Rule: If I need to go to GameFAQs to fully experience your game...

[Thaius]

I think that's pretty much true, except the adventure/visual novel genre. Things like Phoenix Wright and Hotel Dusk are part of a genre that kind of calls for it now and again. It's unfortunate, but it's incredibly difficult to maintain a balance of mystery and clear direction in games like that. Thus, I am more lenient on the need for a guide in that particular genre. Besides, it's usually more than worth it for the story. I used a guide a few times in Phoenix Wright, but it was more than worth it.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

WTF is fully experience a game suppose to mean anyway. Isn't whatever you've experienced with the game your full experience? No matter how far you get in the game that will be your unique experience with the game which is differ from anyone else. And if you don't like reading online guide/help to progress pass a part then just stop playing the game. Why keep playing something if it angers you? But to think that you're entitle to have a particular experience from something just seems a bit arrogant.

 

[Thaius]

It's funny you should say that when your supposed "greatest console game of all time," FF6, is absolutely FILLED with that shit.

Really? 'Cause I only had to look up a guide once for that game, and it's only because I hadn't played in a month and didn't remember what I had to do.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Oh my god FF8 was like that. My friend told me to get it and I had 10 bucks on my PSN anyways so i thought eh, might as well. Seriously almost every time you complete an objective in the story the game leaves you off with absolutely no indication of where you're supposed to go whatsoever. I was in a skype call with him and i was asking him where to go like, every 5 minutes.

 

[SimuLord]

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

Umm finding the sword was pretty dang easy. Did we play the same game? It was located at one of the only places you couldn't get to without the balloon. It was pretty easy to figure out.

Figuring out where the guy with the balloon was---that was the hard part because, like I said, far-off town, one-line throwaway dialogue Chekhov's Gun, and no clear indication from any NPC in the game to put me back on the trail. After a good four hours of stumbling around and leveling up, I finally was like "fuck it, I'm going to GameFAQs."

This violates one of my most basic rules as a gamer: "No outside help until I've beaten the game."

You didn't explore well then. The town wasn't hidden or anything, I found it by accident. You just didn't explore enough. That was on you, not the game.

I didn't explore enough? And THAT, right there, is why I hate JRPGs so damn much (as I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, I play them in bed to help me sleep!)

 

[QueenWren]

I didn't explore enough? And THAT, right there, is why I hate JRPGs so damn much (as I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, I play them in bed to help me sleep!)

But that's not what the game designer had in mind so there not going to make the game easier for that reason. Part of the point of JRPGs is exploration and if you're paying attention its normally not that hard to follow at least the main plot. For the many and varied sidequests that seem to be standard now Guides and FAQs can be a neccessity but I've never needed one for the main story of a JRPG

 

[SimuLord]

I didn't explore enough? And THAT, right there, is why I hate JRPGs so damn much (as I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, I play them in bed to help me sleep!)

But that's not what the game designer had in mind so there not going to make the game easier for that reason. Part of the point of JRPGs is exploration and if you're paying attention its normally not that hard to follow at least the main plot. For the many and varied sidequests that seem to be standard now Guides and FAQs can be a neccessity but I've never needed one for the main story of a JRPG

I'm entirely willing to concede that part of the problem is that I play these games to fall asleep and am not fully alert to pay attention to them. But too often "exploration" is used as an excuse for "make the player run around aimlessly for hours."

 

[Kenjitsuka]

I agree with the OP on some games.
Particularily if they provide a map-system that really sucks.
You're supposed to use it, but because it's vague all the time or a marker is just plain wrong it can get really annoying.

Sometimes gameguides are the offenders tho; crappy in-accurate online maps 'showing' the location of hundreds of collectibles (Pigeons, orbs, graffiti tags, CD's, mission starts and endpoints) wrong or with an icon waaaay too big.

Or maybe I'm at fault for being a neurotic who HAS to find all 500 and go insane when I end up at 498 or 499... ;-)

 

[Comic Sans]

I'm no stranger to ancient JRPGs. DQ4 was just very poorly designed as far as the Guide Dang It factor was concerned. When I read the hint I needed on GameFAQs about the Zenithian Sword, my main thought was "well, that would've been obvious if I'd been playing this game five hours a day, but it's my bedside game. The NPC who indicated what he needed to me was a throwaway line of dialogue in a far-off town masquerading as a Chekhov's Gun."

That's just poor design. I'm not averse to exploration. But parsing line after line of stilted dialogue over and over again is not fun, and it is not acceptable game design.

Umm finding the sword was pretty dang easy. Did we play the same game? It was located at one of the only places you couldn't get to without the balloon. It was pretty easy to figure out.

Figuring out where the guy with the balloon was---that was the hard part because, like I said, far-off town, one-line throwaway dialogue Chekhov's Gun, and no clear indication from any NPC in the game to put me back on the trail. After a good four hours of stumbling around and leveling up, I finally was like "fuck it, I'm going to GameFAQs."

This violates one of my most basic rules as a gamer: "No outside help until I've beaten the game."

You didn't explore well then. The town wasn't hidden or anything, I found it by accident. You just didn't explore enough. That was on you, not the game.

I didn't explore enough? And THAT, right there, is why I hate JRPGs so damn much (as I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, I play them in bed to help me sleep!)

Asking someone to simply check out the world isn't much. Like I said, it's not exactly hidden. It's kinda hard to miss if you move around the bottom of the map at all. No, it wasn't directly spelled out. However, it wasn't hidden either. It simply took a little bit of extra work. As in, look at the world a bit.

 

[Void(null)]

Once upon a time I made an offhand comment that there were two types of gamers: Those who had beaten S.T.A.L.K.E.R and those who had not.

The truth behind the statement is not just that the game is impossibly hard and very few people make it to the end, but that if you do everything that the game tells you, follow the quest logs, map markers and primary objectives, then you will get one of the games "False" Endings.

You need to talk to an NPC, who tells you about a building in Pripyat and follow an entirely different sidequest in order to get the games true ending, and for a game that took me a solid 45 hours to beat getting a "false ending" really did feel like a slap in the face, if for nothing more than I had done everything I was "supposed" to do and was punished for it. Now there is a BioShock'esk reason for that but still.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

It's funny you should say that when your supposed "greatest console game of all time," FF6, is absolutely FILLED with that shit.

Really? 'Cause I only had to look up a guide once for that game, and it's only because I hadn't played in a month and didn't remember what I had to do.

So you found every character build, secret, and sidequest without a guide or any aimless wandering around?

FF6 didnt hide too much, i remember a few things that I needed to consult a guide (or somebody else) like getting Gogo, but most of the espers and such I naturally found

 

[QueenWren]

I didn't explore enough? And THAT, right there, is why I hate JRPGs so damn much (as I mentioned in my very first post in this thread, I play them in bed to help me sleep!)

But that's not what the game designer had in mind so there not going to make the game easier for that reason. Part of the point of JRPGs is exploration and if you're paying attention its normally not that hard to follow at least the main plot. For the many and varied sidequests that seem to be standard now Guides and FAQs can be a neccessity but I've never needed one for the main story of a JRPG

I'm entirely willing to concede that part of the problem is that I play these games to fall asleep and am not fully alert to pay attention to them. But too often "exploration" is used as an excuse for "make the player run around aimlessly for hours."

Yeah, I can see how that would be a problem. You shouldn't have to ask every single person in a village, or explore every inch of the world map just to carry on with the main story. That's the point that I just give up, I'm willing to do that to get GodWeapons or whatever but not just to get from a to b

 

[Plurralbles]

I hold one exception to this rule, that being Point and Click games, and games like Myst.

Those games are still brilliant, but so incredibly difficult that you'll find it very hard to beat them without some sort of guidance. Still, nothing beats actually figuring out a puzzle in one of those by yourself.

However, in all other game types, if you don't know where to go next, the game isn't designed properly. I agree with that. I used to abuse GameFAQs quite a lot back in the day, but I haven't used it in years. Sure, I get stuck on games, just like everyone else, but unless the game is a total mind fuck as goes where to go next (see: Myst), a little bit of patience will get you through almost every situation.

on youtube a guy beats myst in 3 minutes and gets the GOOD ending. It was awesome to watch. The last time I played I got owned by one of the brothers and got stuck in the book at the end of the game.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

It's funny you should say that when your supposed "greatest console game of all time," FF6, is absolutely FILLED with that shit.

Really? 'Cause I only had to look up a guide once for that game, and it's only because I hadn't played in a month and didn't remember what I had to do.

So you found every character build, secret, and sidequest without a guide or any aimless wandering around?

FF6 didnt hide too much, i remember a few things that I needed to consult a guide (or somebody else) like getting Gogo, but most of the espers and such I naturally found

But see, that's still having unintuitive parts, which according to the OP, makes a game shit.

really? wow