Science marches on and my inteleejens is insulted

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Saulkar

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"The advance of science does kill some romance. In 1950, it was still possible to think of a barely habitable Mars. There was still the possibility of canals, of liquid water, of a high civilization either alive or recently dead ? at least there was no definite scientific evidence to the contrary."
? Isaac Asimov, on A.E. van Vogt's Enchanted Village


Speculative Fiction often uses the real-world scientific knowledge that was actually available when it was written. There is nothing wrong with that, and indeed powering and justifying your world with Hard Science is, to many people, preferable to Applied Phlebotinum and Techno Babble. Basing your fictional science off of real world science is an excellent way to create Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

There's one problem with this approach, however: Science evolves. Five hundred years ago, some cultures thought that the sun revolved around the earth. One hundred years ago, there still were scientists who openly questioned the existence of atoms. And many of our current assumptions about Life, the Universe, and Everything will inevitably be questioned or disproven in the future. Therefore, when a scientific theory used widely in speculative fiction gets Jossed by new scientific discoveries, it's because Science Marches On.

And that's not to mention changes in scientific terminology, which are particularly jarring if a story set Twenty Minutes into the Future uses names that were widespread a few years ago, but are obsolete now, and are likely to remain so. For example, the word "atomic" has been mostly supplanted by "nuclear".

As a result, what seems like Did Not Do the Research in older fiction (in particular Space Does Not Work That Way and You Fail Biology) is actually this: They did do the research; it's just that said research is now outdated. Technology Marches On is a subtrope. Zeerust may be considered a sub-trope of this, as the old ideas of "futuristic" look dated now due to new advances in unforeseen directions. For instances where the change is in the historical record, see History Marches On. And when it's in society itself, see Society Marches On.

This can also include cases where writers predicted an advance in engineering that never happened for practical reasons, such as having our entire civilization powered by nuclear reactors by 1990, or having cities on the Moon in 2000. It's at least conceivable that such a thing could have happened in hindsight, but it would have been so expensive and unrewarding that it seems as absurd as things that have been actively contradicted by new scientific discoveries.




TvTropes Topic: SCIENCE MARCHES ON- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceMarchesOn




So in school today we where reading a play out loud and this is a sci-fi one written in the early fifties. Wait! Fifties?! You probably see where this is going. Since I missed two weeks of school due to a throat infection I was working on my missed assignments during this time but I clinged onto a few important details.

1. An inhabited alien planet is discovered smack dab between Mars and Jupiter.
2. It is 1/50th the size of Earth (about 254.84 Kilometers) but has an atmosphere of the same consistency and density.
3. And even though the story takes place in the year 2000 or so it was only discovered in the last couple of years despite constant radio emissions.
4. The aliens are intelligent and have a humanoid appearance.

Now even if you only have a rudimentary understanding of science there are several major issues with this that are blantantly obvious.

1. Being so far away from the sun outside of the goldylocks zone it would be frigging cold.
2. Being so small it would not have the gravity to support a dense atmosphere nor a strong enough magnetosphere to protect it from solar winds and stellar radiation.
3. Giving off radio communication waves it would have no doubt been discovered between the sixties and eighties easily.
4. While the asteroid belt is so sparse that your chances of being hit by one if you were to fly through it are next to nill, something the size of a moon would no doubt be struck far too many times over its life to hope to properly sustain life on its surface.

Some some lesser known facts.

1. Jupiter releases a metric fucktonne of radiation. While I do not know how far out it travels it would no doubt bombard the planet with deadly radiation since it cannot sustain a proper/if any magnetosphere.
2. Being so small there is a good chance that during its development that it would have been plucked out of orbit by either Jupiter or Mars and thus made a moon long before Earth supported life.

If life did develop on this planet it it would not be carbon based, nor have anything resembling humanoid inhabitants.

There are numerous other issues with a habitable planet so small existing where it is but I am not going to go out of my way and research but I must admit that for anybody in the last thirty years that would have been painful to read. Now the story itself is not tooooooo terribly bad, just scientificly ignorant.

Oh don't give me that look. There is no way in hell you have gone through life without something trivial insulting your intelligence. Hell thirty years from now Mass Effect and Deus Ex:HR are going to be laughing-stocks of the next generation for their scientific errors. Midnight at the Well of Souls was a fantastic book with some grand scientific truth but at the same time some of the science was so blantantly wrong it made you drool.

So enough about that when have you ever read something sci-fi written a LONG time ago that has already been proven scientifically false as science marches on?

P.S. Being not even close to an astronomer I have no doubt about scientific errors in my analysis but don't be a douche about it. Let me know and I will correct. Be a douche and I will ignore you.

EDIT: Yo! For those complaining that my inability to "just go with it" prevents me from enjoying media, so not true. The Mythbusters proved that I can still enjoy something that insults my intelligence.
 

Voulan

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Not necessarily a sci-fi, but the book I'm currently reading, White Noise which was written only in the 80's, had a big ranting session that TVs, microwaves and radios cause cancer or radiation sickness as though it was indisputable fact. Of course, some people still think this may be true, but the fact that in our sudden scientific boom during the past 20 years it still hasn't been conclusively proven made this book come across as somewhat laughable.

The whole "blood transfusion" method in Dracula is also now dated, considering that within the book three different people (with undoubtedly different blood types) successfully gave blood to one person without any rejection or illness. At the time the technology was very new, and blood types hadn't been discovered, and so it goes off without a hitch; in reality there would have been a potentially dangerous outcome.

And then, recently, anything that involves time travel. :(
 

Berethond

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Volan said:
The whole "blood transfusion" method in Dracula is also now dated, considering that within the book three different people (with undoubtedly different blood types) successfully gave blood to one person without any rejection or illness. At the time the technology was very new, and blood types hadn't been discovered, and so it goes off without a hitch; in reality there would have been a potentially dangerous outcome.
This is actually not as impossible as it seems. You can actually infuse someone with the 'wrong' blood type once or twice and it'll be okay, but they develop antibodies after that which make it increasingly dangerous. It also depends on the antibody count in each person's blood.
 

evilneko

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In Star Wars--and many other sci-fis--spacecraft (especially fighters and other small craft) move as if they're in atmosphere. In many others, Space Is An Ocean. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean] Some are both!
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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For Jupiter, don't count on getting to close to it. It's moons take a constant beating. Jupiter is a brown dwarf after all (reclassification pending). While it didn't have the oomph to go stellar, it still pumps out enough rads to ruin your weekend, if you only had one weekend left to live and decided to spend it on one of Jupiter's moons. Why would you, the view is crap. Except for that big ass storm.

Science is generally why I can not watch movies, at all. I suffer from "The Burden of Knowledge." I see something and say "No, that can't happen." Comic book/video game movies seem to be the exception, my brain reasons that comics are a different universe where our rules don't necessarily apply. Then its a simple matter of determining whether or not its entertaining or crap as hell.

Berethond said:
Volan said:
The whole "blood transfusion" method in Dracula is also now dated, considering that within the book three different people (with undoubtedly different blood types) successfully gave blood to one person without any rejection or illness. At the time the technology was very new, and blood types hadn't been discovered, and so it goes off without a hitch; in reality there would have been a potentially dangerous outcome.
This is actually not as impossible as it seems. You can actually infuse someone with the 'wrong' blood type once or twice and it'll be okay, but they develop antibodies after that which make it increasingly dangerous. It also depends on the antibody count in each person's blood.
Anaphylactic shock might have something to say about this.
 

Saulkar

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008Zulu said:
For Jupiter, don't count on getting to close to it. It's moons take a constant beating. Jupiter is a brown dwarf after all (reclassification pending). While it didn't have the oomph to go stellar, it still pumps out enough rads to ruin your weekend, if you only had one weekend left to live and decided to spend it on one of Jupiter's moons. Why would you, the view is crap. Except for that big ass storm.
Do you know how far the radiation travels outward? I am pretty sure but could be easily wrong that it could fry life on a moon sized planet without a magnetosphere halfway the distance to Mars from Jupiter.

CAPTCHA: Assured LLandhi - What is that, some kind of alien Jihad?
 

Xirema

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Berethond said:
Volan said:
The whole "blood transfusion" method in Dracula is also now dated, considering that within the book three different people (with undoubtedly different blood types) successfully gave blood to one person without any rejection or illness. At the time the technology was very new, and blood types hadn't been discovered, and so it goes off without a hitch; in reality there would have been a potentially dangerous outcome.
This is actually not as impossible as it seems. You can actually infuse someone with the 'wrong' blood type once or twice and it'll be okay, but they develop antibodies after that which make it increasingly dangerous. It also depends on the antibody count in each person's blood.
Not quite.

Basically, blood types A and B produce certain proteins (Blood type O people produce neither of those proteins), and if you aren't that blood type, then you develop a reaction to those proteins. So we get a few unusual results from trying to give one blood type to someone of a different type.

For instance:
- Blood type O can be given to anyone, because it possesses neither of those proteins, and therefore does not interfere with that person's blood
- Blood type AB can only be given to people who are type AB, but people who are type AB can receive blood from anyone, because both protein types are present in their normal blood.
- Blood type O people can only receive O blood, A people can receive A or O, B can receive B or O.

Anyways, on topic.....

Anything Lovecraft tends to have this happen when modern viewers read it. Much of lovecraft's works were basically xenophobia (and in some cases latent racism) packaged in the form of cosmic horror stories. That was part of what made them so good, but it also means that for more.... eh, let's go with the term "enlightened"..... readers that constitute the modern day, the effects tend to be lost a little. It also helped that in his time, our understanding of space was very different.
 

Lukeje

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Volan said:
Not necessarily a sci-fi, but the book I'm currently reading, White Noise which was written only in the 80's, had a big ranting session that TVs, microwaves and radios cause cancer or radiation sickness as though it was indisputable fact. Of course, some people still think this may be true, but the fact that in our sudden scientific boom during the past 20 years it still hasn't been conclusively proven made this book come across as somewhat laughable.
I remember that coming off as satirical (it's what the character believes, not necessarily what the author believes). I could be wrong though; I did read it a few years ago.
 

deathninja

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I'm doing research science at the minute (deep eutectic solvents), but suspension of disbelief is still a wonderful skill, it's the one thing that can make Sci-Fi timeless in the same way fantasy is.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Saulkar said:
So enough about that when have you ever read something sci-fi written a LONG time ago that has already been proven scientifically false as science marches on?
You haven't quite grasped the idea of science fiction, have you?

It's canonical to THEIR universe...not ours.

That's why Day of the Triffids doesn't mean plants can walk or talk, The Force (or Midichlorians) doesn't exist, and KLAATU VERADA NECKTIE doesn't stop the world from being destroyed by Necromancy or Robot Lasers.

I think we can quite safely say that 99% of all science fiction doesn't work with physics as we know it.

And I don't think most romance novels work under rational laws of probability or relationship dynamics either.
 

Eomega123

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My little brother was watching a cartoon where the villian sucks the intelligence ot of one of the character's brains, making him a genius and the other guy an idiot. I shouted "science doesn't work that way!" and stormed out of the room angrily.
 

Ilikemilkshake

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Saulkar said:
So enough about that when have you ever read something sci-fi written a LONG time ago that has already been proven scientifically false as science marches on?
The book Brave New World by Aldous Huxley is pretty much entirely based around technology that Huxley saw us having in the future. The main one being cloning, back then the research obviously hadnt been done, so his biology is all completely wrong.. but you kind of have to give it to him for making up an entire science and making it believable, it wasnt just technobabble, either way it still doesnt affect how good the book is.
Also even though his cloning isnt scientifically correct, he does predict alot of other relevant scientific and social advances which is pretty cool.
 

MightyRabbit

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Not all speculative sci-fi is guilty of this. Some, like the works of Asimov, are actually quite accurate in some of their reasonings under modern science and others were never intended to predict future technological advances but instead explore a potential future in which society, aided by science and technology developed in different ways (see Brave New World).
 

Saulkar

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Saulkar said:
So enough about that when have you ever read something sci-fi written a LONG time ago that has already been proven scientifically false as science marches on?
You haven't quite grasped the idea of science fiction, have you?

It's canonical to THEIR universe...not ours.
Yeah, uh that is blantantly obvious. The thing is the more you know about the topic and the more science advances the harder it is to suspend your belief. Today I am reading about engines and if I was watching a sci-fi show from the 1900s that said that a vaccum is produced during the power stroke in a four stroke engine my suspension of belief is out the window. Take a sci-fi show today that talks about modern physics theories that are unheard of by the general public. They could probably say anything no matter how wrong and we would accept it as is. Go 50 years in the future when they are relatively common topics of conversation and well understood by the general public then the scientific inaccuracy of days gone by are so glaring that it shatters your suspension of belief.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Saulkar said:
Yeah, uh that is blantantly obvious. The thing is the more you know about the topic and the more science advances the harder it is to suspend your belief.
Not really. You just dump the useless knowledge.

Teleportation was never feasible. Neither is - for example - leaping over bridges in a 1969 Dodge Charger.

Or shooting a barrel of oil to blow it up.

Or using a Mac to send a virus to an invading Mothership.

All you do is say "OK, so this works in this universe. Wow, wouldn't that be impressive if it could work in our universe? Hey, I wonder if I can bend our laws and make something similar work? Like say...accelerating neutrinos past the speed of light?"

But there's an app for that. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/113552-Large-Hadron-Collider-Theres-an-App-for-That]
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Saulkar said:
Do you know how far the radiation travels outward? I am pretty sure but could be easily wrong that it could fry life on a moon sized planet without a magnetosphere halfway the distance to Mars from Jupiter.

CAPTCHA: Assured LLandhi - What is that, some kind of alien Jihad?
The harshest rads throw out to about 300,000 kms, rads have been detected out as far as 10 million. Ceres (about 5 years to orbit the sun) is between Jupiter (about 11 years) and Mars, but its too far out to be hit by the radiation.



BTW/FYI: Captcha is a system that uses humans to read scanned text that a computer is unable to
read.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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I go to a school that has a very large and attractive science department. I have many friends who are brilliant at several different fields of science and are aspiring to be Doctors, Physicists etc. But Jesus, I've never known one of them being completely unable to grasp the concept of just letting it go. Not once has any of them ever become apoplectic with rage, or hell, just even slightly annoyed, because they have encountered something that bases it's ideas on old scientific theories that have since been proven false. Somehow, they manage to realise that this is not actually 'insulting their intelligence'.

Good God people. There's being a nerd, and then there's being an obsessive compulsive.
 

DBLT4P

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008Zulu said:
Science is generally why I can not watch movies, at all. I suffer from "The Burden of Knowledge." I see something and say "No, that can't happen." Comic book/video game movies seem to be the exception, my brain reasons that comics are a different universe where our rules don't necessarily apply. Then its a simple matter of determining whether or not its entertaining or crap as hell.
^this... laser guns, warp drives, teleportation, entire plantes that are a single city, entering and leaving atmospheres as though there is no resistance... but I've come to tolerate it in fantasy settings, it not like people get ticked off when a wizard in the dark ages casts a fireball, despite being equally implausible.
What really bothers me is "hollywood physics" and just plain people not doing their research. Im sick of people being blown off their feet when they get shot, and every flammable object exploding at the slightest disturbance like its filled with gallons of nitroglycerine. And in the vein of not doing research, other than people just not holding gun correctly etc, I remember a 'Bones' episode where the villan used an airburst grenade round, which can penetrate a thin wall (plywood, drywall) and then explode creating something akin to a shotgun blast (shrapnel doing all the damage) considering that a grenade launcher of this type is, while uncommon, issued by the US military, I refuse to believe that Booth, an Army Ranger wouldn't have at least thought of it before the geek squad looked it up.
 
Feb 28, 2008
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The whole "blood transfusion" method in Dracula is also now dated, considering that within the book three different people (with undoubtedly different blood types) successfully gave blood to one person without any rejection or illness. At the time the technology was very new, and blood types hadn't been discovered, and so it goes off without a hitch;
I blame that less on technological know-how than either a creative decision by Bram Stoker or a blinding oversight on his part; he makes other errors such as inconsistencies with eye colour and people's descriptions. Nevertheless, the power of his storytelling overrides minor things like this (although that doesn't stop them being amusing).
 

Quaxar

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008Zulu said:
BTW/FYI: Captcha is a system that uses humans to read scanned text that a computer is unable to
read.
Not all Captchas. But ours here is. I like to think I've transcribed vital parts of Newton's texts thousands of scientists rely on now but it is probably more like ancient circus pamphlets or whatever.

OT: I like my sci-fi absurd, nothing wrong with that. But I can present you with what some people in the 60s imagined people from the year 2000 would dance like.
It's from a short-lived East-Germany television series from the 60s called Raumpatroullie Orion if you're interested in the details.

<youtube=NJe-CdWsICY>

Actually... I'd love to see that dance. Beats the macarena.