Serial Killer Round 66: Cadaver Cavern- Cycle 2- Killer Executed!

[gritch]

@Beer: That was the list gritch gave. Why would he be on the list when supposedly he's the Spy? And you said it yourself, why would snekadid be on the list if he was just murdered? It's obvious the list he gave was pre-made. Think logically.

You make my head hurt. By your own logic if I were the Lawyer/Killer WHY would I include myself? Wouldn't it have been better to make sure neither were on the list?

This is my second SK I don't know how this lists work normally but I gave it to you exactly as Headsprouter gave it to me. I do admit I added the scratch-out over snekadid though. He was killed so I figured we could at least rule him out. I assume this is how GMs normally give lists - they don't eliminate names from it on their own they just give the entire list as a YES or NO to the question.

I just keep asking myself why you're doing this. If you're the Lawyer you'd buy yourself maybe a round? Maybe you've got no role and are just trying to help out the Killer? You'd get to eliminate the Spy quick then maybe the Lawyer got lucky with your first question and know who the Priest is? No chance of revival and the list is still got 10 people on it. That just seems way too risky.

I think I need to sleep on this some.

 

[FPLOON]

Spoiler: Accusations... Accusations Everywhere...

http://i.imgur.com/hOlrfRb.gif

Either we keep solving mysteries faster than the Scooby Doo gang or we're clearly setting ourselves up for something ironic...

Either way, I'm hungry as fuck right now...

Spoiler: Good thing I packed my lunch...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4usA1tS5ZNY/VSgdYu6-3UI/AAAAAAAABr4/vMw3E2X-YQE/w640-h360/pCsGXYc.jpg

 

[Aerosteam]

@gritch: No, that's not how they work. Don't you think it makes sense to not include dead players as well as the Spy the GM is messaging on the suspect list? And since you brought up your inexperience, that's probably why you provided a shoddy list.

And I'm doing this because I'm calling on your bullshit and hope no one would eat it up then vote for the wrong set of people.

@Caramel: I'm just making sure. How else was I going to receive "gritch gets executed and turns out to be innocent. Sorry Aero, you'll be certainly executed" other than badly?

 

[Fat Hippo]

Alright, Aerosteam makes a convincing argument. It might have been the wrong idea to kill the person who claimed to be the spy last game, but we can hardly deny these suspicions now.

I would like one small clarification though: Last game, when we received the list from FPLOON, we were told explicitly by him that the spy was on the suspect list. It turned out to be a lie of course, but at the time, we believed it (more or less). To which Aerosteam answered: "Actually, it's much better if the Spy is also a suspect, this means they're safe from being murdered for the most part." But now he's saying: "Don't you think it makes sense to not include dead players as well as the Spy the GM is messaging on the suspect list?" link [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/362.875416-Serial-Killer-Round-65-Bad-Rap-Cycle-2-Killer-was-executed?page=3]

So which is it? Doesn't really matter, cause there's still the whole issue with the time stamps, but I would like to know it precisely, if we are presenting all of our evidence.

If gritch is the spy: Sorry man.
If he isn't: Sorry man. *and there was much rejoicing*

 

[Aerosteam]

@Hippo: This time it's different. gritch is claiming to be the Spy AND giving a list.

Last round FPLOON provided the list, he was also the Spy but it was Armadox who posed as the role. If FPLOON posted the list and said the Spy's name wasn't on it (in that case it was Armadox), everyone would point out his name isn't there and know that he was the Spy.

So FPLOON had no choice but to include Armadox to the suspect list last round.

 

[Fat Hippo]

@Hippo: This time it's different. gritch is claiming to be the Spy AND giving a list.

Last round FPLOON provided the list, he was also the Spy but it was Armadox who posed as the role. If FPLOON posted the list and said the Spy's name wasn't on it (in that case it was Armadox), everyone would point out his name isn't there and know that he was the Spy.

Well, actually it was FPLOON posing as someone who was posing for the spy, while being the spy himself. Armadox only pretended to be the spy later.

My question is rather: Does the list the GM sends out contain the spy's name if he fits the criteria of the question? Because you presented the fact that gritch was on his own list as evidence against the list being real.

Note that I'm merely being a stickler for the rules. There's evidence aplenty, but I like to know all the rules when I play a game.

 

[Aerosteam]

@Hippo: It depends on who the GM is, but if it were me, no, I would only include the actual current potential suspects on the list to avoid confusion. Perhaps a little bit of the rules should be added to. I'll ask the Headsprouter what he thinks.

@Head: Yo! So let's say if I were the Spy and I ask you "Does the Killer have a letter A in their username?" would the list that you reply to me with include my name on it?

 

[Scars Unseen]

@Aerosteam: I'm new to the game, but as I understand the rules, he would, as your name fits the criteria of the query. I would assume that the Spy would be given raw data only, and then it's up to him or her to interpret it. In fact, I would have been more suspicious if gritch had left his name off the list since he qualifies for it. Not sure about the time stamp business, but that part at least doesn't fill me with suspicion.

Regardless of who the spy is, my suggestion for the next question the spy asks would be this: "Does the killer have a capital letter in his or her username?" If gritch is indeed the spy, this will cut the remaining suspect list in half. If he is not, it's only a 12/8 split, though realistically it's more like a 11/7 split since I don't think either gritch or Aerosteam are the killer. gritch wouldn't put himself on the list if he were, and Aerosteam would have been better off PMing his suspicions to someone else if he were. Either, of course, could be the lawyer.

 

[Aerosteam]

In fact, I would have been more suspicious if gritch had left his name off the list since he qualifies for it.

He can't leave his name off the list because he made a screen cap of the PM which was apparently sent to him anyway.

gritch also says that within the span of 30 minutes the GM sent the role message to everyone including the Killer and former Spy, then the Killer chooses the former Spy to be the Lawyer, then the former Spy accepts the offer, then the GM chooses the new Spy: gritch. Within the span of 30 minutes. If you know the game then you'd know nothing happens that fast here.

 

[Headsprouter]

@Aerosteam What's the point of putting the rats in the maze if I'm just gonna give 'em the cheese?

GMs should leave the killer and innocents to their own devices, so I'm just not going to answer.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Well to be fair, it wouldn't be that hard to make an alt account, PM yourself whatever you want, and then Photoshop someone else's name as the sender(or have the lawyer and killer PMing each other to do the same). Screencaps can be useful, but they shouldn't be taken 100% on faith.

 

[Aerosteam]

@Head: Well, there you have it, folks. ~

@Scars: Exactly. Now I've sincerely hope I've done my part on calling out gritch to everyone. :|

Y'know, I didn't even need to do this since I wasn't on the list he gave, but I'm so sure of this being a lie that I didn't want to keep quiet about it, even if in the end it'll leave myself open for execution.

 

[Demagogue]

So, I've been quiet about things over the weekend ponder, the accusations didn't matter to me because I had already voted. However, I wanted to chime in before Aerostream had everyone drinking his koolaid.

-snip timeline evidence-

Because of point 2, the roles were sent before 4:34 pm.
Why did you get the role PM half an hour after Headsprouter mentioned his blunder in the user group chat?​

While a 30 minute turn around is a rarity in this game, it isn't unheard of either. Lets recap what would have happened.

Roles went out at 4:31ish
Killer picked his lawyer at ???
Headsprouter informed lawyer at ???
Lawyer agrees at ???
Headsprouter picks new spy at 5:03

So five PMs (all of which are pretty simply yes/no type PMs) in 30 minutes. Again, rare but not unheard of lets look at another example.

Your accusation came in at POSTED: 7 June 2015 5:11 pm
Armadox commented at POSTED: 7 June 2015 5:27 pm
You replied to Arma at POSTED: 7 June 2015 5:34 pm
gritch defended himself at POSTED: 7 June 2015 5:34 pm
You re-asserted your claims at POSTED: 7 June 2015 5:40 pm

boom, a 30 minute window and easily five comments about the game, some which would be much more effort to reply than a simple "Yes I will be the lawyer" and from people in vastly different timezones as well.


So there is the doubt in your timeline evidence.

Lets carry on...

This list must be a mock up.
Why would Headsprouter give you a suspect list with YOU in it?​

According to the rules, the GM isn't here to do our jobs for us. The spy can ask a yes or no question and according to the screenshot you provided from gritch, the question he ask was "Is the killer an American as specified by their user account?"

Technically, Headsprouter should have simply answered yes or no, not provided a list, which is suspicious but considering his newness to the role that can be possibly explained. My bad, apparently Headsprouter is supposed to provide a list back, which he did following the rules, listing ALL of the people who met the criteria.

On to the question itself, there are 20 of us this game. Based on the info I took at 7AM EST this morning when I started working on this here is the layout of all of us.
Username Country
1. Aerosteam UK
2. Fat_Hippo Switzerland
3. Caramel Frappe USA
4. gritch USA
5. snekadid USA
6. FPLOON USA
7. DoPo Unknown
8. Twintix Sweden
9. Armadox USA
10. Demagogue Canada
11. Dying_Jester USA
12. altnameJag USA
13. kingofkumquats USA
14. username sucks USA
15. Scars Unseen Japan
16. the silence Germany
17. Shazskywalker Australia
18. RaNDM G USA
19. erttheking USA
20. BeerTent Canada


Which means the only RIGHT answer to that question would be:

Yes:
3. Caramel Frappe USA
4. gritch USA
5. snekadid USA
6. FPLOON USA
9. Armadox USA
11. Dying_Jester USA
12. altnameJag USA
13. kingofkumquats USA
14. username sucks USA
18. RaNDM G USA
19. erttheking USA

or No:
1. Aerosteam UK
2. Fat_Hippo Switzerland
7. DoPo Unknown
8. Twintix Sweden
10. Demagogue Canada
15. Scars Unseen Japan
16. the silence Germany
17. Shazskywalker Australia
20. BeerTent Canada

So going back to your question, why would Headsprouter put gritch on the list? Answer: Because gritch is American.

There is the outright destruction of your other point

Let us continue...

@gritch: There was no "reshuffle" of the roles, Headsprouter can confirm that.

No, he can't... you know this, and you're banking on the new people not knowing it.

Let's say your hypothetical "reshuffle" was true. I'm willing to bet no one who got a role before it will say they got a message saying they no longer had the role afterwards.

So what you're asking is that the person who was the original spy, and turned down the role to become the lawyer to out themselves (thus ensuring their death) to prove your point. Yeah I wonder why no one is willing to do that.

@gritch: You're basing your innocence on a 1 : 19 probability here, buddy.

Even then, give up the Spy role for the Lawyer? C'mon.

The chance to be the lawyer over being the spy? Hell yes! How many times has the lawyer been killed? None since I started playing three rounds ago. How many times has the spy been killed? two of three rounds. Plus there is the fact that being the bad guy in a game like this is WAAAY more fun I would think. Your statement is nothing more than an opinion (just like mine) that you are trying to present as fact.


Moving on...

@Beer: That was the list gritch gave. Why would he be on the list when supposedly he's the Spy? And you said it yourself, why would snekadid be on the list if he was just murdered? It's obvious the list he gave was pre-made. Think logically.

Because Headsprouter's job is not to generate a list of suspects for us. It is to answer YES or NO to the questions. Snekadid being dead is irrelevant, he was still an American


Moving on...

@Head: Well, there you have it, folks. ~

THIS

@Aerosteam What's the point of putting the rats in the maze if I'm just gonna give 'em the cheese?

GMs should leave the killer and innocents to their own devices, so I'm just not going to answer.

Is not an admission of anything from Headsprouter.

@Scars: Exactly. Now I've sincerely hope I've done my part on calling out gritch to everyone. :|

Y'know, I didn't even need to do this since I wasn't on the list he gave, but I'm so sure of this being a lie that I didn't want to keep quiet about it, even if in the end it'll leave myself open for execution.

No, no you didn't need to do it since you weren't on the list... but the killer is, and the lawyer's job is to help the killer. And well this masterpiece of yours sure has done that... you have everyone doubting everything now.


Final Thoughts
@Caramel: I'm sorry... I voted to kill you this round. It was a mistake, I hope you can forgive me. (I didn't really have a good target in mind so I picked you)
@Our Arbiter: Please execute Aerostream... I believe when you do, we'll see that he is the Lawyer.
@Aerostream: It was a nice try... and you had me doubting at the beginning, but with a clear mind, you haven't really provided any evidence, you've provided facts (true facts at that) but you've twisted the dialog in order to protect the killer as best you can.
@gritch: Good work, unfortunately you'll probably die next round to the killer, or us gumshoes. Hopefully the Priest is still alive to bring you back afterwards.

Edit:
drops the mic

Edit Edit:
I have some ideas for who the killer may be as well, but nothing other than coincidental accusations, and considering I just blew away Aerostream's posts doing that it would be a little silly to do it myself. Once we have more evidence I'll chime in again.

More Edits: Fixing the error I made that Scars Unseen pointed out. (Thanks again)

 

[Scars Unseen]

@Demagogue: Small point of contention. Yes, a list is provided to Spy questions as per the rules listed on page 1:

Example: "Does the Killer have a letter 'a' in their username?"
IF YES: The GM replies with a list of everyone who does have a letter 'a' in their username.
IF NO: The GM replies with a list of everyone who does not have a letter 'a' in their username.

Otherwise, interesting points.

 

[Scars Unseen]

So to help shed some light on this whole dilemma, I have decided to turn to otherworldly sources for divine guidance.

...thanks...

 

[Demagogue]

@Demagogue: Small point of contention. Yes, a list is provided to Spy questions as per the rules listed on page 1:

Example: "Does the Killer have a letter 'a' in their username?"
IF YES: The GM replies with a list of everyone who does have a letter 'a' in their username.
IF NO: The GM replies with a list of everyone who does not have a letter 'a' in their username.

Otherwise, interesting points.

I sit corrected, I always was under the impression the List was given by the Spy and the GM was simply saying Yes/No to it.

 

[gritch]

I know this would be sort of odd but I wonder if we could call for a recasting of the votes?

I cast my vote shortly after I sent out the list (sorry @Caramel Frappe you were on the top of the list so I picked you). @Demagogue said he did something similar. For people new to SK it's not obvious you should wait until closer to the deadline to cast your vote until after some discussion has been had (though I won't make that mistake again). If I had waited until the end of this discussion I certainly would've voted differently.

@Headsprouter: I'd only suggest you extend the voting time by another day and allow anyone to recast any votes they might have already been sent. If they don't change their reply within the extended deadline their previous vote stands.

It's not in the rules but given the extraordinary debate this first round it'd be a shame if it came down to the game's mechanics going against what their real opinions are.

 

[Silence]

... Now I voted the wrong person. Good job.

 

[Armadox]

I cast my vote moments after voting was opened because I wasn't sure if I was going to have time..

I.. stand by my rash decision...

to vote for myself.

 

[Demagogue]

I know this would be sort of odd but I wonder if we could call for a recasting of the votes?

I cast my vote shortly after I sent out the list (sorry @Caramel Frappe you were on the top of the list so I picked you). @Demagogue said he did something similar. For people new to SK it's not obvious you should wait until closer to the deadline to cast your vote until after some discussion has been had (though I won't make that mistake again). If I had waited until the end of this discussion I certainly would've voted differently.

@Headsprouter: I'd only suggest you extend the voting time by another day and allow anyone to recast any votes they might have already been sent. If they don't change their reply within the extended deadline their previous vote stands.

It's not in the rules but given the extraordinary debate this first round it'd be a shame if it came down to the game's mechanics going against what their real opinions are.

Nah, don't worry about it gritch, there isn't a need for a re-cast. It is part of the factors we choose by voting early. On the one hand we potentially find out more evidence after the fact to change our vote, but on the other hand, we don't accidentally miss the voting period by waiting too long. These debates seem to always happen, most of the time after I've already voted personally, I just keep the data in mind for my next vote.