Sex, Violence, and the Wii

[Ericb]

Here's to the comming generation of video game playing leaders.

Hear, hear.

We're just going to have to live with this nonsense until video games stop being the cool thing to hate.

If we just live with it and do absolutely nothing about it, we'll have to live with it for a long, long time.

Perhaps I'm wrong...but can anyone name a real "casual" game with a plot? I can't.

Grim Fandango, Knights of the Old Republic, Final Fantasy VI, etc.

Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game] states that casual games "are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games."

None of those games could ever be described as simple by any stretch of the word. If you can play through Grim Fandango with no commitment whatsoever, I praise your natural talent for insane puzzle solving.

 

[TheRundownRabbit]

3 words that should but cant be put together

 

[Strangeite]

I'm sorry...what? Maybe my definition of "casual" is different that yours, but WTF? Casual? Really? And a Final Fantasy game? You know people in their 40's / 50's who could pick up and play these games when they came out? Sorry, I'm not gonna be too argumentative but I just don't see it.

You aren't being argumentative and I admit that I am speaking from a position of ignorance. I used to play lots of video games but I don't anymore. So I really don't know what is the common meaning of a "casual game".

The reason why I quit the hobby with the exception of the "causal" Wii game, Civilization, etc. is that I became bored.

I enjoy adult games with a real plot, excellent graphics and sophisticated game play, but I don't enjoy gratuitous violence. I recognize the fact that they are enjoyed by millions and I am happy for those that do enjoy the GTA or whatever, but it isn't my cup of tea.

I do wish that there were games aimed at adults that didn't involve shooting a person in the head. If video games want to become as respected as movies, then there needs to exist as wide a range of genres. With a range as wide as Full Metal Jacket, to Dumb and Dumber, to Wall-E, to Pierrot Le Fou.

 

[Strangeite]

Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game] states that casual games "are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games."

None of those games could ever be described as simple by any stretch of the word. If you can play through Grim Fandango with no commitment whatsoever, I praise your natural talent for insane puzzle solving.

I am not trying to be difficult, because again, I am speaking from a position of ignorance, so most of the people posting here would consider Legend of Zelda, and yes, even Animal Crossing as "hardcore games" because both have sophisticated underlying rules and a deep commitment?

 

[Ushario]

by introducing the baby boomers to video games hopefully they wont be as ignorant about whats being said in the media. Here's to the comming generation of video game playing leaders.

Or it might just turn them into nintendo fanboys, saying things like: you don't see murder simulators like this on the wii.

Oh but you do, Madworld comes to mind.

 

[randommaster]

Here's to the comming generation of video game playing leaders.

Hear, hear.

We're just going to have to live with this nonsense until video games stop being the cool thing to hate.

If we just live with it and do absolutely nothing about it, we'll have to live with it for a long, long time.

Even if you get the majority of the public to support games, there will still be old crotchety grumps who refuse to see games as anything but tools to teach kids how to murder others. I'm not saying that we can't improve the image of video games, but that ther will be people who oppose them the same way that there were/are people who opposed jazz, rock, radio, television, and so on and so forth. I probably could have said that more clearly the first time, though.

Perhaps I'm wrong...but can anyone name a real "casual" game with a plot? I can't.

Grim Fandango, Knights of the Old Republic, Final Fantasy VI, etc.

Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual_game] states that casual games "are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games."

None of those games could ever be described as simple by any stretch of the word. If you can play through Grim Fandango with no commitment whatsoever, I praise your natural talent for insane puzzle solving.

Tetris is probably one of the most casual games ever, but only the most hardcore players try to max out the score. The Halo games are complex, but I'm definitely a casual Halo player. The difference between hardcore and casual is based more around how much you want to succeed at a game. It's about going beyond simply playing the game. You can play MW2 multiplayer casually, but it stops being casual when you start caring about how well you do.

Casual gamers usually play simple games because they don't want to invest a lot of time into the game. This results in them gravitating towards games like Peggle and Wii Sport, which are easy to learn how to play, rather than MW2 or WOW, which take a long time to learn. It's not the game, but the gamer, that defines "hardcore."

 

[Ericb]

Casual gamers usually play simple games because they don't want to invest a lot of time into the game. This results in them gravitating towards games like Peggle and Wii Sport, which are easy to learn how to play, rather than MW2 or WOW, which take a long time to learn. It's not the game, but the gamer, that defines "hardcore."

But to pin those definitions solely on the intent of the player is to entirely ignore the very design elements implemented in the examples you used yourself.

Although the term "casual" only makes sense in contrast to the "hardcore" one, a dichotomy I dislike for many reasons.

Anyway, there was a design philosophy back in the day that the best games (before the whole casual/hardcore nearsighted thing came into play) were actually easy to learn, but hard to master. To a certain extent, I still agree with that line of thinking.

I am not trying to be difficult, because again, I am speaking from a position of ignorance, so most of the people posting here would consider Legend of Zelda, and yes, even Animal Crossing as "hardcore games" because both have sophisticated underlying rules and a deep commitment?

Animal Crossing does not require a deep commitment to get anywhere crucial plotwise because it does not start with a end goal to begin with. Even though it is not as simple or short as Peggle, it definitely does lets you just do things at your own pace and leisure with no end in sight.

Not only Legend of Zelda does as is filled with plot-driven fetch-quests, it almost invariably have a very well defined and established end goal: Save the princess/defeat the bad guy/save the world. They usually make sure of that by having the game world and plot show you that things are bad or about to get that way in pretty blatant ways.

All that talk got me thinking about open-ended gameplay compared with its linear counterpart. I'll have a look into that.

 

[Liquid Paradox]

it's Wii Sports, but with killing.

I could be wrong- I hope I am- but I don't think we should be flying the flag of victory just yet.

Am I the only one who thinks that would be epic? "Now for he nintendo Wii: Wii Colosseum! Do you have what it takes to survive in the pit? Take your Mii's into the arena and prepare for a grueling, gladiator-style death match! Improve your Mii's gladiator score by killing your friends with the Wii's famous motion sensor technology! For blood, and Glory!"

As awesome as this would be (you know it would be ), it would likely be a step backwards in the defense of gaming, giving haters something new to ***** about.

anyway, back on topic...

After reading the article, I must say that you have a very positive way to look at the Wii (and the influx of casual gamers), however, I Wonder if the opposite will happen? Will the new Baby-boomer gamers gain respect for the hobby, or will they simply turn casual gaming into a weapon, using it as an example that "games shouldnt have to be about sex, drugs and violence? After all, they might think, they have a great time playing the non-violent stuff... perhaps 'Hardcore' gamers are more affected by their gaming then we thought?"

something to think about, anyway

 

[Woodsey]

But surely the lack of violent Wii games (in comparison to the other 3 platforms) will mean that even if they do own one, they'll still see it as something completely different to what us genocidal maniacs play?

 

[Sejine]

But even if we all go out and convert ten baby-boomers to being "casual gamers" we still have the problem that people who play th Wii don't see themselves as gamers, my mam plays Wii and DS, yet she still thinks MW:COD2 crossed the line, she asked me to turn off Prototype more than once. And I mean I'm 25...

See, this is where the problem is. Even if you get Grandma to play the Wii, there's still the fact that there are the violent games out there. Playing non-violent games doesn't mean that those people will stop screaming about the violence in video games today.

While Shamus said the GTA IV/Wii Sports comparison, those are 2 utterly different games, no question. We have a Wii at our house (I'm still a minor. >.<), and of course Wii Sports. My mom is insanely into Wii Bowling, but when she goes on the real course there's no surprise that she can't bowl for jack s**t. But she still won't let me buy MW2 or something along those lines when I'm going to get my PS3. I've explained to her that "video games don't make you a killer" speech and all of that, but it's still the fact that it's simulated violence. In her case, violence is violence. But for some reason, she'll let me watch CSI, Bones, all that cop drama stuff. I'd suppose it's the medium and the interactive part of it. *shrugs*

Different circumstances mean different situations.

 

[Biscotti187]

maybe PC gaming is just as viable as the Wii, most people already own a desktop or laptop so getting them download some gameplay simpler games i.e. Portal, competitive tetris, some adventure games, etc. may be easier and more convenient than simply having them spend the extra money on a console

 

[QUINTIX]

I just don't like the term "casual gaming"; that some how there is this niche separating "gamers" and "non-gamers" like there is some niche separating "music lovers" and non "music lovers." (O.K. you are not involved in music; or movies; or books. They are passive things. Let me get further into my argument).

How did some of you readers get into, say, first person shooters? I will bet that almost none of you played the original Quake or Doom when they first came out.

My first FPS was Descent, and I didn't use a joystick or mouse. I played it entirely with the keyboard. It wasn't even possible to strafe and turn at the same time with the default key setup. Even for those who played FPS's since the Wolfenstein 3D, Doom is controlled very differently than Quake. Quake is controlled very differently than the modern ASDW/Mouse FPS. You can't even aim vertically in the original Quake without holding down some button or changing an obscure variable in the in-game console.

The first FPS that I played with "modern controls" was Halo for the PC. Yes, Halo. A couple of years after that I was already enjoying the likes of Half-Life 2 and F.E.A.R. (worst backronym EVAR). Today I don't play FPS all that often. I am unemployed and my desktop is woefully underpowered. But when I got back to playing Painkiller after months of not gaming, I was able to play it and enjoy it. I wasn't dying all the time.

Unfortunately, few modern FPS's do a good job at introducing the mechanics of that particular "extreme" gengre, and the fact that such games are typically played with a console joypad instead of a straightforward mouse doesn't help. But despite the common misconceptions, your Granddad can play Team Fortress 2, and be good at it.

 

[Arfreid]

The media talks about games and gaming because these are a novelty and something they aknowledge that it's worth covering (even though some of them don't even have a clue at what they are saying).

If you go 10 years back in time and check the reach of gaming as a whole, you'll notice that it wasn't much, not even worth noticing, and it was just the 'geeks/nerds/dorks' past-time.

Now its a social phenomenom, more and more kids make their parents buy videogames for them and the parents themselves don't know about games and they don't care because they believe its going to be too dificult for them. And so the media can twist their words when it comes to the next sensationalist notice and make them 'worried' or 'defensive' for their children (and they should be!) but it's because the media fed them malinformation.

If the wii can turn them and the older generations into gamers, even if they are casual, they will just understand that gaming is like playing with a toy. An AWESOME toy.

 

[soundoflights]

As long as the Wii stays in its own little corner of the world its fine by me. Just hope that no one else follows Nintendo in to casual land because if they start to massively outnumber us gaming as we know it will disappear.

 

[Aurgelmir]

Would also like add that before we had games as the scapegoat we did indeed have movies and before that Comics. Comics was considered a reason for children turning into delinquents, and not of course poor parenting...

Point is people will always need something to blame when the legendary Shit hits the notorious fan. As said in the article games are exotic, so when a "news" channel as Fox "news" gets wind of there being alien side boob, or violence in a game they will attack it.
Why they create such controversy around this I do not know. They also seem to think children are going to play this no matter what... Well would anyone of us let our 7 year old watch Aliens or Predator? So why let this kid play Aliens VS Predator?

In the end it is up to the individual grown up to decide what she or he wants to play, and at the same time what hers or his child shouldn't play.

PS: When I was younger and living at home I was not allowed to play violent games while my little brother was awake. Simple enough solution (why is it so hard for Fox "news" to figure out the same?)

 

[Otterpoet]

Of course, I'm sure a new Leisure Suit Larry for the Wii is lurking in our future. God only knows what the motion control will be used for

 

[randommaster]

Casual gamers usually play simple games because they don't want to invest a lot of time into the game. This results in them gravitating towards games like Peggle and Wii Sport, which are easy to learn how to play, rather than MW2 or WOW, which take a long time to learn. It's not the game, but the gamer, that defines "hardcore."

But to pin those definitions solely on the intent of the player is to entirely ignore the very design elements implemented in the examples you used yourself.

Although the term "casual" only makes sense in contrast to the "hardcore" one, a dichotomy I dislike for many reasons.

Anyway, there was a design philosophy back in the day that the best games (before the whole casual/hardcore nearsighted thing came into play) were actually easy to learn, but hard to master. To a certain extent, I still agree with that line of thinking.

A game can be targeted at the casual or hardcore audience and be designed with its primary audience in mind. A game targeted at the hardcore audience can have complex controls or advanced strategies that require more than a brief foray into the game to master. Developers know that games targeted at the hardcore crowd can have more complex controls because the hardcore players will be willing to invest more time learning hw to learn all the nuances of the game. Games targeted at the casual crowd generally have simple controlls because developers know that the intended audience will have much less patience when it comes to learning how to play the game.

As for the whole "simple to play, hard to master" thing, the simplicity can vary greatly. Street Fighter and Starcraft are vary complex, but the basic premise is easy to understand. "You punch the other guy" or "destroy the enemy's base" are easy to grasp, but there is a learning curve to those games when you play the single player. You need to know how to do several different things (attack, block, special moves) and when to do them (timing, correct situations). That takes time to learn. Compare to Peggle, wher even in the later stages, you are doing the same thing you have always done, it's just less obvious how you're supposed to accomplish your goal. (Still bouncing the ball off the pegs, but the angles will be different)

 

[Ericb]

I just don't like the term "casual gaming"; that some how there is this niche separating "gamers" and "non-gamers" like there is some niche separating "music lovers" and non "music lovers."

Same here. And what the self-appointed "hardcore" still don't understand is that this separation will only keep videogames from becoming interactive expression devices and remain being a glorified power trip machine.

Of course, I'm sure a new Leisure Suit Larry for the Wii is lurking in our future. God only knows what the motion control will be used for

Well, don't give'em ideas! :double shudder:

Hey, ramdommaster, you pretty much explained what I said all over again. So... thanks. =]

But Starcraft is WAY more complex than Street Fighter from the get-go.

The amount of time you take to simply learn all that the three species in Starcraft can do far surpasses the time you'd take to learn the moves of all the characters in Street Fighter II (or any of the gazillion sequels).

 

[GonzoGamer]

by introducing the baby boomers to video games hopefully they wont be as ignorant about whats being said in the media. Here's to the comming generation of video game playing leaders.

Or it might just turn them into nintendo fanboys, saying things like: you don't see murder simulators like this on the wii.

Oh but you do, Madworld comes to mind.

That's still not going to stop some ignoramuses.
One of my first (and favorite) Wii game is Godfather Blackhand and that quite literally IS a murder/mob-execution simulator. And even though it's one of the Wii's best early games, the console still gets the kiddy toy rep.

 

[Silva]

Shamus, Shamus, Shamus. You're preaching to the converted.

Send this to Michael Atkinson. THEN we might see some sanity.