Rule: If I need to go to GameFAQs to fully experience your game...

[Onyx Oblivion]

old skool RPG action, baby.

I hate old games sometimes.

 

[Carnagath]

If you think this was hard try DQ8 on the PS2. DAMN good game, one of my favorites, but it could be hard to figure out exactly what you needed to do at times.

Really? I only used a crafting list FAQ on DQ8, I never got lost once while playing the game. There's always some massive dialogue telling you where to go next, and every "next" location is conveniently a few minutes right down the road from where you came. Didn't get that feeling at all there.

Yeah I found DQ8 a pretty straightforward affair overall. Even for crafting it's not like they don't give you hints for it.

Well, to be fair, "A Dress + Some Kind Of Shield" barely qualifies as a hint

 

[mrfusspot]

I agree that it gets irritating at a point if I have to dig through a FAQ in order to find out where I need to go next.
But at the same time, I'd much rather the game doesn't hold my hand through the whole thing. Give me some time of searching, and if I get particularly lost, have a nice handy in game guide thingy.
Tales of Symphonia, for example. I can go run around all I want (for the most part), but they have the Story Thus Far section of the menu to tell you where you came from and where it wants you to go next, without forcing you into it.

 

[Scobie]

DELETED

 

[Rathy]

I actually enjoy games that don't explicitly tell you where to go every time. Linear enough that I know the plot to follow, but open enough I can spend an hour wandering around trying different places for objectives.

Then again, I also enjoy games like DW1, where you are basically given 0 information on anything, and just discover the world yourself.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

I would like to be able to perfect a game without gamefaqs, but I usually find that only apples to games without all that much too them... besides, I always check to see if there's any missables for me to check for... I hate missables

It's funny you should say that when your supposed "greatest console game of all time," FF6, is absolutely FILLED with that shit.

is it? I never thought so

 

[Comic Sans]

If you think this was hard try DQ8 on the PS2. DAMN good game, one of my favorites, but it could be hard to figure out exactly what you needed to do at times.

Really? I only used a crafting list FAQ on DQ8, I never got lost once while playing the game. There's always some massive dialogue telling you where to go next, and every "next" location is conveniently a few minutes right down the road from where you came. Didn't get that feeling at all there.

It was mostly when you had to fulfill a specific criteria to make something happen. At that part where you need to head to the top of the mountain at night to help make the king happy, I stood there for ages because I had talked to everyone in the area and it was obvious where I needed to go. I didn't know I was supposed to go to the castle at night and see the king and talk to the maid before I could move on. I had skipped the middle man unintentionally. I also had a little bit of trouble finding the village David was from if I remember right. I haven't played the game in ages, but don't remember finding something specifically telling me where in the world I needed to go.

Those were the offenders I was thinking about. Now DQ2, THAT one was harsh. No clues, no help, no reliable map. You NEED a guide to get through that, and maybe DQ3 to a lesser extent. Those are old, though, so it's more excusable.

 

[oppp7]

That's how I felt about Wind Waker. Couldn't beat the game without a guide because the place was too huge.

For some games though a guide can be a big help without ruining the experience, such as Guild Wars or Pokemon.

 

[Icecoldcynic]

I disagree. Plenty of games have incredibly complex things that really can only be found out using guides, or simply never found out at all. For example, getting the ultimate weapons in Final Fantasy games. Without a guide, the average player would NEVER attain them, but does it make the game suck? No.

Because the fucking average player isn't supposed to find them. It may be harsh but it's true. If it's something not crucial to the main plot of the game that has no effect on the game at all beyond making your little men stronger and it's obtusely obscure to find, chances are it's meant for the dedicated players and obsessive types who care way too much about little numbers. Not people who just pick up and play games for the story and nothing else, who don't even care that they don't have maxed stats and optimum shit.

Well yeah that was kind of my point...

 

[SimuLord]

It's funny you should say that when your supposed "greatest console game of all time," FF6, is absolutely FILLED with that shit.

Difference being I never once felt lost while playing through it (in 1994, before there was such a thing as GameFAQs, and without a strategy guide of any kind.) The first part of that game was disturbingly linear, the World of Ruin was just familiar enough and kept its quests pretty self-contained that a guide wasn't necessary.

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

 

[Shazzam]

Try this for a hard game...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game.shtml

 

[Comic Sans]

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

Umm finding the sword was pretty dang easy. Did we play the same game? It was located at one of the only places you couldn't get to without the balloon. It was pretty easy to figure out.

 

[SimuLord]

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

Umm finding the sword was pretty dang easy. Did we play the same game? It was located at one of the only places you couldn't get to without the balloon. It was pretty easy to figure out.

Figuring out where the guy with the balloon was---that was the hard part because, like I said, far-off town, one-line throwaway dialogue Chekhov's Gun, and no clear indication from any NPC in the game to put me back on the trail. After a good four hours of stumbling around and leveling up, I finally was like "fuck it, I'm going to GameFAQs."

This violates one of my most basic rules as a gamer: "No outside help until I've beaten the game."

 

[Comic Sans]

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

Umm finding the sword was pretty dang easy. Did we play the same game? It was located at one of the only places you couldn't get to without the balloon. It was pretty easy to figure out.

Figuring out where the guy with the balloon was---that was the hard part because, like I said, far-off town, one-line throwaway dialogue Chekhov's Gun, and no clear indication from any NPC in the game to put me back on the trail. After a good four hours of stumbling around and leveling up, I finally was like "fuck it, I'm going to GameFAQs."

This violates one of my most basic rules as a gamer: "No outside help until I've beaten the game."

You didn't explore well then. The town wasn't hidden or anything, I found it by accident. You just didn't explore enough. That was on you, not the game.

 

[Bat Vader]

I disagree. Plenty of games have incredibly complex things that really can only be found out using guides, or simply never found out at all. For example, getting the ultimate weapons in Final Fantasy games. Without a guide, the average player would NEVER attain them, but does it make the game suck? No.

Because the fucking average player isn't supposed to find them. It may be harsh but it's true. If it's something not crucial to the main plot of the game that has no effect on the game at all beyond making your little men stronger and it's obtusely obscure to find, chances are it's meant for the dedicated players and obsessive types who care way too much about little numbers. Not people who just pick up and play games for the story and nothing else, who don't even care that they don't have maxed stats and optimum shit.

Even if people use a guide I doubt a lot of them will look for that stuff anyway. The ones who just pick up and play games for the story may or may not want to find the ultimate weapon that is difficult to find. If they do want to find it and use guides to find it than I don't see a problem with it.

I used a guide to find all the pigeons in GTA IV for the 100% achievement, I also am using a guide to find all the feathers and secret messages in Assassins Creed II.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

People play games for different reasons, some of you need to understand that.

Personally if I get stuck in an area for more than 5 minutes I generally will look online for a video walkthrough or consult GameFAQs, I am not keen on doing the whole trial-and-error thing until I work out exactly what to do. I'm personally really bad at that stuff so I do need help, it's nothing to do with the games being shit (usually), it's due to my mental block while playing.

On the more extreme side of things: I really wish I could play point-and-click adventure games properly, I love their rich stories, art style and (usually) great humor. However, nomatter how hard I try I get stuck in every single room of adventure games and I can't work out even the simplest puzzles or item combinations. This prevents me from actually enjoying the game part of adventure games, so I play them with a walkthrough next to me the entire time, and try to view them more as 'interactive stories' than games. Of course this way I have a lot less fun than most people have playing them, but without a guide I get absolutely nowhere and have no fun at all. I try to appreciate them for their other qualities.