Senator calls for gambling legistaion against CS:GO

[Saelune]

If it leads to the removal of keys, great. Ive got tons of crates Id love to open without having to pay over $2 each. Valve and those sites need to stop this bullshit.

That said, politicians and games don't mix well. Australia is also notably inept with dealing with gaming, so who knows if this will be a good or bad thing.

Keep in mind, Florida technically banned the internet in a rushed attempt to ban online gaming. This may go wrong if people rush it or aren't careful

Like I said, gaming and politics don't mix well. Valve and the gambling sites are in the wrong here though. So I just want to be optimistic that somehow something good may come of this. I know its not likely or guaranteed, but I can atleast hope for the good outcome.

 

[Elijin]

Casinos are different because you can go from Cash->Chips->Cash all inside the same establishment. The casino is directly responsible for the control of taking and giving you back actual, real money.

Likewise, if Valve had taken cash, gave a loot crate, and then gave you the option of selling the item from the crate and getting actual cash back, then that could be pretty reasonably considered to be the same as a casino.

But, what arbitrary articles people decide to sell or trade to others for the potential of profit doesn't fall under the same scope if they do it completely separate from the original goods provider.

By that logic, any and every instance in which you "Pay money for a thing, don't get exactly what you want, and then trade or sell it", it becomes gambling.

At that broad scope, the used games market could be considered gambling. You pay money for a game, but since you don't know that you'll like it or not, you try it out, hate it, and then either sell/trade it to someone else, or trade it back into the store to get credit to pick up another game. Same thing for used cars, and so on.

You can't reasonably hold the original provider of a good accountable for the end user's secondary activities with the good unless they are directly and expressly the controlling point for the transitions of both cash->good->cash. Otherwise a whole bunch of standard economic systems can be considered gambling.

As for "maybe the world would be better if children couldn't be manipulated into spending all their money on packs searching for rare cards they have no chance to get". Maybe the world would be a better place if parents actually raised and taught their kids and the kids can make rational, weighted decisions about whether the chance to get a card they want is worth it or not.

You oversimplified that to skip the part where they're not paying cash for a product then deciding they don't want it. They're paying cash to spin the wheel and see what results it spits out, of varying cash value. Complete with a built in marketplace which allows the sale of those goods for direct dollar equivalent, that Valve takes a cut from. Steam is running an online slot machine, complete with both charging for use of the machine, and taking a % from the results.

And shifting to talk of parenting also doesn't change that TCG and many 'lucky dip' style toys are totally gambling for children, but no one really cares or acknowledges it because they're toys. So they're insulated by the 'But those are for children, they cant have value' biases of the parts of the world who dictate the laws.

The issues around CSGO crates and TF2 boxes need to be handled, but very carefully. Or, even nicer, Valve could suffer the lash of legislation and finally kill the awful practices these are instead of bowing to legal restraints.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

So what would classifying CS:GO as gambling mean, exactly? Would they be required to post the number for the gambling addiction hotline somewhere, like we have at the end of commercials for casinos here in the states?

 

[Wrex Brogan]

*sigh* see, here's the problem. On one hand, the weird gambling/RNG bullshit coming out of CS:GO is pretty fucked up, and probably could be defined as gambling under some new legislation to curb that kind of shit (I legit know people who play it 10+ hours a day just to get more skins) and bring Valve to task for even introducing such a system.

On the other hand, while good ol' Xenephon is... probably one of the less-shitty Australian politicians (in the 'I hear far less shit about him than I do everyone else' sense), I still can't help shake the feeling he's going to fuck this up spectacularly and introduce legislation that doesn't actually address the problem, as is typical for how our government approaches video games. I mean, shit, hundreds of games get censored and banned on a near-monthly basis around here, I can't help but think they're gonna take the 'fuck 'em all!' approach to this.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

This is stupid. Another case of politicians overreacting without understanding the issue. CS GO is not a gambling game. All it takes is dropping the hammer on the gambling websites that deal with CS GO skins.

 

[Kerethos]

CS:GO has gambling mechanics in it. You pay 2$ for a chance at random items with a real monetary value, some of which is worth many, many times that initial 2$ fee. That is literally gambling and should be subject to regulation. Not that CS:GO in the only game guilty of this, in truth, quite exploitative mechanic.

This slot machine mechanic exists in several games to encourage people to pay in order to keep spinning the wheel until they "win" what they're after. Be it a certain card in a CCG or a certain cosmetic item in say Overwatch. But you're still paying money to play a digital slot machine. Which makes it very much exactly like gambling. Free skins and card packs are simply free spins.

Legislate away I say.

 

[Trunkage]

A link to the article for those interested in reading more:
http://www.pcgamer.com/an-australian-politician-wants-counter-strike-go-to-be-defined-as-gambling/

Goddammit Valve, now look where you've ended up. Because of your unwillingness to act we now have to get governments involved, all because you couldn't be assed to maintain a minimum of oversight. You brought this upon yourselves.

I honestly don't know why folks still place Valve on such a high pedestal in this day and age when they've had such a dismal track record over the past few years. "Praise Gaben" my ass.

On the plus side, this may spell the end of the skeevy crates/keys money scheme that's spreading like a plague in the industry.

I haven't played CS in years, so please bear with me when I ask, are these crates able to be obtained through normal play? Like how most games these days have the option to grind for content or just pay for it up front.

If even that's not the case, and Valve is essentially stamping a cover charge on them with no guaranteed outcome, then yeah, I get why this could be an issue.


I suppose idle minds do the devil's work when you're just running a service without any real games to develop (cough HL3 cough)!

 

[Rednog]

A link to the article for those interested in reading more:
http://www.pcgamer.com/an-australian-politician-wants-counter-strike-go-to-be-defined-as-gambling/

Goddammit Valve, now look where you've ended up. Because of your unwillingness to act we now have to get governments involved, all because you couldn't be assed to maintain a minimum of oversight. You brought this upon yourselves.

I honestly don't know why folks still place Valve on such a high pedestal in this day and age when they've had such a dismal track record over the past few years. "Praise Gaben" my ass.

On the plus side, this may spell the end of the skeevy crates/keys money scheme that's spreading like a plague in the industry.

I haven't played CS in years, so please bear with me when I ask, are these crates able to be obtained through normal play? Like how most games these days have the option to grind for content or just pay for it up front.

If even that's not the case, and Valve is essentially stamping a cover charge on them with no guaranteed outcome, then yeah, I get why this could be an issue.


I suppose idle minds do the devil's work when you're just running a service without any real games to develop (cough HL3 cough)!

Crates drop like candy from normal play, the kicker is that you can't open them unless you have a key, which is only obtained through someone purchasing it directly from valve for $2+ (prices vary a bit with taxes and region).

 

[Bilious Green_v1legacy]

It's worth noting that Nick Xenephon (the senator in question) has built his whole political career on an anti-gambling platform, so this is consistent with his established position on regulating other forms of online gambling, and not simply singling out CSGO cos vidyagames.

 

[Helter Skelter]

It's worth noting that Nick Xenephon (the senator in question) has built his whole political career on an anti-gambling platform, so this is consistent with his established position on regulating other forms of online gambling, and not simply singling out CSGO cos vidyagames.

It's probably also worth noting the severity of the gambling problem in Australia, which is really no joke. I can understand why simply adding a single layer of abstraction between a slot machine, and a video game would not thrill him or many in AU.

 

[Mutant1988]

A piece of legislation to kill the random crates would be nothing but good. That would force companies to sell products rather than charging money for chances ('This crate might have X or Y - Pay to find out') - Betting on a favourable outcome being a literal definition of gambling (If not the legal definition).

 

[Strazdas]

Well CS:GO IS a gambling game, so i support the senator in this case.

It will be a bad thing, as noted, Valve are not complicit nor do they encourage it. This is like to trying to declare a shop a gambling venue because someone made a bet for a snickers bar bought there. And no, it won't lead to the removal of anything.

Bad thing for who? Certainly not the consumers whose rights are being protected. Also Valve is certainly complicit, or are you claiming that somone without valves approval has created keys and crates system in CS:GO? because that system is legally gambling. If you pay money (purchase a key) for a chance game (crate unlock) it is classified as Gambling in many countries. The problem is, the laws never really got extended to videogames for some damn reason.

Right. This has been warned several times. If you let these things keep going on wild in gaming for too long, some politician will want to regulate gaming and screw it for everyone.

Regulating crate system as gambling is not screwing it for everyone, its finally doing the right thing.

As far as I know, you can't ever turn any of that into actual cash. You could potentially sell or trade it for steam wallet cash or other items of value in the steam ecosystem, but you'll never(outside of going to a third party) get real cash out of the deal.

Whats relevant is that those items have a value (to the user, expressed easily via the marketplace). Not whether or not you can cash in.

So what would classifying CS:GO as gambling mean, exactly? Would they be required to post the number for the gambling addiction hotline somewhere, like we have at the end of commercials for casinos here in the states?

Being classified as gambling means you need to follow gambling regulations, which include gambling tax. It would require a much stricter display of legality of the system than a videogame does. This may mean that valve may have to disclose some numbers such as sales of keys.

 

[Areloch]

As far as I know, you can't ever turn any of that into actual cash. You could potentially sell or trade it for steam wallet cash or other items of value in the steam ecosystem, but you'll never(outside of going to a third party) get real cash out of the deal.

Whats relevant is that those items have a value (to the user, expressed easily via the marketplace). Not whether or not you can cash in.

But everything has a value. If you can't turn it back into cash, then I disagree that it qualifies as gambling.

People go to the casino to try and win more money than what they walked in with. They don't play to try and win a bagel.

 

[Ftaghn To You Too]

Good! Valve's shitbag tactic of selling keys needs to stop, and if legislation is what is necessary to get companies to stop screwing over their customers, so be it. Valve is long overdue for a slapping for their consistently terrible business practices.

 

[Strazdas]

As far as I know, you can't ever turn any of that into actual cash. You could potentially sell or trade it for steam wallet cash or other items of value in the steam ecosystem, but you'll never(outside of going to a third party) get real cash out of the deal.

Whats relevant is that those items have a value (to the user, expressed easily via the marketplace). Not whether or not you can cash in.

But everything has a value. If you can't turn it back into cash, then I disagree that it qualifies as gambling.

People go to the casino to try and win more money than what they walked in with. They don't play to try and win a bagel.

You are paying money (purchasing a key) for a game of chance (opening a crate) that has a chance to provide you something of value. That is legally gambling.

Id argue that a lot of people go to casino to have fun, knowing full well they are going to loose money. See: Las Vegas trips.

 

[Rangaman]

This is stupid. Another case of politicians overreacting without understanding the issue. CS GO is not a gambling game. All it takes is dropping the hammer on the gambling websites that deal with CS GO skins.

The problem there is that, as proven, Valve cannot get of their fat fucking arses and crack down on that shit. The fact that these websites are still operating, even after Valve stated their opposition to Steam gambling, really says it all. Honestly, I was waiting for inevitability of government intervention, although I didn't actually expect the Australian government to be the first.

Also, the Australian government does know games exist. They've been banning far too many to not know of their existence.

 

[Areloch]

As far as I know, you can't ever turn any of that into actual cash. You could potentially sell or trade it for steam wallet cash or other items of value in the steam ecosystem, but you'll never(outside of going to a third party) get real cash out of the deal.

Whats relevant is that those items have a value (to the user, expressed easily via the marketplace). Not whether or not you can cash in.

But everything has a value. If you can't turn it back into cash, then I disagree that it qualifies as gambling.

People go to the casino to try and win more money than what they walked in with. They don't play to try and win a bagel.

You are paying money (purchasing a key) for a game of chance (opening a crate) that has a chance to provide you something of value. That is legally gambling.

Id argue that a lot of people go to casino to have fun, knowing full well they are going to loose money. See: Las Vegas trips.

Sure, but since everything has a value, that would mean that literally anything with a chance associated to an entry fee is gambling and - going off this thread - should face all the regulations and taxes gambling entails.

I would disagree with that. I don't feel that stuff like LootCrate, collectible card games or random drops or the like should be subject to gambling laws unless the exact same system offers a direct stuff-back-to-cash payout system like gambling establishments do.

 

[Elijin]

Sure, but since everything has a value, that would mean that literally anything with a chance associated to an entry fee is gambling and - going off this thread - should face all the regulations and taxes gambling entails.

I would disagree with that. I don't feel that stuff like LootCrate, collectible card games or random drops or the like should be subject to gambling laws unless the exact same system offers a direct stuff-back-to-cash payout system like gambling establishments do.

TCG and other lucky dip style merchandising and toys are gambling for children, essentially. But because its toys or niche products, no one seems to care about the behaviour it encourages.

Also LootCrate isn't gambling, its a blind buy. The contents of your crate aren't going to be different than mine, and there will be a static value of goods within that crate.

 

[Strazdas]

Sure, but since everything has a value, that would mean that literally anything with a chance associated to an entry fee is gambling and - going off this thread - should face all the regulations and taxes gambling entails.

I would disagree with that. I don't feel that stuff like LootCrate, collectible card games or random drops or the like should be subject to gambling laws unless the exact same system offers a direct stuff-back-to-cash payout system like gambling establishments do.

Not all value is easily expressed. It is in CS:GO case though. Though yes, there is a lot of gambling nowdays. Im not familiar with Loot Crate as i never use it but from what i understand it is not a lottery, it is buying a cat in a bad type of deal, where you pay before you know the contents of the "crate". There are no chance, everyone gets the same items though. And thats just a sale. A very poorly designed anticonsumer style of sale but still just a sale. Random drops are not gambling because you dont pay anything for it. Having a game monster having a chance to drop something is not applicable here. A big argument can be made is that you can roll the "Chance" in here as many times as you want as you own the game and therefore can replay that monster fight as much as you want at no additional cost (or just cheat the item in if its an offline game). I never thought about Collectible Card games but i suppose yes, the sales of cards are a type of gambling.

You may agree or disagree, but that is the current law in the western world. Its just not being applied to niche products because of "lol who cares about videogames" attitude. The legislators are busy trying to get online poker sites to adhere to gambling laws while the sites are doing everything in their power to pretend they arent gambling. There are bigger fish to fry i guess.

 

[Satinavian]

It is gambling and it is not wrong for gouvernments to get involved.
Why does gouvernments have gambing laws ?

- 1. Social sigma of gambling (not actually a reason to get involved, but the electorate often wants it)
- 2. Gambling Addiction (That is a serious problem around the world and it is a good thing to tackle it)
- 3. Taxes (Yes, Gambling, when allowed is usually taxed. Online games trying to avoid taxes don't really have my sympathy)
- 4. Accountability (At is easy to cheat customers in gambling. They can't control, if they really had their promised chances. Good to have some gouvernment oversight)

So, overall, yes, gouvernments should control online gamblin the same way they control normal gambling and for the same reasons. And developers know full well, what they do when they put in boxes and sell keys. The whole concept is just a foul scheme to get around gambling laws. "Oh, no, we totally don't sell random lots. Those are found in game and don't cost money. That we charche money to actually use the lots, is something completely different. We also don't need to reveal odds because the boxes are only ingame items found while playing and nothing we sell." Yeah, no.