normal healthy lives, not something possible in years past where more then a couple of minutes without blood flow meant severe brain damage even if they could eventually be revived.

I have even seen unconfirmed stories about 10-15 minutes, among the news stories of nearly as long.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

...Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...

That's where the title came from

 

[Fire Daemon]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

...Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...

That's where the title came from

Apparently the 'like tears in the rain' line was made up on the spot, such a great speech. Hmm... now I want to go see Blade Runner again.

 

[JourneyThroughHell]

When your brain stops functioning and you can't survive anymore.
I believe it's simple as that.

 

[Dr. UBAR]

Well I'm going to be a bit of a spoil sport and relate it to SCIENCE. Not science but SCIENCE. Anyway since a particle's motion and reactivity can be determined to a reasonable degree then there is no true point where we even become alive. We are just a very large and very long going, self replicating chemical reaction. Not sure if this is depressing or awesome.

 

[TimeLord]

I don't die, I regenerate....

Seriously though, I am not a religious person but I believe there is something after death so we can never truly die

 

[Queen Michael]

It's when you see a pair of pearly gates and Saint Peter says hello.

 

[HuntrRose]

It's when you see a pair of pearly gates and Saint Peter says hello.

A tip: If you see Saint Peter, kick him in the shin and run the other way!

Seriously though, when you die is a tricky one. The classic is when you are without heartbeat, but then again alot of people have recovered from that, either through CPR or the famous paddles of shockiness.

Personally, I say it is when you can't survive without machines on a permanent basis.

Don't quote me on this though, go ask a doctor or so instead. They are the experts.

 

[TMAN10112]

It's impossible to pin-point what death exactly is, since it's becoming less and lees permanent with new medical techniques (ex: People being rivied sever minutes after no heartbeat).

I remember reading an artical from a few months ago, in which several dogs had all of their blood removed, and replaced with a sugar-enriched solution (obviously killing them). After being dead (by all current definitions) for several hours, their blood was replaced and all were successfully revived with the majority suffering little to no brain damage.