RPG purists.

[Zukhramm]

Well people have been complaining a lot about Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2(even though it isn't out yet). Mainly because they are not "proper RPGs".

Perhaps becuase they... like RPGs?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You find it really annoying when people complain that something has been simplified to the point where they no longer find it interesting? I suppose that could be annoying but I don't really see any need for discussion about what opinions people should or should not be allowed to have in public. Arguing what an RPG is or isn't can be a pointless task but people have different values in what is a good game to them. If people want the combat in Mass Effect 3 to just be something visually impressive that they can blast through in moments without any challenge at all then I suppose they have the right to voice that opinion as do people with the opposite view.

 

[Frotality]

there is a HUGE line between hardcore rpg (like balders gate) and a shooter. the original ME leaned to the shooter side considering how many games have RPG aspects these days, but it was great because it retained the same hardcore RPG concepts while being very accessible. ive no problem with simplifying to a reasonable degree, but bioware is simplifying to plain insulting levels, considering they themselves have made some of the best RPGs out there. ME2 had about 1/30 the replay value of the original, for many reasons including the sever reduction of player evolution and character personalization. dragon age was far from the spiritual successor to baldur's gate that they heralded it as, but again, it kept the same concept of the game and was great; you had to actually plan your fights and use your team accordingly, just attacking everything was suicide, and thats the spirit of an RPG; tactics over twitchy fingers. considering how that spirit is absent from ME2 and how no information for dragon age 2 gives me any hope that bioware will actually improve upon the gameplay like sequels are supposed to and instead just cut more stuff and call it streamlined again....well, thats the reason im playing baldurs gate again.

bioware HAS streamlined rpgs properly, and thats the real killer. people like you OP, and bioware now it seems, seem very devoted to the golden mean fallacy; simply shoving peripherally 'classic' rpg mechanics loosely and ineffectually to a shooter does not create the perfect middle-ground. ME and dragon age are already incredibly simplified by RPG standards, but they are still great even to a baldurs gate nerd like me. bioware seems to be taking sequels as an excuse to try and slowly convert to a more call of duty and halo fanbase instead of actually improving their games, and thats why im angry. ME2 hardly constitutes a spin-off, both in terms of gameplay and story, and ive little reason to believe dragon age 2 will be any different, as it seems to follow to the exact same sequel strategy. granted, not alot of info on it yet, but bioware has lost the "its by company x, so ill give it a chance" status.

 

[D_987]

Well people have been complaining a lot about Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2(even though it isn't out yet).

Well the dumbing down of RPG elements are a part of the issue, but the major point is that Mass Effect 2, as far as RPG's go, is just a bad game...part of the reasoning behind that is the lack of depth

Lack of depth? Seriously? How much more depth do you want?

You think Mass Effect 2 had depth?

Its "decisions" were black or white with only a couple containing shades of grey.
Its characters lacked depth and were bland copies of previous Bioware games.
The combat was dumbed down, lacking the tactical approach from the previous game.
The skill system removed a number of options that gave the illusion of choice, thus dumbing down the game.
The Paragon, Renegade system was dumbed down, only allowing the player to select specific options depending on previous "role-playing" aspects, instead of giving them full choice.

Need I go on?

 

[Nimcha]

Well people have been complaining a lot about Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2(even though it isn't out yet).

Well the dumbing down of RPG elements are a part of the issue, but the major point is that Mass Effect 2, as far as RPG's go, is just a bad game...part of the reasoning behind that is the lack of depth

Lack of depth? Seriously? How much more depth do you want?

You think Mass Effect 2 had depth?

Its "decisions" were black or white with only a couple containing shades of grey.
Its characters lacked depth and were bland copies of previous Bioware games.
The combat was dumbed down, lacking the tactical approach from the previous game.
The skill system removed a number of options that gave the illusion of choice, thus dumbing down the game.
The Paragon, Renegade system was dumbed down, only allowing the player to select specific options depending on previous "role-playing" aspects, instead of giving them full choice.

Need I go on?

Please do, nothing you said so far would warrant calling the game 'bad'. And the characters were not bland, at all. Did you even play the loyalty missions?

 

[DVS Storm]

bioware HAS streamlined rpgs properly, and thats the real killer. people like you OP, and bioware now it seems, seem very devoted to the golden mean fallacy; simply shoving peripherally 'classic' rpg mechanics loosely and ineffectually to a shooter does not create the perfect middle-ground. ME and dragon age are already incredibly simplified by RPG standards, but they are still great even to a baldurs gate nerd like me. bioware seems to be taking sequels as an excuse to try and slowly convert to a more call of duty and halo fanbase instead of actually improving their games, and thats why im angry. ME2 hardly constitutes a spin-off, both in terms of gameplay and story, and ive little reason to believe dragon age 2 will be any different, as it seems to follow to the exact same sequel strategy. granted, not alot of info on it yet, but bioware has lost the "its by company x, so ill give it a chance" status.

I know what you mean . I too hope that they don't bring their games to a shooter state. Bioware games are great to this point but I'm worried that they will take that direction. Some people like older, some like new(personally I like both) but my point is that simplification is not a good argument if you don't like the game. And well ME2's plot was overly simple. But it was because their main writer was in another project. I still have hope in Bioware but we will see.....

 

[Woodsey]

They're not purists, just if you like old-school RPGs and they're now changing then you won't be happy.

Personally, I loved Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, and defend them as RPGs (which is especially necessary with the second), but I don't want Dragon Age to be like them, because the point of it was to be a throwback to old school RPGs. That way, we get the best of both worlds. At the minute they haven't really communicated very well with what they're actually doing.

If they're making it more cinematic and removing those awkward parts in conversations where your character mimes something (poorly, I might add), then great, if they're just ripping stuff out because it's too complicated for some, or because it didn't work as well on the consoles, then that's an issue.

Thankfully, it seems that they're taking bits from Mass Effect whilst keeping it old-school in it's stats and stuff. Although I wish they'd release actual screenshots or something, because all the previews say the art style is great and all I've seen of it makes it uglier than the first (which really wasn't that bad maxed out).

 

[Legion IV]

Well people have been complaining a lot about Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2(even though it isn't out yet).

Well the dumbing down of RPG elements are a part of the issue, but the major point is that Mass Effect 2, as far as RPG's go, is just a bad game...part of the reasoning behind that is the lack of depth

Lack of depth? Seriously? How much more depth do you want?

You think Mass Effect 2 had depth?

Its "decisions" were black or white with only a couple containing shades of grey.
Its characters lacked depth and were bland copies of previous Bioware games.
The combat was dumbed down, lacking the tactical approach from the previous game.
The skill system removed a number of options that gave the illusion of choice, thus dumbing down the game.
The Paragon, Renegade system was dumbed down, only allowing the player to select specific options depending on previous "role-playing" aspects, instead of giving them full choice.

Need I go on?

FINALLY Thank you! You forgot to mention that if you dont go either all into praragon or renegade your F*(&^% but finnaly somone on this forum gets it. Also Props for the metal slug avatar.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

They drive me nuts, too. They say the same things about Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas.


I simply tell them you can call Modern Warfare 2 an RPG if you go by literal meaning of the acronym. As you play the game[/b[, you play the role of a US Marine(I think) fighting the russians. Sounds to me like an RPG if we take the acronym literally.



That usually shuts 'em right up. They absolutely hate it when you do that. If it doesn't, I simply remind them that they have no right to tell me what to play and to kindly fuck off. Then I block them. Then I go back to stealing stuff.

So you win arguments by being more annoying than them?

 

[DVS Storm]

Personally, I loved Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, and defend them as RPGs (which is especially necessary with the second), but I don't want Dragon Age to be like them, because the point of it was to be a throwback to old school RPGs. That way, we get the best of both worlds. At the minute they haven't really communicated very well with what they're actually doing.

I agree. Even though Dragon Age 2 sounds awesome, I wish that they wouldn't have changed it that much. We would have ME which is more action oriented and DA which would be more old-school. But we'll see what happens.

 

[D_987]

Please do, nothing you said so far would warrant calling the game 'bad'. And the characters were not bland, at all. Did you even play the loyalty missions?

Oh, that wasn't my explanation as to why the game is bad, that was just as to why the game is dumbed down.

The game is bad because it has a terrible main plot line. [The story goes side-ways not forwards and if you choose certain choices you literally end the game having gained absolutely nothing from it with a number of plot holes and really poor story-telling mechanics [the introduction of The Illusive Man, for example, but there're absolutely tons of issues with plot points in the game]

The combat is dull, uninspired and tries way to hard to be Gears of War, it also removes a lot of the tactics due to small corridors and dumbed down gameplay.

The choices within the game and the morality system have been touched upon.

The character were bland and boring if you've played any previous Bioware game; they're using the same character archetypes over and over again...

Lack of grand scale; the universe feels like it's very small and filled with corridors in Mass Effect 2, not so in the first.

Ties to the first game were poor, in fact, the fact your choices had such little impact hurt the franchise, as there was always a great deal of curiosity regarding Mass Effect 2 as to how the experience would change. Now we know how little they actually matter my interest in the final game is low.

There's more, mostly to do with the horrendous main storyline and how it butchers established lore from the first game, but you get the idea - it was a bad game.

 

[Okysho]

I havent' had the chance to play ME2 or DA yet, but I have played ME1 and a few of the more popular Western RPGs.

I want to say that RPGs in general (including JRPGs if anyone in this thread is also a fan like me) are going through a transformation. Almost like it's leveling up ^.^

There are the cores aspects of course. You play a character (customizable or not, just to include the other RPG types, bear with me if you don't agree) and you go through a series of events to complete a story/campaign. Using DnD as the model, these are the bookends of the RPG.

Now I'm going to reference MovieBob's "The Big Picture" here and say that nerds express their love for something by turning it into an equation. This really comes out in RPGs (combat, magic, defense are all stat checks determined by various equations) and has been a core part of RPG gaming since... forever.

Now, I agree like most peopel that a good, balanced skill tree is one of the things that makes RPGs fun and ups their replay value (I wanna make an assassin that shoots ice next!!) and indeed "does make for the fun times" - Crowshaw, but in all of the ways of trying something new and pushing the envelope, it's getting harder and harder to find stuff that hasn't already been done (and in some cases, done better. See ANY review of a bad game). This is why sometimes the stat trees are being modified and skill sets are either disappearing or again, being modified.

Skill sets and stats have gone from dice rolling, to randomly generated, to "pool your points" and while I don't agree that it doesn't need to change, I think our beloved Bioware and other RPG AAA studios are in the middle of finding a better way of representing these traits in a new way.

I'm gonna say this again, I havne't played ME2 or DA, but I'm still standing by my statement that RPGs are going through a phase. (especially JRPGs too). They're slowly evoling from the turn based combat... very slowly... (See Last Story, for Wii).

And if in the end, it turns out that this "reinventing of the wheel" doesn't work out... hopefully the AAA studios will have enough of a mind to give up and go back to making RPGs the classic way.
...
...
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Balance has always been kind of an issue though... f*cking mages...

Wall-o text... sorry, that's just my opinion

~Okysho

 

[Okysho]

I wish Bethesda wasn't the only company doing sandbox RPGs....

edit: Sandbox FANTASY RPGs

 

[Candidus]

Well, I for one was disappointed with DA Origins. The inventory was rubbish, they can drop that. The combat was absolutely yawn inducing- and let's remember I love Baldur's Gate 2 combat, DA's just missed something... I stupidly went with a two handed sword, that didn't help things. Your character looks like an amateur with a huge ol' club. For the whole game. Animations are uncool and seriously drawn out- how does anyone get excited about it when the quality is so low?

Another thing that bothered me: a few of the decisions had real potential for depth and maturity, such as the one made at the Anvil of the Void between Caridin and Branka... But no, they decided that these two rationally competitive points of view had to be boiled down to the OBVIOUSLY naughty decision, and the OBVIOUSLY good decision. As a result of my disgust, the whole Orzammar section is basically unplayable for me. Every time after the first, I've completed it in two minutes flat with the debug console.

Meh... Sorry, back to the topic.

Mass Effect `is` an RPG, and DA2 will be an RPG. In the end, all games, including all current RPGs, are telling one story from one perspective: in BG2 you're always the Bhaalspawn, in DAO you're always the last grey warden. Inventory systems don't make an RPG, and neither does stat shuffling. If you have a greater than ordinary freedom to influence the course of the `one` story being told, we tend to label the game in question an RPG, and that's an alright definition by me.

 

[Raikov]

*snip*

Well, I'm one of those you call 'RPG purists' and I DO think Dragon Age Origins is bad, and that the sequel will probably be worse. But I don't mind much the play style, the lack of skills or the very generic story.

The biggest problem I have with Dragon Age is that Bioware said that Dragon Age would be 'the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2'. And that is the worst kind of bullshit I've ever heard.

Otherwise, I think that Mass Effect is quite good, and I look forward to the second sequel.

 

[DVS Storm]

Please do, nothing you said so far would warrant calling the game 'bad'. And the characters were not bland, at all. Did you even play the loyalty missions?

The game is bad because it has a terrible main plot line. [The story goes side-ways not forwards and if you choose certain choices you literally end the game having gained absolutely nothing from it with a number of plot holes and really poor story-telling mechanics [the introduction of The Illusive Man, for example, but there're absolutely tons of issues with plot points in the game]

Bioware's main storywriter was in some other project when they were making ME2. That's the main reason the plot is pretty too simple. You might argue, that why were they making it without him and I wonder that too. Of course they wnted to get the game out balaa blaa but couldn't they have waited.

 

[omegaminus]

I simply tell them you can call Modern Warfare 2 an RPG if you go by literal meaning of the acronym. As you play the game, you play the role of a US Marine(I think) fighting the russians. Sounds to me like an RPG if we take the acronym literally.

I think that simplifies the definition too much. Is Infamous an RPG because you're playing the role of Cole McGrath? Is Halo an RPG because you're playing the role of Master Chief?

The role needs to be chosen by the player, otherwise you get a definition which includes Infamous and Halo and thousands of other such games, making the RPG term virtually meaningless. There's also agreement that the character you're role playing as needs to have certain skills and attributes (stats) that can be developed and improved as time goes by, but that's certainly not implicit in the term "Role-Playing Game".

 

[Swny Nerdgasm]

Only proper RPG's I can think off all involve dice