School shootings in America (and a wee bit help with homework!)

[Superbeast]

father time I've edited my above post to adress your edit. You should re-read it.

Also you're assuming that criminals actually obey the gun laws and that those laws stop them from getting them. Which ranks just below the idea that putting a 'no guns allowed' rule at a school will actually stop a madman from going in and shooting up the place.

Criminals (yes even low-life muggers) will just get guns from a black market and continue owning guns meanwhile you're restricting the citizen from owning a piece of self-defense under the unfounded assumption that all of the muggers will go back to knives.

The UK has never had a school shooting, so it must be working to at least a small degree.

I do not know how muggers act, true, but then when there are statistics (that you so thoughtfully provided for me) that also back up my own experiences, I tend to believe in a form of corellation.

Low-life muggers will *not* get guns from the black market, as the cost of a gun is quite high. Why spend money they could be spending on their next fix (of whatever substance they partake in...or putting into a savings account, whatever it is these days).

High-level criminals *will* still get guns. But they're more likely to raid stores, banks, jewellry chains and other "classic" targets like that.

The most incdents of firearms-deaths in the UK is gang-related (even if the victim isn't in the gang, such as the 8 year old that was killed crossing a pub carpark when the target was a rival ganger on the other side), and not used in average muggings (though there may have been a percentage or two increase in firearms-related muggings, the firearms-related fatalities have still fallen).


The point about whether enforcing gun control in the states is possible is one I can agree on - I don't know that it is possible thanks to the degree to which guns are ingrained into the culture and in such high circulation, combined with current lack of border control/international co-operation and judicial system deterrants. But that doesn't mean that having tighter controls (were there a method of enforcing them) wouldn't work - other nations manage just fine.

Guns are not like alcohol or drugs. People do not use handguns daily (people going to the pubs), and though they may hunt daily I've already advocated retaining rifles to hunt; and neither do they get habitual addictions to guns (people using hard drugs). Drugs are also a far more profitable market, ensuring that people go to more lengths to ensure they can be smuggled into the country (well, bar automatic and high-grade weaponry, but that's not the sort of stuff we're talking about anyway). That's why it *could* work (there isn't the same demand that alcohol had, and neither is there the dependancy/market that drugs have).

 

[Superbeast]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
(Seriously this took me two minutes to find).

You learn something new every day.

Mind you, take a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

I count 4 attacks on UK schools:

1 was using a machette
1 was in 1930, well before any regulation
1 was the cause of proper regulation against automatic weapons/large ammunition capacity shotguns (Firearms [Ammendment] Act 1988).

So that leaves 1, in all the records, that was a bona-fide, post-(modernised)-regulation shooting. And the outcome? It tightened regulation on handguns (Cullen Inquiry/Snowdrop Petition). The result? No more school massacres.

There are 1-2 attacks on there for Norway, Sweden, Holland and Finland (IIRC)

There are a few for Canada (didn't count)

How many are there on the for the United States (some may be non-gun related, there's too many to check at 3am)?

What do all the countries with low shootings have in common (clue: regulation). Most of these attacks are either by criminals (supporting your black market theory I guess) or are by kids who have accessed parents' weapons (meaning that they shouldn't be so widely available).

Ok great so now instead of giving the mugger a defenseless target we're giving the robber a defenseless target. How's that helping?

By the fact that the mugger/robber doesn't feel the need to go prepared to face an armed person? They may still take a weapon anyway, but if the victim is defenceless they will co-operate and very likely not be hurt.

We try to restrict guns from criminals but still let citizens get them. You should try that then you wouldn't be taking away liberties.

Nah, we prefer just not having so many people get shot, by not having the guns in any great quantities in the first place. Going by the numbers (of firearms related offenses, firearm-related deaths and number of shool shootings) it seems to be working rather well. Why don't you try a bit of nation-wide regulation? As for loosing liberties we, as a country (and I'm sure many non-USA residents will support me in this) do not see having the possession of a gun a "liberty" but a "liability" and prefer to go with (our) tested methods of restricting access.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Being mugged once or twice does not mean you know how muggers think or act or how most robbers are going to act. Sorry but a sample size of less than 6 (guessing) is too pitifully low to draw conclusions.

The lawbreaker doesn't HAVE to carry a gun he can go after those he thinks are un-armed. You know the easy targets. It's not rocket science. And you're missing the point if the gun is of little help why the hell would a mugger think it's necessary to also carry a gun, wouldn't they stick with their cheap knife?

ok try my experiment with water guns, see if you can pull your gun for "protection" before your friend can hit you. funny thing is no one has tried it and will dismiss it as being fake but if i said "use real guns with real ammo" then you'd say "well i don't want to get shot and killed", which means i'm right that you can't pull a gun on a mugger and not be shot

however most muggers are NOT high level criminals, crack heads are popular ones, so sure you MIGHT luck out and they won't have bullets but if you ban handguns or put even stricter regulations on them, you'll notice the crimes levels with them

btw a 4% increase isn't much, it would be considered part of normal deviation, ie acurate within +/- 5%, also sure they could increase by 4% HOWEVER did the actual rate increase because don't forget the population can increase, which means if the population increased by 10% that year, the rate would have dropped, the amount of gun violence will actually have to surpass the population growth to actually raise the rate

Also you're assuming that criminals actually obey the gun laws and that those laws stop them from getting them. Which ranks just above the idea that putting a 'no guns allowed' rule at a school will actually stop a madman from going in and shooting up the place.

ok ppl who have been thru muggings are no experts but obviously you're the expert on how criminals act and think

the thing is if someone is going to shoot up a place, they're going to shoot up a place, nothing will really stop them, however you can easily discourage a lot of that behavior, most of the ppl who do things like that are legal gun owners, most gun crimes are commited by those who own the guns and purchased them legally and NOT by black market guns

Criminals (yes even low-life muggers) will just get guns from a black market and continue owning guns meanwhile you're restricting the citizen from owning a piece of self-defense under the unfounded assumption that all of the muggers will go back to knives (or perhaps you're going to tell me it's easier to stop a mugging unarmed than with a gun).

once again try my experiment with water guns, please tell me the results of what happened, if you refuse to do it, you have admitted i'm right that a gun won't protect you in a mugging

The feds have poured billions and wasted a ton of time trying to stop drugs from getting into the U.S. has it worked? No.
Same with booze in the 20s
What in all holy hell will make you think it'll work now with guns?

hahaha yeah that "war on drugs" is a joke, it's all a big show, if they wanted they could easily stop the flow of drugs into the country but frankly the millions of dollars put into the economy makes them not want to do that

If you're going to point to a trend saying gun control works I can point to one saying stopping a black market won't work (and I got the economics of supply and demand to back me up).

Funny that you guys keep ignoring the crime rates in the states. Oh well
http://www.guncite.com/lott.pdf

actually we aren't ignoring them, you've failed to actually offer anything on why places like Japan, the UK, Ireland, Canada and many others still have a LOT lower rate of murder by firearms

also those stats aren't the greatest, i did show how florida's murder by firearms actually increased when they were supposed to be going down

Vast majority!? And they say we Americans stereotype...

well there is more than 50% of the ppl who own guns in america, which means the vast majourity, also look at the ppl on there that foolishly think they can protect themselves with a gun

 

[Arsen]

Sigh.
There is no way to "prevent" these kind of incidents. Take away guns, then kids will grab knives. Doesn't Great Britian have a problem with this type of violence? To what extent I don't know, but I know it's present.

Either way, if someone is angry enough or to use a weapon there are many alternatives to a gun. Although I would like to make a point that it wouldn't be as easy to kill someone.

Overall, there could be better security measures installed for protecting the schools themselves. I have no clue what they are, but if we think we can accomplish it.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Being mugged once or twice does not mean you know how muggers think or act or how most robbers are going to act. Sorry but a sample size of less than 6 (guessing) is too pitifully low to draw conclusions.

The lawbreaker doesn't HAVE to carry a gun he can go after those he thinks are un-armed. You know the easy targets. It's not rocket science. And you're missing the point if the gun is of little help why the hell would a mugger think it's necessary to also carry a gun, wouldn't they stick with their cheap knife?

ok try my experiment with water guns, see if you can pull your gun for "protection" before your friend can hit you. funny thing is no one has tried it and will dismiss it as being fake but if i said "use real guns with real ammo" then you'd say "well i don't want to get shot and killed", which means i'm right that you can't pull a gun on a mugger and not be shot

I've heard from several people stories that contradicts yours, not every mugger sneaks up behind you.

It also works very well if you have a partner (even if only one of you has a gun). Oh and there's several reports of people shooting muggers mugging someone else.

ok so you've heard stories of murder? if you're life is not threatened and you shoot someone that is called murder or at the very least assault with a deadly weapon. which proves my theory of gun violence even correct

and not all muggers come up from behind but there are a bunch that do, especially if there is 2 of them

however most muggers are NOT high level criminals, crack heads are popular ones, so sure you MIGHT luck out and they won't have bullets but if you ban handguns or put even stricter regulations on them, you'll notice the crimes levels with them

btw a 4% increase isn't much, it would be considered part of normal deviation, ie acurate within +/- 5%, also sure they could increase by 4% HOWEVER did the actual rate increase because don't forget the population can increase, which means if the population increased by 10% that year, the rate would have dropped, the amount of gun violence will actually have to surpass the population growth to actually raise the rate

Except the crime rate was measured per capita meaning it all ready accounts for population shifts. And where's your source that 5% is normal deviation?
[/quote]

actually no in all articles it says increase not the increase in rate. so they're taking the actual number not the rate of it, so most of that can easily be chalked up to grow

ok ppl who have been thru muggings are no experts but obviously you're the expert on how criminals act and think

No but I'm not going to assume all muggers attack from the rear.

i never said they all come up from behind, yet you assumed i said that

the thing is if someone is going to shoot up a place, they're going to shoot up a place, nothing will really stop them,

Civilians with guns will.

no they won't, if you think that's true, you're sadly mistaken, if you've decided you're going to take lives do you really think that you will go "well i'm not going to go shoot up people cause they MIGHT have a gun"

that's comedy gold if you honestly think that

however you can easily discourage a lot of that behavior, most of the ppl who do things like that are legal gun owners, most gun crimes are commited by those who own the guns and purchased them legally and NOT by black market guns

Where is your fucking source? It's such an extraordinary claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

there's a ton of them, they ALL got guns legally

cause yeah i'm sure high school kids are going to go find some criminal to buy a gun from before going to shoot up their schools

virginia tech AND columbine were both done by LEGALLY purchased guns

once again try my experiment with water guns, please tell me the results of what happened, if you refuse to do it, you have admitted i'm right that a gun won't protect you in a mugging

Except you can find documented stories where it HAS.

and tons more where it didn't, they are considered murders tho and not muggings or failed mugging attempts

hell try my experiment from the front with your friend pointing the water gun at you, see if you can draw before he shoots you

hahaha yeah that "war on drugs" is a joke, it's all a big show, if they wanted they could easily stop the flow of drugs into the country but frankly the millions of dollars put into the economy makes them not want to do that

How? They all ready spend billions of dollars and it's not working.

sure they say "we spend billions" but if they wanted they could easily stop the drug trade, instead they have this "war on drugs" because it puts up a good face for everyone to think that something's being done and they make a couple token arrests here and then to show something's being accomplished

If you're going to point to a trend saying gun control works I can point to one saying stopping a black market won't work (and I got the economics of supply and demand to back me up).

Funny that you guys keep ignoring the crime rates in the states. Oh well
http://www.guncite.com/lott.pdf

actually we aren't ignoring them, you've failed to actually offer anything on why places like Japan, the UK, Ireland, Canada and many others still have a LOT lower rate of murder by firearms

How many times do I have to tell you?

I don't know the answer but your answer has no proof backing it up.

actually the lower rates of murder DO prove it, you've just said i have no proof. i've posted TONS of stats and links showing the rates of murder

Vast majority!? And they say we Americans stereotype...

well there is more than 50% of the ppl who own guns in america, which means the vast majourity, also look at the ppl on there that foolishly think they can protect themselves with a gun

Where's your source?

[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

there's one

 

[cleverlymadeup]

A 1994 US survey estimated the number of times a gun was used in self-defense to be over 764,000

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

It also puts the number of times the offender was also armed at 26.2%

did you even read that? i'm guessing not cause they said the main survey everyone uses is rather inaccurate and total bunk and not very accurate

You still going to try to argue they can't be used for self-defense?

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080828/NEWS/80828002
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

yeah and lightning can be used as a defense too