Seriously? You can almost win an award for THIS?!

[end_boss]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graveyard_%28video_game%29

i could make that game in one day

But you didn't.

actually... i went ahead and did it. just made a bunch of buildings with simple textures, added heavy fog effects, and turned the lighting down low. boom, the graveyard now known as "the city" HEY! i knocked off one of my peers! I'M AN INDIE DEVELOPER ALREADY!

lol What I mean is that if you had thought of it first, you would be the one getting nominated.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

. And why can't violence be art? why can't making mass slaughter and wanton destruction fun be considered artistic?

What you are referring to is "Ultraviolence" and it's a very touchy, tricky subject. So far i'd say that movies are really the only medium that can truly convey ultraviolence in a truly meaningful and artistic way. In video games, it comes across as being cheap and crass. I think this is because the character being manipulated by the player always reflects the player's mind. It's not like Pulp Fiction where sudden, brutal scenes are the result of unstable characters that serve to make a poignant sociological statement about the casual nature of violence. It's about the player fulfilling childish fantasies of mass homicide and slaughter in the most ridiculous, over the top way possible. They're not thinking about the ramifications of this (how many times have you thought about the last civilian you shot for his horse in Red Dead?) they're just thinking about how funny it was that someone just fell off a cliff after a nearby explosion. The only way you could get any meaningful satire and artistic poignancy out of it would be to have a third party examine the player as they play the game, and that would be breaking the fourth wall.

Incidentally some games have had a go at mindless ultraviolence before. See: Splatterhouse. The game was a commercial flop and no-one saw it for an artistic sentiment. Hell, no-one even saw it was a celebration of grindhouse culture. They saw it as childish. As you quoted yahtzee, i would point you to his video about Splatterhouse in which he starts off by saying that while you may enjoy the blood and gore to start with, it starts to get tiresome and you realise how childish and shallow it is once your childhood giddyness about gore and violence are satiated.

i still do enjoy blood and gore, but it often depends on the game as to how much i care about civilians. see, in Red Dead, i never shot a civilian for his/her horse. In Fable, i never killed someone for his/her money. I guess it depends on the characterization as to whether or not i will simply murder everything in sight. In Red Dead, civilians interacted with me and sometimes just said hello, in Fable, i would be greeted and followed wherever i went. in Prototype, "people" just look like screaming fleshy blobs ripe for the slashing.

see, in dead rising the blood and gore i always let flow freely from the edges of my chainsaws. in Prototype, i would make it a point to cut through swaths of civilians for no reason other than to see their top halves seperated from their bottom halves. in saints row, i hit people without regret and laugh hilariously as they fly off into the sky.

it depends on how the violence seems to be utilized as to whether or not it should be considered childish and eventually boring, right? Splatterhouse just tried too hard to be "over the top", but Saints Row? Prototype? Just Cause 2? Dead Rising 2? Painkiller? a lot of those are favorites of those looking for a good time. they're not very thoughtful or realistic, but then again, is thoughtfulness or realism really worth it? should we lose our "fun" games in favor of arthouse games that may or may not be up their asses in messages?

i still think "fun" games should be considered art. maybe they don't make you reassess your values in life like in Mass Effect 2 or maybe they don't make you wonder about the consequences of your actions like in Fallout, (both games i also love by the way) but there should be room in art for thoughtless fun, and i think that's the niche videogames should fill. fun can be an art form, i'm sure of it.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graveyard_%28video_game%29

i could make that game in one day

But you didn't.

actually... i went ahead and did it. just made a bunch of buildings with simple textures, added heavy fog effects, and turned the lighting down low. boom, the graveyard now known as "the city" HEY! i knocked off one of my peers! I'M AN INDIE DEVELOPER ALREADY!

lol What I mean is that if you had thought of it first, you would be the one getting nominated.

probably, but i would never feel good about myself for the rest of my life

 

[Halo Fanboy]

This lack of attention is exactly why indie titles recieve these awards; because those with the patience for it will see something truly remarkable. It'll touch them on a much deeper level than it does with people who've been emotionally deadened by all the flashy effects and HELL YEAH BRO culture that has been spawned from franchises like Gears of War. It's all about subtle statements and asking questions that will affect and almost disturb the player. It's about the things you see, you hear and you feel. What do you think it's trying to tell you? What is the metaphor behind a frail old woman walking to the place of the dead, only to keel over with little to no warning, left there to rest unceremoniously? I think you could do with watching some Lynchian films.

How does it touch people on a deeper level or disturb the player on a greater level than say Pac-Man? At least Pac-Man has more complex mechanics and more room to interpret it's secret meanings. What is the metaphor behind the glutonous creature being chased in a never ending labyrinth by meta physisical manifestations of the undead?

And you hardly have to drag good games through the mud (emotionally deadening) in order to dress up how you like games with simplisistic mechanics.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Sounds dull and pretentious to me.

Ah pretentious that's the word I was looking for...

 

[Azaraxzealot]

i have yet to play a GOOD 3d indie game, or at least one that i would indeed enjoy for more than 2 minutes before i got bored and went back to Red Dead Redemption or Saints Row 2.

snip

i guess so. ive been pretty spoiled by action games for so long that if more than 10 seconds in a game doesnt go by without something fun and awesome going on then i get bored

probably why i would pick Prototype or Crackdown over GTA 4 or Limbo. And why can't violence be art? why can't making mass slaughter and wanton destruction fun be considered artistic?

its like Yahtzee once said in his Painkiller review about how murdering dudes CAN be an art form.

No one is saying that games like that can't be art. They are simply saying that even though you don't like indie games, they can, and in most cases are, more artistic than most AAA games on the market today.

that's very true, but i think we should combine the two, have AAA-polish applied to indie artistic direction. imagine what could come of that?

 

[viranimus]

Well, I think the crux here is comparable to films. Which is sort of like comparing anything from Michael Bay to a film like Pi or May. Tale of Tales is trying to push that line of what we consider games and the notion of games being art. With such you cant look at them with the same eye. If the industry is to mature we need to start expanding the ideas of what our medium is and we need to embrace the idea that games are art. Much as was said in a recent ep of Extra credits, we are at a turning point and if we do not expand the medium games are likely to be relegated to inane and immature playthings. So it is time that games start tapping into emotions other than aggression, angst, anger etc and start focusing on the rest of the emotions that make up the human condition. If you do not like the type of games that is understandable, but please understand that much like alot of indie films, indie games have the capacity to tap into emotions and subjects that the largest bulk of the game playing community would consider to be boring.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle to growth right now is the word Games, and it is time to expand the notion of what our medium is.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

You can have a amazing art and amazing gameplay just look at ICO <3

 

[TheIr0nMike]

It's an artistic game. Don't ***** if it's something you won't play in the first place.

 

[Vibhor]

Ahh, a console gamer.
Look at you console gamer. Pathetic creature of cheap plastic. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine like the PC?

Console wars aside, indie are not made like AAA.
They do not cater a specific audience, they are just made to be made.
Wanna hear about a good indie game that is actually fun than a piece of "art"?
Try Mount&Blade Warband and Amnesia The Dark Descent.
And perhaps you didn't know, there is a limit of what can be achieved through dedication and free time rather then money.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Don't forget about all the Bejeweled clones and the games about launching things out of canons.
Also don't forget that indie developers don't have the budgets of the AAA guys so huge in depth first or 3rd person isn't exactly an option. for most of 'em.

 

[Gralian]

Splatterhouse just tried too hard to be "over the top", but Saints Row? Prototype? Just Cause 2? Dead Rising 2? Painkiller? a lot of those are favorites of those looking for a good time.

Actually, this was the 'artistic' point behind splatterhouse. That the unwilling protagonist, Rick, is actually enjoying the slaughter of all the monsters. The mask is constantly telling him it's 'fun' and he should just give in and accept it. This constant begrudging is both an artistic statement on the mentality of Rick and how the player himself actually drives fun and amusement from gore and dismemberment. However, if the game itself is bad because of mechanics or bugs, then the point will fail to land, which is a shame.

they're not very thoughtful or realistic, but then again, is thoughtfulness or realism really worth it? should we lose our "fun" games in favor of arthouse games that may or may not be up their asses in messages?

Not every game claims to be artistic. You're decrying The Graveyard for being innovative and worthy of winning an award for the sole merit of its artistic value. Then you're trying to proclaim all things shouldn't be art out of a kneejerk reaction that something created solely for purposes of art make it somehow superior to those created solely for fun and amusement. This is not the case. However, the competition for those created purely for fun is far, far tougher because that's where all the AAA titles are made. The arthouse niche is slim indeed, so when something is made and gets noticed, it tends to be relatively successful in the eyes of the movers and shakers of the industry that hand out awards for things like this. How many "The Graveyards" are there for every "Halo" "Gears of War" and "Call of Duty" clones out there? And that's only shooters; if you explore all genres, you'll find this is the case across the board.

i still think "fun" games should be considered art. maybe they don't make you reassess your values in life like in Mass Effect 2 or maybe they don't make you wonder about the consequences of your actions like in Fallout, (both games i also love by the way) but there should be room in art for thoughtless fun, and i think that's the niche videogames should fill. fun can be an art form, i'm sure of it.

Art is the act of giving meaning to the meaningless.

As a follower of existentialist philosophy, i am very much obliged to accept and understand your opinion. Anything at all can be art, given the correct context. Who are we to determine what makes something artistic and what does not? It's all in the eye of the beholder and anything has the power to be a form of human expression. It would make me a philistine to say that something completely mindless and entertaining shirks all denotations of art, as what we consider art will always be subjective - and it does make me happy to see that you do hold a viewpoint so vehemently. If we tried to look at it from a more objective viewpoint, however, we can clearly see that there are some objective principles to what makes something more 'artistic' than something else and such recognitions are what makes certain works eligible for an award. Otherwise, The Graveyard would never have received the recognition that it did.

I don't think, however, it's up to me or you to decide what the specific criteria is to make something 'high art' or 'more artistic' than other works.

 

[wammnebu]

How have you not heard of Minecraft?

do not bring up minecraft in the same sentence with this shit

minecraft is an example of an indie game that makes up for its lack of funds with great ideas. I would point out that while new ideas are a good thing, the ideas themselves need to be good.

This is the problem with trying to push games as being art, rather than being enjoyable and entertaining, you get crap like this, with people giving a tedious concept presented with purple prose.

 

[Patton662]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graveyard_%28video_game%29

i could make that game in one day and it gets nominated for an innovation award? what's so innovative about making an old lady walk through a graveyard?!

You mean you could create all the assets, environments, textures, rig and animate the character, script all the events, collisions etc. Also create all the sounds and music in a single day ! Damn, I must be really slow because it takes me a good 2 to 4 weeks to build, texture and rig a single character.

Also, art is subjective.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

-snip-

I think you missed the point, so let's just break it down here:

1. The game is a blur between game and art. I'd even go as far to say that it is interactive art and not a game as we percieve it to be. It's meant to convey a message, not nessesarily be fun. This is a huge step for our industry in that direction which would be why it's being nominated.

2. The Path. The worst thing you can do in that game is find the end as quickly as possible. You actually score the lowest possible score, despite that being your entire objective. the point is to disobey your directive and go off the patht o discover the world, which leads you into the minds of each young girl and what their "wolf" is. Very interesting and very artistic.

3. League of Legends ring a bell? RIOT is an indie developer and they just made one of the biggest hits in the free to play MMO scene. Breath of Death VII is another excellent example of an indie developer using what they have to make a brilliantly interesting game. The problem you seem to be having is that indie games are indie because they don't get much publication. There are tons of indie games out there that cover tons of different content but you have to go looking for them because most fly under the radar, hence being indie. Saying that none of the games genres you like are never blockbuster sleeper titles in the hands of five devs is assinine. The fact is that most shooters/over the shoulder games take a crap load of money to make to a particular standard these days, so they can't relaly pull it off and still be classified as "Indie".

 

[Halo Fanboy]

Well, I think the crux here is comparable to films. Which is sort of like comparing anything from Michael Bay to a film like Pi or May. Tale of Tales is trying to push that line of what we consider games and the notion of games being art. With such you cant look at them with the same eye. If the industry is to mature we need to start expanding the ideas of what our medium is and we need to embrace the idea that games are art. Much as was said in a recent ep of Extra credits, we are at a turning point and if we do not expand the medium games are likely to be relegated to inane and immature playthings. So it is time that games start tapping into emotions other than aggression, angst, anger etc and start focusing on the rest of the emotions that make up the human condition. If you do not like the type of games that is understandable, but please understand that much like alot of indie films, indie games have the capacity to tap into emotions and subjects that the largest bulk of the game playing community would consider to be boring.

Perhaps the biggest hurdle to growth right now is the word Games, and it is time to expand the notion of what our medium is.

And the way they push the envelope of what games can be by making a simplistic game with bad graphics and a lame song? I don't they should be above criticism just because of what they stand for (and I don't even agree with what they stand for.)

 

[Gralian]

[How does it touch people on a deeper level or disturb the player on a greater level than say Pac-Man? At least Pac-Man has more complex mechanics...

Ah, i see you're trying to quote Extra Credits on their piece about narrative mechanics. I don't think Pac-Man's mechanics are at all complex. Certainly no more complex than The Graveyard. All you have to control Pac-Man is the directional buttons / stick. All you have to control the old woman in The Graveyard is directional controls. See the similarity? You can argue Pac-Man's mechanics are greater with the threat of death while eating pellets, but here's the kicker; the old woman in The Graveyard also has the threat of death. Only, it could happen at any time. Without warning. This to me is what makes the "narrative mechanics" superior to that of Pac-Man.

What is the metaphor behind the glutonous creature being chased in a never ending labyrinth by meta physisical manifestations of the undead?

There's definitely something to be said about the metaphor of life in Pac-Man. We spend our whole lives chasing pellets (earning money, or eating food to stay alive, even) only to be inevitably caught by Death - as represented by the ghosts. It's a very morbid and accurate representation of human futility and the futility of life in general, as entropy will always triumph.

Look at you console gamer. Pathetic creature of cheap plastic. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine like the PC?

L...L-LOOK AT YOU, HACKER...

 

[ShakyFiend]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Graveyard_%28video_game%29

i could make that game in one day and it gets nominated for an innovation award? what's so innovative about making an old lady walk through a graveyard?!

are the standards for indie gaming so low that they would nearly award THIS with an award? Seriously.

are there ANY indie games out there that blur the lines between AAA and indie? because so far i dont see any innovation in the indie scene. it seems to be just a bunch of sidescrollers and mario knockoffs.

i have yet to play a GOOD 3d indie game, or at least one that i would indeed enjoy for more than 2 minutes before i got bored and went back to Red Dead Redemption or Saints Row 2.

i really want to know if there are any 3D 3rd-person indie sandbox games out there... it seems like they are incapable of that (or even just good 3rd person in general).

and before you all go "SUPER MEAT BOY AND LIMBO!" on me, i played (and hated) both those games because i have no degree of patience for platformers, which it seems like every indie game is a variation thereof (or a Contra/Asteroids knockoff)

EDIT: Forgot about Minecraft and Mods. Because Minecraft is the only exception and everything else that's not a 2d sidescroller, run-n-gun, space shooter game is a mod.

Jesus Christ, if I was going to found an award for massive fuckwhits the first prize would go to people who judge something vehemently and angrily without actually experiencing it for themselves. And before you go all I-wasnt-at-the-holocaust-but-I-know-that-was-bad on my ass im talking about experiences meant as entertainment. (books/games/films etc.)

And now onto the meat in this quite ragey sandwich.

'The Graveyard' is one of the most sophisticated and insightful games you have ever had the honour of mentioning. It manages to say a lot about death, and deserves awards purely for allowing you to play as an old dying woman, an experience as far as I know unique in gaming culture.

But it does more than just be original, the gameplay is excellently designed and forces you to feel the physical troubles the woman has, it has one of the best songs iv ever heard on a game on it (one of the best songs iv ever heard come to think of it) and it was in fucking german! (my point being that even in translation it was awesome.

Not to mention the closing option your given at the end which is nothing short of genius,

Spoiler: Oh and it looks gorgeous, impressively so for an indie game

All in all a fantastically original and unique (if slightly pretentious, which I suppose is inevitable) game, although I agree with Root of Evil here that its debatable whether it constitutes a game or not.

 

[coldfrog]

i have yet to play a GOOD 3d indie game, or at least one that i would indeed enjoy for more than 2 minutes before i got bored and went back to Red Dead Redemption or Saints Row 2.

snip

i guess so. ive been pretty spoiled by action games for so long that if more than 10 seconds in a game doesnt go by without something fun and awesome going on then i get bored

probably why i would pick Prototype or Crackdown over GTA 4 or Limbo. And why can't violence be art? why can't making mass slaughter and wanton destruction fun be considered artistic?

its like Yahtzee once said in his Painkiller review about how murdering dudes CAN be an art form.

No one is saying that games like that can't be art. They are simply saying that even though you don't like indie games, they can, and in most cases are, more artistic than most AAA games on the market today.

that's very true, but i think we should combine the two, have AAA-polish applied to indie artistic direction. imagine what could come of that?

Yes, except you really can't. Small companies in general just plain don't have the time for that kind of thing. Even Amnesia, which I would consider the most polished 3D indie game I've played yet, shows a lack of such in a few elements, including some of the level design and even to an extent in the controls. I'd still consider it an utterly amazing game, but it's not a AAA release and it never will be.

I will say this though, I have a theory as to why the best AAA games tend to be sandbox in nature. With any AAA game, you have a pretty large team of people working on it. When that happens, it's pretty hard for any one person (or even a small group of people) to have a specific vision for anything and enact it within the confines of what should be happening. It all comes together through work spread out over large areas, and no one person can personally oversee each and every item of the game, so certain ideas or concepts may get spread thin or even removed completely from any original vision that may have existed.

Now consider the sandbox game. In fact, take GTA 3. There's an overarching storyline there, yes. But think about all those side-stories and small missions, like the dog-food factory guy, or some of the gang wars. I have little doubt that each of these types of missions were developed by a couple people who, instead of having to worry about how their big missions fit in with the big picture, could just say "Lets have some fun!" Most likely they are given some tools and an area or concept, and they just set them loose on the world. This is more likely to give people creative power over their own ideas, and when that happens, more interesting risks are likely to take place. The sandbox here works from both ends: the player's AND the creator's, and this can help make more creative ideas shine through. To me, that's one big factor of what makes a great game - when the creativity and originality of someone's idea shines through.

For the record, I thought "The Graveyard" was kind of interesting, but I really felt "The Path" was their masterpiece. The emotions from the girls befalling these tragic events, which I felt left JUST enough to your imagination that you aren't left confused, but have to fill in the horrible blanks your own way, I felt were made even stronger due to the fact that you have total control over them. The only thing I disliked was how you got ranked at the end. It felt very tacked on, as if they were trying to make people experience these things just for the points.