RPG protagonists and Mass Effect. And other things.

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StarkRavingSane

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Mar 4, 2008
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I like to play RPGs. I don't play them hard-core, I don't micromanage, I rarely experiment with more than 2 builds in a single game, I don't get too deep beneath the surface, I don't play'em in multiplayer, I just like to enjoy them for what they are. As far as gaming's concerned I'm simple.

When I start to play an RPG one of the first things I do is get the hang of the main character. Sometimes there is not much to get the hang of, RPG protagonists are usually not too strongly defined and leave some space for you to fill with, well, yourself. Be it a distant echo of the AFGNCAAP, the laziness of the designers or common sense: it works. At one point, very early in the game, something clicks and you inject a considerable dosage of you into the brain of the hero through a very thick needle. To a greater or lesser extent, consciously or not, you roleplay.

Sometimes, however, the protagonists are well-defined, especially in newer RPGs. They usually get full voice acting (which is psychologically significant; with a voice comes personality, or at least a hint thereof). Take The Witcher for example (note: played the original version where the dialogues were not butchered) there's not too much room for the player to project him or herself into the character and, in most cases, Geralt (the protagonist) is being himself more than anyone else. The thing is the man's a bastard, you can only decide how much of a bastard you want him to be which is OK because in fiction a well made bastard is worth at least a dozen fair haired do-gooders. In my case something clicked and I found the experience enjoyable.

Now take a slightly older game: Gothic. The protagonist is boring, no catchy lines, no decent voice acting, nothing that would make him distinguishable. And it's a simple solution and it works: his personality is so minute it doesn't really get in the way at all. You get immersed. Something clicks.

I played a few RPGs in my time, starting with the old BGs and Torment and experimenting with the Ultimas and I never really paid any attention to this, let's call it, "protagonal immersion". I took it for granted.

Now, Mass Effect.

I like the game. I like the mechanics, the plot is quite intriguing, the characters may not be the superbly crafted but there are signs of brilliance. But nothing clicks, I just hate Shepard. The man has nothing. Nothing. He's dull, stupid, primitive, with no personality, only that same old boring expression (you can model his face and that's the face you'll see through the game, precisely that never-changing expression you make at the beginning, while the faces of other characters express emotions). Even if you try to make him act like a bastard he doesn't even do that right. He just goes on being the prototypical jarhead that you don't get in any decent work of fiction or, I suspect, real life.

The problem is, at least for me, that this primitive dullness is too visible, as if the writers thought it to be a decent character trait. It takes up too much space and there's no room for anything else. It feels as if the guy from Gothic suddenly thought he has the right to be a character all by himself. And it bothers me a lot.

Well, if you've read the product of my sad graphomania to this point you probably have an opinion of your own, I'd like to read it. Did you feel the same way? Am I missing something important? Or maybe the game's reputation boosted my expectations too much?
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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StarkRavingSane said:
I like to play RPGs. I don't play them hard-core, I don't micromanage, I rarely experiment with more than 2 builds in a single game, I don't get too deep beneath the surface, I don't play'em in multiplayer, I just like to enjoy them for what they are. As far as gaming's concerned I'm simple.

When I start to play an RPG one of the first things I do is get the hang of the main character. Sometimes there is not much to get the hang of, RPG protagonists are usually not too strongly defined and leave some space for you to fill with, well, yourself. Be it a distant echo of the AFGNCAAP, the laziness of the designers or common sense: it works. At one point, very early in the game, something clicks and you inject a considerable dosage of you into the brain of the hero through a very thick needle. To a greater or lesser extent, consciously or not, you roleplay.

Sometimes, however, the protagonists are well-defined, especially in newer RPGs. They usually get full voice acting (which is psychologically significant; with a voice comes personality, or at least a hint thereof). Take The Witcher for example (note: played the original version where the dialogues were not butchered) there's not too much room for the player to project him or herself into the character and, in most cases, Geralt (the protagonist) is being himself more than anyone else. The thing is the man's a bastard, you can only decide how much of a bastard you want him to be which is OK because in fiction a well made bastard is worth at least a dozen fair haired do-gooders. In my case something clicked and I found the experience enjoyable.

Now take a slightly older game: Gothic. The protagonist is boring, no catchy lines, no decent voice acting, nothing that would make him distinguishable. And it's a simple solution and it works: his personality is so minute it doesn't really get in the way at all. You get immersed. Something clicks.

I played a few RPGs in my time, starting with the old BGs and Torment and experimenting with the Ultimas and I never really paid any attention to this, let's call it, "protagonal immersion". I took it for granted.

Now, Mass Effect.

I like the game. I like the mechanics, the plot is quite intriguing, the characters may not be the superbly crafted but there are signs of brilliance. But nothing clicks, I just hate Shepard. The man has nothing. Nothing. He's dull, stupid, primitive, with no personality, only that same old boring expression (you can model his face and that's the face you'll see through the game, precisely that never-changing expression you make at the beginning, while the faces of other characters express emotions). Even if you try to make him act like a bastard he doesn't even do that right. He just goes on being the prototypical jarhead that you don't get in any decent work of fiction or, I suspect, real life.

The problem is, at least for me, that this primitive dullness is too visible, as if the writers thought it to be a decent character trait. It takes up too much space and there's no room for anything else. It feels as if the guy from Gothic suddenly thought he has the right to be a character all by himself. And it bothers me a lot.

Well, if you've read the product of my sad graphomania to this point you probably have an opinion of your own, I'd like to read it. Did you feel the same way? Am I missing something important? Or maybe the game's reputation boosted my expectations too much?
Ahh...that was your mistake! Femme Shephard was the way to go, Jennifer Hale really brings femme Shephard alive. Well, to my mind anyway. -Yes- I intially selected a female char because of...things in the game, but, her part is very well acted.
 
Mar 29, 2008
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you kinda said it yourself, voice acting has become very significant and a crap job results in a crap character. I didn't play ME but this is something we see in a lot of games, though that "snarky bastard" as a protagonist is getting just as old as the "two-dimensional do-gooder." Who wants to come up with the next soon to be overused protagonist template though?
 

HSIAMetalKing

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GothmogII said:
Ahh...that was your mistake! Femme Shephard was the way to go, Jennifer Hale really brings femme Shephard alive. Well, to my mind anyway. -Yes- I intially selected a female char because of...things in the game, but, her part is very well acted.
Exactly what I was going to say! Slap some boobies on your next Shepard-- somehow they really do wonders for enhancing the protagonist's personality.
 

Dectilon

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HSIAMetalKing said:
GothmogII said:
Ahh...that was your mistake! Femme Shephard was the way to go, Jennifer Hale really brings femme Shephard alive. Well, to my mind anyway. -Yes- I intially selected a female char because of...things in the game, but, her part is very well acted.
Exactly what I was going to say! Slap some boobies on your next Shepard-- somehow they really do wonders for enhancing the protagonist's personality.
She's better, but there's still a ceiling on how much emotion she feels like putting out. She never goes above "mild annoyance" or "slight appreciation" really : P The male Shepard never leaves "balloon filled with sand"-mode though, so at least it's an easy choice : P

I recently watched the Diablo II cinematics again and it struck me now as it has numerous times: obviously there are good voice actors out there willing to give even games their best stuff. Does blizzard trap them in a hold somewhere so no other company can use them? Why does the voice acting in almost every single game ever suck so badly? ~~
 

bermyduck

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Feb 20, 2008
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Being someone whose now on their third play through of MassEffect I can say that it pretty much depends on your choices as to how boring or exciting your character is. I admit I add to my character a little bit. My first play through I tried to play this red-headed gangsta rapper style male Shepard. That was ok, i think the story made up for the lack of personality. The next time I played through, I played with a female Shepard, which was equally enjoyable for different reasons. Well, I knew the story already, so it must have been the depth of her personality or it might have just been her boobs. I dunno. Anyway, now on my third playthrough, and since I play it in my dorm room with my buddies around we have endless laughter as I play through trying to be a Conquistador. I have realized the lack of personality in male Shepard, so now i've taken to talking over the game whenever I speak, rephrasing the line to say it as a Conquistador Shepard would in a very cheesy Spanish accent. So it took me a while to get to the realization you made, but it hasn't made it any less fun.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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Definitely Shepard is the least developed character - but that's the main thing about Western RPGs, as opposed to Japanese RPGs. In Japanese RPGs, it's all about the story line and how the main character is a fleshed out hero, and you just take over the combat. It's really just an interactive plot. There's nothing wrong with that, I like JRPGs just as much as WRPGs. You usually play as the party, and just help them along the quest.

However, with Western RPGs, they are designed to make YOU feel like the main character. Shepard can't be developed well, because YOU are supposed to be him. If they really fleshed him out, it would feel more like playing "as" Shepard instead of "being" Shepard.
 

Prozoquel

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May 14, 2008
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With the whole 'create your dude' approach that Bioware has used for a good while, I find that the addition of your character actually having a voice in Mass Effect kind of killed the effect. In KOTOR your character was just straight up silent, allowing you to pretty much define what the character sounded and acted like yourself. There were some really outlandish and hilarious dialogue options in KOTOR, and in Jade Empire as well (underrated game) but now in Mass Effect all the dialogue has been watered down and Shepard is about as interesting as an old potato.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Korolev said:
Definitely Shepard is the least developed character - but that's the main thing about Western RPGs, as opposed to Japanese RPGs. In Japanese RPGs, it's all about the story line and how the main character is a fleshed out hero, and you just take over the combat. It's really just an interactive plot. There's nothing wrong with that, I like JRPGs just as much as WRPGs. You usually play as the party, and just help them along the quest.

However, with Western RPGs, they are designed to make YOU feel like the main character. Shepard can't be developed well, because YOU are supposed to be him. If they really fleshed him out, it would feel more like playing "as" Shepard instead of "being" Shepard.
Most JRPGs characters are "fleshed out" in the melodrama way. Basically it's just overacting. This may be more interesting than Mass Effect's under-acted protagonist, but it's really the same shallow thing. (Also note that KOTOR, true to Star Wars' style, is pretty over-acted.)

Bioware's actually moving away from "being" the character, I would say. They do a lot of framing shots and third-person face cam (compare that to, say, dialogue in Bloodlines). Mass Effect also, notably, has you choosing vague moods rather than specific lines. You've deciding what general kind of dialogue you want to see and the writers are filling in the details. It's like letting you have some directorial input over their fancy movie rather than being an actor in it.

-- Alex
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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The face-making in Mass Effect is at odds with the voice-acting. It would've been better if they had taken an approach like Jade Empire, which just had some cool-looking pre-made characters you could customize just a little bit. Giving the protagonist a voice wouldn't be that bad if you had half a dozen very distinct styles to choose from (hopefully they'd vary the lines as well as the accent). This would require a much bigger voice-acting budget, of course.

So far, I've made Mass Effect work for me by deliberately trying to match the face to the voice. Still, that does effectively mean that the game only supports two characters (emotionless potato-man and calm steely vaguely-sarcastic woman).

-- Alex
 

BallPtPenTheif

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Alex_P said:
Bioware's actually moving away from "being" the character, I would say. They do a lot of framing shots and third-person face cam (compare that to, say, dialogue in Bloodlines). Mass Effect also, notably, has you choosing vague moods rather than specific lines.
if people have bad taste and make awful user created characters, i wonder how much of that effects their overall impression of the game?
 

shatnershaman

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BallPtPenTheif said:
Alex_P said:
Bioware's actually moving away from "being" the character, I would say. They do a lot of framing shots and third-person face cam (compare that to, say, dialogue in Bloodlines). Mass Effect also, notably, has you choosing vague moods rather than specific lines.
if people have bad taste and make awful user created characters, i wonder how much of that effects their overall impression of the game?
Thats why I chose default. To the KOTOR thing at least the people in Mass Effect move when they talk not slightly move their hand sometimes.
 

BallPtPenTheif

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shatnershaman said:
BallPtPenTheif said:
Alex_P said:
Bioware's actually moving away from "being" the character, I would say. They do a lot of framing shots and third-person face cam (compare that to, say, dialogue in Bloodlines). Mass Effect also, notably, has you choosing vague moods rather than specific lines.
if people have bad taste and make awful user created characters, i wonder how much of that effects their overall impression of the game?
Thats why I chose default. To the KOTOR thing at least the people in Mass Effect move when they talk not slightly move their hand sometimes.
good call. i loved how Final Fantasy Online restricted the color pallette to neutral tones and grays and blacks. this ensured that none of the kooks would prance around in mismatched clothes and blow their whole design aesthetic for other users.

it was like them telling the player community, "We don't trust you guys with colors."
 

Finnish(ed)

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Mar 16, 2008
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Excellent topic.

I've always thought that a role-playing game should have some actual role-playing in it. If there is no room for choice, there can be no role-playing. On the other hand, because there will always be a very limited amount of choices, dialog options, character appearances and so on, a player will always feel restricted.

Role-playing means that you choose, create, or are given a character with defining attributes and a background. It is up to you to decide what kind of a personality should go with the attributes and background and act according that personality. If the character is voice-acted and animated with facial expressions and so on, it is not actually role-playing, because the personality is already set. I don't mean that makes a bad game, it just isn't a role-playing game. In my very limited experience, JRPGs are even less like role-playing games, because they leave no room for the actual role-playing at all. Again, this doesn't mean they're bad games, just not RPGs.

I think a good RPG should leave a lot of room for the player's choices and imagination.
 

friedmetroid

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I loved Mass Effect, just like I loved kotor. But there's one thing that really irritates me about it, and that's the conversation wheel. Shepard NEVER actually says exactly what you selected. Sometimes his interpretation of the choice you made was so far off it was ridiculous. Eventually I just ignored whatever the voice actor spat out and pretended that what I picked was actually what he said.
 

shatnershaman

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friedmetroid said:
I loved Mass Effect, just like I loved kotor. But there's one thing that really irritates me about it, and that's the conversation wheel. Shepard NEVER actually says exactly what you selected. Sometimes his interpretation of the choice you made was so far off it was ridiculous. Eventually I just ignored whatever the voice actor spat out and pretended that what I picked was actually what he said.
You want him to say *pull gun*?
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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friedmetroid said:
I loved Mass Effect, just like I loved kotor. But there's one thing that really irritates me about it, and that's the conversation wheel. Shepard NEVER actually says exactly what you selected. Sometimes his interpretation of the choice you made was so far off it was ridiculous. Eventually I just ignored whatever the voice actor spat out and pretended that what I picked was actually what he said.
The first time they really drop it on you is with that crazy guy in the intro area. "I'll shut him up!" becomes "PUNCH IN THE FACE NINE RENEGADE POINTS!" I think at that point you either semi-grudgingly accept the game's "click-this-and-find-out-what-surprising-thing-the-character-will-do" logic or you kinda start to hate it. It's definitely a potential deal-breaker.

-- Alex
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Finnish(ed) said:
I think a good RPG should leave a lot of room for the player's choices and imagination.
Well, ME definitely does leave room for player choices. Your choices are just less direct than you might be used to from games like KOTOR and Torment.

I think what's messing it up for a lot of people is that your choices are, effectively, less *informed*. You still have a lot of input, but it's harder to feel in control when you're pressing buttons without knowing what the consequences will be.

Of course, that was the case before with trying to figure out the other characters' reactions, too. Most RPG players are used to thinking of themselves as interacting with an unpredictable world while directly in control of "my character," though, so they can accept a lack of direct control over the environment far more readily than they can accept a lack of direct control over the PC himself.

-- Alex