RPG Combat Systems Discussion

[Ninjat_126]

I'm going to be seriously opening myself up for flaming here, but I'd just like to get some other opinions on the subject.

STATS AND LEVEL GRINDING
[spoiler: Stats and Level Grinding]
I don't get the obsession with stat building and level grinding in RPGs, particularly in MMORPGs. Upgrading your attacks makes sense to me. Altering your gear layout to suit your playstyle makes sense to me. What I don't understand is why there are so many different stats to level up.

In Fallout 3, you can upgrade your Lockpicking skill to unlock doors and containers. However, you'll need to upgrade your Science skill to use computers to access information and open doors. To avoid being seen while doing this, you'll need to use the Sneak skill.

If you get into a fight, you'll need to have your weapon skills at high levels. These include Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Melee, Explosives and Unarmed. To use a pistol effectively, you'll need Small Guns skills. To use a laser pistol effectively, you'll need Energy Weapons skills.

From what I've heard, the original Fallout games had even more, such as separate skills for gambling and stealing. But to me all that means is more time level grinding. I hate spending hours leveling up my skills in sneaking around to complete a mission/quest stealthily, only to find that I should have been putting points into lockpicking and computer hacking.
[/spoiler]

COMBAT SYSTEMS
[spoiler: Combat Systems]
Another thing that just bugs me about RPGs is that in many of them combat is based around numbers. In particular, the idea that no matter your skill level in other games or your elaborate strategies, the outcome of the battle will come down to whoever's invested the most playtime and has the highest numbers.

In a game like (gasp!) Call Of Duty, player skill is more important than player level. A seasoned pro with a crappy pistol can defeat a n00b with the best gun in the game 9 times out of 10 if they use their skills and tactics to their advantage. Whereas in a game like WOW, a low level player just can't injure a high level player since their damage output is so low, and any cunning plans just fall apart. [/spoiler]

Basically, in many RPGs grind is king, and time spent playing will trump all else. And yet there are still players out there who look down upon us who play action games and FPSs, saying that we're just not sophisticated and intelligent enough to play real games like RPGs.

I guess this is just a rant, but does anyone else have an opinion on this matter?

 

[Saelune]

You would hate Dungeons and Dragons.
The numbers are representive of chance. Stabbing a guy in the heart would be that lucky crit compaired to stabbing a guy in the ass. Since games dont actually take anantomy into effect directly, this is how it is resolved. As for stats, I liked The Elder Scroll style. You want to sneak better? Practice sneaking. That way if you arent sneaky enough to do whatever, try sneaking up on easier stuff. Still can have grinding, but its more logical. (Practice makes perfect) Makes more sense than slaying a dragon and now knowing how to be quiet...

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Different genres require different skill sets to succeed. RPGs require planning/managing various things such as stats and equipment and the ability to make smart decisions in combat. It is no better or worse than any other genre. I find your post to be hypocritical. You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

 

[Battleaxx90]

This is why I like Kingdom Hearts. Sure, you COULD grind your way all the way up to level 100, get all the best accessories and keyblades and equip every ability worth a damn, but it doesn't mean anything if you don't know how to USE that power. You could have the best build in the game and get curbstomped by a pack of Shadows if you haven't the foggiest idea of what you're doing.

 

[madwarper]

I'm going to be seriously opening myself up for flaming here, but I'd just like to get some other opinions on the subject.

STATS AND LEVEL GRINDING
[spoiler: Stats and Level Grinding]
I don't get the obsession with stat building and level grinding in RPGs, particularly in MMORPGs. Upgrading your attacks makes sense to me. Altering your gear layout to suit your playstyle makes sense to me. What I don't understand is why there are so many different stats to level up.

In Fallout 3, you can upgrade your Lockpicking skill to unlock doors and containers. However, you'll need to upgrade your Science skill to use computers to access information and open doors. To avoid being seen while doing this, you'll need to use the Sneak skill.

If you get into a fight, you'll need to have your weapon skills at high levels. These include Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons, Melee, Explosives and Unarmed. To use a pistol effectively, you'll need Small Guns skills. To use a laser pistol effectively, you'll need Energy Weapons skills.

From what I've heard, the original Fallout games had even more, such as separate skills for gambling and stealing. But to me all that means is more time level grinding. I hate spending hours leveling up my skills in sneaking around to complete a mission/quest stealthily, only to find that I should have been putting points into lockpicking and computer hacking.
[/spoiler]

Have you tried DDO?
In it, while you're get some XP for killing bosses, rare spawns and optional objectives, the main portion of EXP come from the completing of quests (ie. an instance).

Yes, it's still grinding, but instead of bopping the same monster on the head 500 times, you're using your skills to get through each instance.

Or, you could try TES, which gains experience from leveling skills, which are earned by preforming said skill.

COMBAT SYSTEMS
[spoiler: Combat Systems]
Another thing that just bugs me about RPGs is that in many of them combat is based around numbers. In particular, the idea that no matter your skill level in other games or your elaborate strategies, the outcome of the battle will come down to whoever's invested the most playtime and has the highest numbers.

In a game like (gasp!) Call Of Duty, player skill is more important than player level. A seasoned pro with a crappy pistol can defeat a n00b with the best gun in the game 9 times out of 10 if they use their skills and tactics to their advantage. Whereas in a game like WOW, a low level player just can't injure a high level player since their damage output is so low, and any cunning plans just fall apart. [/spoiler]

Well, if you want to have strategy be the key, play a strategy game.
Sorry, but RPG's are all about the numbers, as Yahtzee said in the Cataclysm review.

 

[hawkeye52]

You pretty much labeled out the difference between an RPG and FPS there. RPG's are long haul games that require copious amounts of time for make something go ding next level. In a SP RPG this ain't a problem because the only thing you will be comparing it to is yourself and depending on the environments (whether they scale to you or not). In an MMORPG you are leveling yourself against 1,000,000's of other people and so ofc there has to be some level scaling requirement otherwise it wouldn't be an RPG. Can you imagine a game like WOW where you have to start from lvl 1 every play session.

FPS's are generally short haul games where everyone starts on equal footing or there abouts and so there can't be any overleveling other players like in RPG's. Plus FPS's tend to have a more instant gratification system. Its just more satisfying in other words to shoot someone and kill them online then it is to kill 10 boars.

Now both short haul and long haul games appeal to different crowds and so the games evolve on this basis. The only FPS to my knowledge that has a strong MMORPG element is global agenda and that was boring as hell.

 

[Ninjat_126]

You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

Yep.

In particular, I was speaking about things more like D&D, where combat is controlled by dice rolls and gear is accumulated by random drops. The sort of game where tactics are almost meaningless as long as you've been playing for a while and the random-number-generator is kind.

 

[thenamelessloser]

You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

Yep.

In particular, I was speaking about things more like D&D, where combat is controlled by dice rolls and gear is accumulated by random drops. The sort of game where tactics are almost meaningless as long as you've been playing for a while and the random-number-generator is kind.

No. Play Baldur's Gate 2 or some other older D and D games. You can't really grind in them at all. They are annoying for a different reasons though to me but complaining about lack of tactics or too much grinding for a D and D game doesn't really make much sense. You're confusing D and D with JRPGs.

Have you ever played any older single player D and D RPG such as Baldur's Gate 2? It seems your arguments are mostly about MMORPGs which are mostly NOT D and D. I think you can only get to level 8 in teh first Baldur's Gate lol.

Also, Fallout 1 and 2 had no grinding really. You just went on and did the various quests in areas and level up. Actually, Fallout one had a fairly low level you can actually reach I think. Part of the strategy in a good RPG is not how much you level up but HOW you level up.

edit- But I guess you don't like deciding on how to level up either. Just think of it as a different kind of challenge for long term. In many games though this can be nullified with grinding to the point where you're strong enough it doesn't matter how you leveled up though. In a sense, many RPGS are as hard or easy as you like it to be depending on the time you spend making your character stronger. But at times such as in the Baldur's Gate games no matter how much you level up you still need to level up in certain ways and think what you will do before and after combat.

 

[bakan]

In a RPG you shouldn't be the allround super badass who can do everything by just pressing X and go through cutscene after cutscene.

You have to make up your mind what you want to be, there are RPGs where you can achieve everything through levelgrind, though there are more with rescrictions and you have to choose what your character should be able to do in the end.
Btw the Fallout example for this was just bad, as you are pretty limited in what you are able to learn in the 30 levels or so and you have to plan what you want to be able to do with your current character.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

Yep.

In particular, I was speaking about things more like D&D, where combat is controlled by dice rolls and gear is accumulated by random drops. The sort of game where tactics are almost meaningless as long as you've been playing for a while and the random-number-generator is kind.

Drops in D&D aren't always random. The DM could throw in something themselves or the campaign has set loot for some encounters. And just because the RNG God rules over combat doesn't mean that it isn't tactical. A rogue who wisely uses flanking and concealment opportunities will find far greater success in combat than a rogue who just rushes in and attacks. Also, wisely managing buffs and nerfs can tilt the odds in your favor.

 

[The Madman]

The purpose of the rpg stats are to simulate growth and to give a sense of advancement, it really is that simple. It's essentially a more visually oriented way of rewarding a player for their time and of altering the gameplay to suit that growing level of player confidence and indeed skill. It's also a way of allowing for more diverse player character possibilities while also balancing the game around those more open abilities.

And while it's easy to dismiss rpg as not being based on skill, that's just stupid. I doubt anyone would argue Call of Duty requires more thought and effort than, say, X-Com which has heavy rpg elements. Meanwhile other games like Mount & Blade are highly based on reaction time and speed, but also allow for the advancement of stats to ensure a more rewarding and forward moving gameplay experience.

Basically I think you're generalizing just a weeeeeeeeeee bit. While certainly there are games that emply rpg mechanics to brain-numbingly boring effect, to say all do is like saying all fps are like Call of Duty.

 

[IBlackKiteI]

That's just the way it is man.

Whilst I find WoW and Fallout 3 a lot of fun (don't eat me) I've generally accepted that pretty much all RPG's have shitty combat which is usually some sort of annoying ass time killer to fill in the spaces between levels.

I wish that some of the greatest aspects of RPG's such as open worlds and many options for NPC interaction were extracted and used more often in other genres, so we get a possibly great game without lots and lots of numbers, grinding and general suckery getting in the way.
Problem is that every dev seems to think that all RPG's must require shitloads of running back and forth doing the same shit over and over again to actually get anywhere in the game, and that an RPG isn't an RPG if it isn't entirely based upon the mechanics used over and over and over again.

So in other words I think the best RPG elements would actually do much better if they were successfully integrated into other, completely different kinds of games more often.
-

Also, just what is an RPG anyway? Obviously pretty much any game which features open spaces and levelling up is considered one, but I only ever feel like I am playing some kinda role in more linear story driven games, like Half Life 2 and Dead Space for instance.

 

[Ninjat_126]

You pretty much labeled out the difference between an RPG and FPS there. RPG's are long haul games that require copious amounts of time for make something go ding next level. In a SP RPG this ain't a problem because the only thing you will be comparing it to is yourself and depending on the environments (whether they scale to you or not). In an MMORPG you are leveling yourself against 1,000,000's of other people and so ofc there has to be some level scaling requirement otherwise it wouldn't be an RPG. Can you imagine a game like WOW where you have to start from lvl 1 every play session.

FPS's are generally short haul games where everyone starts on equal footing or there abouts and so there can't be any overleveling other players like in RPG's. Plus FPS's tend to have a more instant gratification system. Its just more satisfying in other words to shoot someone and kill them online then it is to kill 10 boars.

Now both short haul and long haul games appeal to different crowds and so the games evolve on this basis. The only FPS to my knowledge that has a strong MMORPG element is global agenda and that was boring as hell.

True. I just get bored quickly with killing the same monsters thousands of times, waiting to unlock the "fun" part of the game.

You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

Yep.

In particular, I was speaking about things more like D&D, where combat is controlled by dice rolls and gear is accumulated by random drops. The sort of game where tactics are almost meaningless as long as you've been playing for a while and the random-number-generator is kind.

No. Play Baldur's Gate 2 or some other older D and D games. You can't really grind in them at all. They are annoying for a different reasons though to me but complaining about lack of tactics or too much grinding for a D and D game doesn't really make much sense. You're confusing D and D with JRPGs.

Not being much of an RPG player myself, I'm a bit underinformed. Thanks for explaining.

 

[bakan]

True. I just get bored quickly with killing the same monsters thousands of times, waiting to unlock the "fun" part of the game.

And you are totally fine with killing clone warrior after clone warrior in your run-of-the-mill FPS?

 

[thenamelessloser]

You pretty much labeled out the difference between an RPG and FPS there. RPG's are long haul games that require copious amounts of time for make something go ding next level. In a SP RPG this ain't a problem because the only thing you will be comparing it to is yourself and depending on the environments (whether they scale to you or not). In an MMORPG you are leveling yourself against 1,000,000's of other people and so ofc there has to be some level scaling requirement otherwise it wouldn't be an RPG. Can you imagine a game like WOW where you have to start from lvl 1 every play session.

FPS's are generally short haul games where everyone starts on equal footing or there abouts and so there can't be any overleveling other players like in RPG's. Plus FPS's tend to have a more instant gratification system. Its just more satisfying in other words to shoot someone and kill them online then it is to kill 10 boars.

Now both short haul and long haul games appeal to different crowds and so the games evolve on this basis. The only FPS to my knowledge that has a strong MMORPG element is global agenda and that was boring as hell.

True. I just get bored quickly with killing the same monsters thousands of times, waiting to unlock the "fun" part of the game.

You complain that RPG players belittle other genres while you proceed to do just that to the RPG genre.

Yep.

In particular, I was speaking about things more like D&D, where combat is controlled by dice rolls and gear is accumulated by random drops. The sort of game where tactics are almost meaningless as long as you've been playing for a while and the random-number-generator is kind.

No. Play Baldur's Gate 2 or some other older D and D games. You can't really grind in them at all. They are annoying for a different reasons though to me but complaining about lack of tactics or too much grinding for a D and D game doesn't really make much sense. You're confusing D and D with JRPGs.

Not being much of an RPG player myself, I'm a bit underinformed. Thanks for explaining.

No problem, I think what you said does relate to much of the MMORPGs and JRPGs that were made though. But don't think relates much to Single Player western RPGs or at least the ones made in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Fallout 3 is a bit easier than many WRPGS and open world games like it have a tendency to let you level up doing tons of side quests. Even if you level up as much as you can in something like Baldur's Gate though, I think you still have to use your brain when actually fighting. RPGs like other genres have been dumbed down quite a bit for better or worse. I have poor reflexes so I prefer a bit of micromanaging skills items and stats to an extent compared to having to dodge and block with perfect timing.

 

[ColeusRattus]

I too think that the problem at hand is not the "grinding" and "stat"-domination of RPGs, but rather that the OP simply doesn't like them. Not that that's bad, everyone entitled to an opinion.

But to share some insight, I'll explain a little:

In Role Playing Games, you take up a role that you are not in real life. Of course you can argue that that's true in all games, but I'll elaborate.

Unlike other games, you can be someone with totally different traits than in real life. By setting the stats right, you can be mean and lean killing machine, or a nerdy wuss, or a suave womanizer. The stat and number basedness of these things make it possible.
To compare it to FPS games: you either have good reactrion and hand eye coordination, or you haven't, and practice only takes you to a certain extent.

On the other hand, it also prevent's cheating outside of it: You've chosen to play a dumb brute, so you can put more skillpoints into battle realted skills. Now you stand before an intelectual obstacle: if that obstacle would be solveable by your personal skills, as opposed to your character's, you'd screw up the game balancing.

Of course, that only applies to single player RPGs, MMO's don't apply really.

 

[Comieman]

Yep, these are differences between FPS and RPG, like everybody else stated.
Also, a noob tuber in CoD could easily kill a pro.

 

[Ninjat_126]

And you are totally fine with killing clone warrior after clone warrior in your 08/15 FPS?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent

a) I'm not. I like it when games have enemy variety, such as Half-Life, Doom and parts of the Resistance series.

b) Grinding in an RPG is basically repeating the same battle until your XP meter fills up. Each kill, you see the bar go up just a little bit more and you know that you're not going to be doing anything interesting or new until that bar's full. Same sort of thing as the "Collect 20 goblin hearts" quests.

Honestly, I actually had to think for a bit about that for a bit. Also, 08/15?

 

[bakan]

And you are totally fine with killing clone warrior after clone warrior in your run-of-the-mill FPS?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotSoDifferent

a) I'm not. I like it when games have enemy variety, such as Half-Life, Doom and parts of the Resistance series.

b) Grinding in an RPG is basically repeating the same battle until your XP meter fills up. Each kill, you see the bar go up just a little bit more and you know that you're not going to be doing anything interesting or new until that bar's full. Same sort of thing as the "Collect 20 goblin hearts" quests.

I got the impression you are just very uncomfortable with grinding and as others stated you are mostly referring to MMORPGs and some JRPGs, so just some special cases.
But if you are even uncomfortable with planning and managing your character development you should stay away from RPGs and not make threads about how bad they are.
Though if you are interested in the matter try to read up on it or watch some gameplay clips/reviews - RPGs offer a bigger variety than your average FPS and aren't just about grinding.

 

[Mister Shield]

You want an RPG that is not based on the numbers?

Try Demon's Souls.

You could grind or whatever in that game- And it would still own you. Now that is a game that dodging and skilled counter attacks mean more than higher damage, health, or gear.