Sausage Party and the possible future of animation for older audiences.
- Thread starter EMWISE94
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True, 'mature themes' is vague, so I'll expand on what I mean; usually whenever someone says 'X tackles mature themes' they usually mean things are talked about that don't really get talked about mostly relating to societal issues like depression, crime (usually in a less CSI, NCIS etc fashion), sexuality, etc. It's almost like when someone says something's 'deep', its like a buzz word to make a piece of media seem more valuable than it is and a lot of times in animation I see the term 'mature themes' get tossed around a lot as an attempt to validate shows.Saelune said:
On the shock and violence thing, yeah that's pretty spot on, but I feel like that is also another shorthand to give something a 'mature' rating or to justify it being for mature audiences without having to explain to say, parents or execs why one would have X in an animation, cause that's usually the go to argument in western media regarding animation "kids could be watching this we can't have that subject matter in there." so just amp up your subject matter to the point where they'd be like "yeah this is for adults, you can tell because of all the vulgarity and stuff." which in itself is a bit stigma animation still needs to break.
I'm glad CN let shows like SU have those themes and topics such as homosexuality to be aired, cause at least its slowly getting through that yeah cartoons don't have to be super kid friendly to be cartoons; even stuff like Regular Show which I feel is so on the edge of being an Adult Swim show but is tame enough where it gets aired in a prime time block (I'm assuming, I don't watch TV). I'd say that one of the major things that would need to happen is for adult animation to break away from being mostly comedy, you can point to tons of cartoons meant for an older audience but most of them rely on comedy to have a foundation, where are the dramas, thrillers, action, surreal, romcoms etc.
Movies can also do things books cannot. I know you dont care for superhero movies, but I mean...that airport fight in Civil War is everything I ever wanted from superhero movies! To see these characters from the comics come to life is so amazing for me and why I care so much about them (even if you dont).Ezekiel said:
The real issue of adaptation is neglect of the source, and any conflict of people's personal imagination. If you never see a visual representation of your favorite character in a book, then a movie about it comes out and they look nothing like you thought, it likely bothers you.
Plus some people just dont like to read. I dont have any real desire to read Game of Thrones...and the show is too much. But I could probably enjoy a movie...outside how congested it likely would be.
I just prefer comedy...period. I get bored easily when everything is serious face all the time. But still.EMWISE94 said:
Animation needs to just be respected as a style, not a genre. Its like when people criticize anime. Anime is just a style, and a varied one at that. Anime can be literally anything. A comedy, a drama, a thriller, action, romance, it canbe about ultimate beings fighting for world domination, or kids getting through school life. It can be about basketball players or swimmers, or the son of Satan fighting against his fiendish blood, etc. Assuming its all just robots and schoolgirls is like assuming all movies are Matt Damon films. Its just an overdone cliche, but sometimes someone else is in the movie too.
Once people understand that animation is just a method, then we can really diversify. Step one is getting cartoons to stop being labeled as "Children" on my TV menu, cause Family Guy is not for kids.
A preference to comedy is fine, to each their own, but I strongly feel that western animation can't rely on comedy all the time, another thing that'll boost the medium being seen as just that, a Medium, is to have way more 'artistic' styles to the animation. Currently what you get is a lot of stuff that's simplistic, limited it movement at times or limited in its exaggerations, Family Guy, Simpsons, Bojack Horseman, Rick and Morty, all different art directions but you can't deny their styles are similar, its the same problem I have with anime in general; sure it has all sorts of genres it explores but the art styles are so similar to the point where sometimes it all blurs together.Saelune said:
Obviously a seasoned watcher can spot the difference between a Trigger animated show and a KyoAni show, but to the outsider its the same. As much as I don't like it, sometimes the 'outsider', the mainstream viewer govern what picks up traction and what doesn't, sure you have some niche things that do well cause their niche is either large enough or dedicated to supporting it that it can survive, but to help animation break that stigma of just being seen as "children's entertainment" it's gonna need variety, people already have comedy and I doubt its going anywhere, but more genres are gonna need to be tackled, I'd probably not watch a thriller/horror animation but I'd appreciate that one existed just as a way of expanding the medium in the eyes of others.
Haven't seen Sausage Party, but I'll say this:
If Sausage Party's claim to 'maturity' is that it builds itself up on sex jokes, then that doesn't make it 'mature.' If anything, that makes it juvenile.
If Sausage Party's claim to fame is that it uses the metaphor of food being stored to comment on religion, then regardless of whether you agree with your stance on it or not, then that does show a level of depth in its concept.
Similar to South Park: The Movie. On the surface it's swearing, and more swearing. Beneath it, it's a nice set-up on the nature of censorship and communal 'outrage culture.' Or, Zootopia. I've argued that if we cut out the themes within the movie, it would still be a good movie, because the plot, action, and characters are executed well enough. Its use of themes is what elevates it to a great movie. Likewise, I can respect The Angry Birds Movie for conveying its own anti-imigration, anti-multiculturalism message, even if I don't agree with it. What I can't stand is that it's absolutely obnoxious to watch. Angry Birds isn't 'mature' just because it falls on the opposite end of the socio-political spectrum as Zootopia, it's juvenile because of its manner of delivery.
So, there lies the rub. 'Themes' in of itself doesn't make you mature. 'Edginess' doesn't make you mature by itself either. So when we talk about 'maturity' in animation, my main question is "can I, as an adult, enjoy this?" Angry Birds aside, most of the animated films I've seen this year have been "yes." Shouldn't need to explain Zootopia. The Peanuts Movie is a charming movie that encapsulates the trials of growing up, and conveys them in a respectful way that I, as an adult, can appreciate. Finding Dory is a delightful film that has likable characters, a good story, and while not a deep insight into the nature of disability and how family/friends deal with it (or fail to), is an insight nonetheless, and certainly a sign of maturity. Even Kung Fu Panda 3, while not a deep film by any means, still at least had some level of depth to it (often said that KFP1 isn't a deep film, but does have depth in it), and while grating at times, still had an overall theme, not to mention that the animation was absolutely gorgeous. All of these films have (elements of) maturity in my eyes, all of them are accessible to children. A film doesn't need to be 'adults only' to be mature. So I may see Sausage Party, may not, but it's only in the knowledge of reading reviews that it does go beyond the obvious sex jokes that I'm considering it.
To comment on some other examples:
-Family Guy: Garbage. Maybe it was good once, but now, I just can't stand it.
-The Second Renaissance: It's mature, but the use of blood and gore isn't what makes it mature. It's mature because of its subject matter, and how it approaches said subject matter (e.g. the use of an abstract protagonist - humanity itself).
-Simpsons: Well, at least classic Simpsons is the definition of "for all ages." A child is going to love it for the character dynamic and humour. An adult is going to love it for those reasons, and for its clever sattire and examination of Western/American culture, faith, politics, etc.
-Rocko's Modern Life: Loved this as a kid, haven't seen it as an adult. But I feel it proves my point. As a kid, I loved it. If I can enjoy it as an adult, then it only elevates the cartoon further in my eyes (and I'm aware of RML having some stuff that you wouldn't believe got past censors, such as when Mrs Bighead tries to seduce Rocko).
-Captain America: Civil War: Why does everyone keep mentioning the airport scene? I always thought the best fight scene as at the end, when Tony and Steve fight, because there's actual emotional investment/conflict. The airport scene is more "let's get these heroes to fight for ten minutes because the plot says so."
If Sausage Party's claim to 'maturity' is that it builds itself up on sex jokes, then that doesn't make it 'mature.' If anything, that makes it juvenile.
If Sausage Party's claim to fame is that it uses the metaphor of food being stored to comment on religion, then regardless of whether you agree with your stance on it or not, then that does show a level of depth in its concept.
Similar to South Park: The Movie. On the surface it's swearing, and more swearing. Beneath it, it's a nice set-up on the nature of censorship and communal 'outrage culture.' Or, Zootopia. I've argued that if we cut out the themes within the movie, it would still be a good movie, because the plot, action, and characters are executed well enough. Its use of themes is what elevates it to a great movie. Likewise, I can respect The Angry Birds Movie for conveying its own anti-imigration, anti-multiculturalism message, even if I don't agree with it. What I can't stand is that it's absolutely obnoxious to watch. Angry Birds isn't 'mature' just because it falls on the opposite end of the socio-political spectrum as Zootopia, it's juvenile because of its manner of delivery.
So, there lies the rub. 'Themes' in of itself doesn't make you mature. 'Edginess' doesn't make you mature by itself either. So when we talk about 'maturity' in animation, my main question is "can I, as an adult, enjoy this?" Angry Birds aside, most of the animated films I've seen this year have been "yes." Shouldn't need to explain Zootopia. The Peanuts Movie is a charming movie that encapsulates the trials of growing up, and conveys them in a respectful way that I, as an adult, can appreciate. Finding Dory is a delightful film that has likable characters, a good story, and while not a deep insight into the nature of disability and how family/friends deal with it (or fail to), is an insight nonetheless, and certainly a sign of maturity. Even Kung Fu Panda 3, while not a deep film by any means, still at least had some level of depth to it (often said that KFP1 isn't a deep film, but does have depth in it), and while grating at times, still had an overall theme, not to mention that the animation was absolutely gorgeous. All of these films have (elements of) maturity in my eyes, all of them are accessible to children. A film doesn't need to be 'adults only' to be mature. So I may see Sausage Party, may not, but it's only in the knowledge of reading reviews that it does go beyond the obvious sex jokes that I'm considering it.
To comment on some other examples:
-Family Guy: Garbage. Maybe it was good once, but now, I just can't stand it.
-The Second Renaissance: It's mature, but the use of blood and gore isn't what makes it mature. It's mature because of its subject matter, and how it approaches said subject matter (e.g. the use of an abstract protagonist - humanity itself).
-Simpsons: Well, at least classic Simpsons is the definition of "for all ages." A child is going to love it for the character dynamic and humour. An adult is going to love it for those reasons, and for its clever sattire and examination of Western/American culture, faith, politics, etc.
-Rocko's Modern Life: Loved this as a kid, haven't seen it as an adult. But I feel it proves my point. As a kid, I loved it. If I can enjoy it as an adult, then it only elevates the cartoon further in my eyes (and I'm aware of RML having some stuff that you wouldn't believe got past censors, such as when Mrs Bighead tries to seduce Rocko).
-Captain America: Civil War: Why does everyone keep mentioning the airport scene? I always thought the best fight scene as at the end, when Tony and Steve fight, because there's actual emotional investment/conflict. The airport scene is more "let's get these heroes to fight for ten minutes because the plot says so."
There are a lot of really good animated movies for adults out there, but they're mostly from Europe, Japan and even Africa or the Middle East (hell, basically anything other than American), like Waltz with Bashir, The Illusionist, Persepolis, Perfect Blue, Paprika, Watership Down, Grave of the Fireflies, etc. There's tons.
There is actually a pretty good amount of more mature-themed Western animation, but a lot of it is short-format. Long-form, wide-release Western animation isn't profitable. Sausage Party, which has more in common with vulgar, serialized, primetime animation took a long time to get made and was, comparably, a budget picture.
There are some mavericks like Bill Plympton and Don Hertzfeldt, but those guys fly solo, and animate in distinct styles that probably aren't appealing to most people. If I had to recommend a film, it'd be Hertzfeldt's It's Such a Beautiful day, which is a comedy about a man dying of a degenerative mind disease.
There are some mavericks like Bill Plympton and Don Hertzfeldt, but those guys fly solo, and animate in distinct styles that probably aren't appealing to most people. If I had to recommend a film, it'd be Hertzfeldt's It's Such a Beautiful day, which is a comedy about a man dying of a degenerative mind disease.
Because the airport scene was a huge fight with Captain America, Iron Man, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Black Widow, Ant/Giant-Man, Spider-Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, War-Machine, Hawkeye, and Black Panther. Hell, I almost wish they throw up some Batman POWS and ZAPS!Hawki said:
Do you realize that you kind of prove my point, right? All your post mentions is that "it's a huge fight" with (insert list of characters here). That isn't narratively engaging in of itself.Saelune said:
If you want another example, think of Star Wars. Ask people what they think the best lightsaber duel is in the films, and they'll usually nominate Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi, with Luke facing Vader in each case, and the emotional sub-text that comes with each confrontation. Few people will nominate the Darth Maul or Dooku fights, because while they're much flashier, they don't have nearly as much 'meat' narratively speaking.
I dont really care. Not that I dont enjoy the emotional depth ever...but to see so many of my beloved Marvel Characters just duke it out was FUCKING AWESOME!Hawki said:
And ya know what? Star Wars needs more epic Jedi/Sith fights. One of my many dissapointments in Force Awakens, was I was hoping Luke would have trained a new generation of Jedi to go have epic fights against a new generation of Sith, so we can have a Star Wars version of the airport scene. One of the few cool things about the Prequels, was getting to see a ton of Jedi be Jedi. I wish that arena scene focused more on the Jedi action instead of it just being a rave in the background.
Luke vs Vader fights were great scenes, but meh fights. Now imagine if in the prequels, instead of just Yoda and Palpatine destroying the senate, we had Yoda, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and some other Jedi going head to head with Palpatine, Anakin, Dooku, and Grevious?
I probably would have walked out of the theater at that very moment if I saw that. It would have felt like 'Star Wars' just became a WWF/WWE cage match (complete with all the contrived/cliched trappings) or a bad fanfiction story.Saelune said:
Throwing more shit at the screen, regardless of franchise (Marvel/DC/Star Wars/Star Trek) does not make a movie/comic book/TV show better. Many times it makes a work of art worse.
Few points:Saelune said:
-I don't think mass Jedi vs. Sith would work in TFA. Are the Jedi supposed to get an army in the scope of thirty years? Are the Sith going to rise again, especially when TFA exposits the idea that the Dark Side works through various agents at various points in history, and the Sith were just one of them?
-The arena scene was fine, but not for the same reasons for me. It demonstrates how the Jedi are out of their league, and that times have changed. As Windu says, "we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers," and the Clone Wars demonstrates the need for an army beyond the Jedi.
-The Yoda idea...no. Just no. The fight between Yoda and Palpatine works on two levels, aside from visual spectacle. One, we have the lord of the Sith going up against the de facto leader of the Jedi, with the fate of the Republic at stake, balancing out with the more intimate duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Secondly, Palpatine uses telekinesis to send the senate chairs flying towards Yoda, symbolizing his destruction of the democratic system - he is literally destroying the platforms of elected representatives. I can't see this working nearly as well if it was a mass battle of Sith vs. Jedi. Especially since Grievous, in the scope of RotS, is just some robot who fights with four lightsabers because it's "kewl."
Bear in mind, I actually consider the prequels a net positive, as flawed as the first two episodes are (and RotS still has flaws), but they do demonstrate how you need more than over the top action to be invested in the characters taking part in said action.
The first point doesnt matter since the same question can be asked how the First Order was able to turn the New Republic back into the rebels, even though it should be the other way around.Hawki said:
I just wanted Luke to be leading a bunch of young Jedi, and maybe round up those random ones scattered about, since they were never all killed off. And lightsaber fights are better against other lightsabers. I dont care what you call them, evil force users, Sith, Kathlarblook, Every Villain Is Lemons, what have you.
I just want cool Force and Lightsaber fights. I want them to be relevant to the plot sure, but I want them. Whats cool about KotoR is seeing a less disparate time, where there werent just one or two force people dicking around.
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Can that really be counted as "animated" though?Smygskytt said:
I mean, it was acted and filmed normally, and then the film cells were taken and completely animated over. 99% of the work was literally just coloring in what was already there.
I've seen the movie, it was kind of cool and felt novel, but at the same time I felt like the animation barely added anything. It would have been almost identical had they just left the film cells uncolored.
I just mean that it shouldnt have been A New Hope and the good guys shouldnt have become the underdogs so suddenly and easily, and instead should have explored a good reason IN THE MOVIE to show them lacking the ability to maintain power and order so this new threat can actually go from being the underdog to being the antagonist that needs to be stopped.Hawki said:
