School shootings in America (and a wee bit help with homework!)

[Ultrajoe]

other countries, such as canada, britain and japan, have strict gun control hardly any gun violence.

Hardly any GUN violence, that's right. However that counts for about shit because nutjobs are still dangerous no matter what tool they use. Remember last year in China when a guy ran a van into a market then jumped out and started stabbing people? 17 victims or so? THen a few weeks later another guy in China ran into a POLICE STATION and STABBED 5 POLICE OFFICERS. China has strict gun control too.

Uh-oh!

Yes, that certainly justifies arming your violent nutjobs with efficient weapons of harm. I'm glad we cleared that up, you can tell all the families of the victims 'they was going to be stabbed anyway'.

The hilarity is that Americans as a whole are all slanted on the issue, even the gun-hating ones. Your entire culture thinks differently to the rest of the world. If we took to a cannibal tribe and told them to stop eating people, they would react in much the same way. Their view on the issue doesn't have the taboo and cultural standpoint that everyone else does.

American gun-culture, that which saturates the entire population, no matter their stance or opinion of it, is an anomaly. Don't try talking them out of it, because they aren't thinking on the same line as you. This example here demonstrates the point wonderfully, and the funny thing is that every american thinks what i just said means something different to what you do.

This is culture shock at it's most insidious.

 

[bjj hero]

Ill start by saying I will never own a gun and am happy guns are restricted in my country, now...

When I lived in Texas I was talking with my friend about guns and how prevelent they are in Tx, he told me the following story:

While a college my friend worked in a pawn shop. Whilst in there a man came in to his store, pulled a pistol and proceeded to rob the till. My friend had a gun under the counter pulled it and a shoot out commenced. IT turned out that this guy was on PCP and was still firing back after a shot to the chest. My friend killed this man. When the cops had sorted the mess out they told him that this man had robbed 2 stores in the last month or so and killed the cashier both times.

No amount of talk would convince him that he should abandon his guns; they saved his life. I am glad Im in a country where stories like the one above dont happen. We agreed to disagree and stayed friends with out either of us questioning the mental capacity of the other.

As he said to me; This is Texas godamnit, and if your on my property intendin to do harm Im gonna take my gun and shoot you.

Its a completely different culture.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Yeah because we disagree with you it must be because something's wrong with us there can't be another explanation.

Oh and most people here (even our biggest gun lobby the NRA) supports background checks to try to keep guns out of the hands of crazies. It's amazing that you can know so much about our 'gun culture' and how Americans are hard wired with an anti-gun control bias and yet not know that.

Idiot.

I'm impressed that you managed to miss my point, prove my point and insult me in 6 lines.

I never said there was anything wrong with you, but your paranoia and defensiveness does you credit. You are the perfect candidate to own a gun.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Oh I'm sorry was comparing us to cannibals, saying "Your entire culture thinks differently to the rest of the world." and then implying we're stubborn about it not supposed to be taken as an insult?

Only if you're a bigoted ass against cannibals, a people with rich cultural tradition and fascinating history. And only if you're so xenophobic that the thought of being different in any way is affronting.

And golly whiz, heaven forbid i should call you stubborn about it. That would almost mean you fly into a reactionary rage the moment someone offers perceived criticism!

 

[JRslinger]

My Source: The National crime victimization survey
Source: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1615397&blobtype=pdf

estimated ~65,000 defensive gun uses per year. Cleverly you think that several times this number of people are injured or killed in failed self defense attempts. In the course of my gun related research I've read a lot of anti-gun propoganda, much of it lies or half truths, yet I've NEVER seen any research that claimed that hundreds of thousands of Americans are killed/injured attempting to use a gun in self defense. Please provide a source for your statement or take it back.

The fact that many people have used guns in self defense shows that criminals DON'T always get the drop on the good guy. Being a victim of crime isn't always inevitable. Good guys can fight back and win.

 

[Ultrajoe]

You really think I'm stupid enough to believe that you chose to compare us to cannibals not knowing that there is a huge public stigma against cannibalism? Or that you signaling us out wasn't meant to imply that we're different and crazy? Give me a break.

It's funny that you're trying to take the smug 'holier than though' road after all ready calling a large group stubborn and me a paranoid hothead.

Stubborn is not good criticism it's an insult but if you insist please take me calling you a pompous blowhard as constructive criticism and not insulting. We don't need anyone being flying off the handle over it.

Why do you equate different with crazy? Is this something you do subconsciously or a stigma you logically apply? Is this why you find the perfectly passive suggestion that you are different an insult? I'm different, everyone here is different. Do you find it irksome that you and your countrymen might differ from the world? And my point is that everywhere else, there is a huge stigma against guns, just like you and your somewhat baffling fear of cannibalism bursting down your door and eating you. My point is that like a cannibal, you are unaware of this stigma. If you find that insulting, then don't come and show me your twisted knickers when you caused them to knot yourself.

And i'm not trying to take any smug or superior road. If you perceive me as being superior, perhaps you need to question yourself more than my motives. If anything, the fact that you fly into this defensive position at the merest mention of the difference only goes to support the idea that you are unaware of the distinction.

And i agree, we don't need anyone 'being flying over the handle', that's why it makes me so confused that you are doing just that. You'd think i'd just said you killed puppies for the passion you bring to it's denial.

Calm down, you'll make everyone think you're a paranoid hothead.

 

[Ultrajoe]

No but I get the feeling you're trying to imply we're crazy by pointing out we're the only country that fights gun control. "Look at those crazy US guys they're the only ones on this planet who think letting people own guns is a good idea."

If you find the idea crazy, then why do you keep doing it? If you don't find it crazy, then where did this idea come from? I never said 'crazy', in fact all i said was that you think in a different manner to the rest of us concerning this issue. Given the fact that this is true for any nation on any issue, i can't understand why you immediately go for my throat with accusations of insult.

I don't mind cannibals but everyone I've ever seen thinks it's either disgusting, the act of an insane individual, or immoral. I doubt that you're culture is that much more accepting of cannibals.

So to sum up, I don't think it's insulting but I have a large feeling your trying to be insulting.

And here i was going to say 'I've never called you paranoid', if you don't think it's insulting then why bother leaping down my throat over it? I am not your 'enemy' by default because are on opposite ends of the internet, everything i say does not have to come as a veiled attack.

Just to clarify: The point is not cannibals, cannibals are an example. Purge your mind of cannibals, let them exit the equation. When i start saying you eat people, you can take it as an insult. When i compare you to another culture with a unique mindset, you can only find offense if you object to that mindset. And judging from the passion in your posts, i'm guessing you don't object.

Need I point out again you implied we were stubborn with no provocation?

No, you can only point out that you have interpreted my words as an insult concerning your supposed stubborn nature. Given the way you do this at every opportunity, i'm starting to wonder where it's coming from.

If i had to guess, i'd say you've confused me with some Anti-gun lobbyists and have left the issue by the wayside in favor of scanning my posts for every sign of attack. My intention is not to belittle you or America, so don't go finding every possible slight and trying to refute it. There is no slight, there is no attack. I haven't said whether i give a flying hoot that you have guns or not, i just pointed out the amusing discrepancy in the debate. Every 'attack' in this exchange has originated with you 'calling me out' on it.

But if you find slight in the slightless, if you take insult at what i'm saying, then perhaps you could consider it is because... we think differently.

Now, take a step back. Read what i have written as i wrote it, calmly and as one equal to another. Understand that i am not here to beat you, defeat you or belittle you. Then compose a response on how you perceive my original premise. I know, and i think you know now, that you have taken my comments in an extremely wrong way. This is a discussion, not a fight.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

No It doesn't there are many many factors that cause the crime rate to go up and down so to say that it was the fault of one factor just because it went up without first eliminating the other factors is stupid. It's also a logical fallacy.

ok so it's illegal to own a gun in Japan, how come there is little to no gun violence in that country?

the same goes for many european countries where they have strict gun control OR it's illegal to own them?

I don't know and neither do you, you think it's because of gun control, and what do you have to back this up? Correlation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

well let's see illegal to own a gun or very strict gun control and little to no gun violence, anyone with a half a brain would say "yes i can see a direct link between the two"

if you don't see a direct link, i'm going to want what the hell you're smoking to think that

it's not a logical fallacy it's a proven fact. look at the rate of murder by gun to murder by edged weapons, it's basically 1:1, seems to be pretty logical to me

You know there's a direct correlation between ice cream sales rates and murder rates? They don't cause each other they just go up and down with the same variable: heat. But there is a correlation to them under your flawed logic we'd have to conclude that ice cream causes murder. No more Ben and Jerry's for you, we need to decrease the murder rate.

yeah and i can easily show a link between breast feeding and video games, the flaw in your logic is the same as the one with video games and violence you're using something the vast majority of the population does, in this case buying ice cream, and something not everyone does, commit murder.

however my logic is rather linear and airtight, strict gun control, lower rate of murder by guns, examples being Canada, the UK and Japan, to name just 3, there's tons more tho

You are the one who is failing to prove that gun control caused those drops.

look up the stats, i've posted many links to sites, including one to the Stats Canada site where you can see murder by firearms going down, with the exception of one year when a guy went on a murdering spree

so i've proven it already you're not bothering to read my posts or actually check my facts and figures

Oh and if criminals are always going to get guns why the hell are we keeping citizens from getting them?

really and if a criminal knows you are armed, they are more willing to shoot than if they believe you aren't, you know the whole survival thing

You ever heard of concealed weapons?

try pulling the concealed weapon before they shoot you, nice thinking tho, try my water gun experiment and see what happens

The MEDIA?! The same ones that report on every miserable school shooting ad naseum even though they don't happen as often as people getting struck by lightning? Sorry pal the media's only interested in ratings. If you can provide some statistics though that'd be great.

oh so you missed my whole point of personal experience, i've had friends that went thru muggings and robberies

Except that's not the case, I've met people who were saved by owning a gun.

and for every one of those there are about 20 - 30 more that got their ass shot and/or killed trying to be the hero

Source? And I mean a real source with numbers.
[/quote]

any stat on murder

honestly go down to your local police station and ask a cop about what i'm saying is truthful, their answers will line up with me, a gun is NOT protection it's a moth eaten safety blanket

What happens if I ask a cop and their answer contradicts yours? You seem to have a psychic ability to know what my local cop is going to say.[/quote]

ummm maybe cause i happen to know a few cops, army and security personnel that will gladly inform you of that fact

My Source: The National crime victimization survey
Source: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1615397&blobtype=pdf

estimated ~65,000 defensive gun uses per year. Cleverly you think that several times this number of people are injured or killed in failed self defense attempts. In the course of my gun related research I've read a lot of anti-gun propoganda, much of it lies or half truths, yet I've NEVER seen any research that claimed that hundreds of thousands of Americans are killed/injured attempting to use a gun in self defense. Please provide a source for your statement or take it back.

The fact that many people have used guns in self defense shows that criminals DON'T always get the drop on the good guy. Being a victim of crime isn't always inevitable. Good guys can fight back and win.

yes that's estimated, which means it's not fact, it's just a guess of something that could happen

the reason you don't see studies on it is because they don't call it "failed self defense attempt" they just call it murder. they don't really classify it as a failed self defense attempt

 

[Ultrajoe]

You're right I did jump down your throat rather quickly, it just really seemed like an underhanded insult. And yes I am paranoid I admit to that freely.

I used to think the NRA types were nuts myself but now I have a different opinion on gun control as you can see. And no I have no guns or any plans to get one.

While I am no fan of guns, i have no stance on gun control past 'some people really shouldn't be able to drive, let alone shoot'.

I suppose i can best explain my original statement with an example. Give me a few minutes to fetch it from an old thread here on the Escapist.

EDIT: It cannot be found, not with my searching ability anyway, it seems.

 

[minarri]

I have been assigned by my dear English teacher to scribble down an essay about (You guessed it...) School shootings in America.

We've been assaulted with numerous movies and articles about how America is the violent shizzle. But I'd personally like it if I head the opinions from the average, yet quite intelligent, schmoes from The Escapist.

Basically, my assignment goes like this:
"Write a report in which you describe and discuss school shootings in America. Why are American schools especially in the danger zone when it comes to being attacked with guns by crazy or angry students?"

What do you think?
Discuss, and give me some opinions. =)

We need a lot more school shootings. Only after thousands of children have died in schools will we learn to stop bullying, peer-pressure, and parents not actually caring for their kids. It sounds harsh, but most Americans only learn from their own mistakes and will second guess anyone trying to give them advice or help in raising their children.

Agreed. I wanted to say that but I was afraid people would hate me.

Don't worry, we do.

 

[thatstheguy]

I went in to the shop rented the pistol got some bullets, got a bisic explanation of how to fire/reload and started fireing at the target after I was done I went back to the store purchased a knife and then left.

Hey, at least knives are aloud at schools.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

cleverlymadeup have you seen the D.C. statistics? They don't exactly support your side
The gun ban started in 1977 notice the murder rate going up afterwards.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/wacrime.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/hmrt.htm

Although once again we each have to eliminate other factors for a fluctuating crime rate before we can conclude that the statistics prove anything.

you mean dc the gun murder capital of the united states? it's got a higher rate that even detroit

but by your logic then Canada, the UK, Ireland, Japan and many other countries, their murder rates by guns should stay the same if not go up but they don't

btw the first stat you posted of washington, that's washington state not dc

so here's the district of columbia's stats
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm

and they go up not down, the population of the district actually went down and the amount of murders more than doubled guess they call it the murder capital for a reason then