Fistful of Ebola said:
They should want to create complex, varied, interesting characters but no there is no stricture that reads they must do that. Reasonable advocacy for a change in social mores is not about legislating what people have to be feeling, but rather a discussion on why they should different.
I get the idea that some people most likely want to, and indeed do deviate from the general trends if one looks into the indie market or beyond the Triple A industry to find it. But I refer to the general idea of more of a company/consumer notion. If what you sell actually sells well, and when you try to deviate, it doesn't sell as well, what incentive is there to push for sweeping changes? The larger industry has shown many times they are willing to stick with something that worked before when it comes to gameplay, policies, visuals and the like, why would story tropes and character designs not be expected to fall into the same trap? Especially when not all games should want complex or varied characters and plot, and deep characterization is largely ignored in the vast majority of game types to begin with.
Fistful of Ebola said:
No one believes that Pac-Man would be better if he were a homosexual leather-daddy or Miss Pac-Man were transitioning from male-to-female. It's not a matter of capturing the same demographic power as the white heterosexual male, but rather arguing that other groups are severely underrepresented.
Ok, I can see that as a fair argument to make, especially in regards to variety and complex experiences. But keep in mind, there is difference between aiming for that demographic and rehashing what has sold well before that merely appeals more to one demographic over the other.
Fistful of Ebola said:
You'll notice that this discussion doesn't really persist as much in movies and especially literature. Despite both having the same demographic concerns they regularly manage to churn out works that represent women, gays and minorities very well. Even if people have grievances against specific works in those other mediums no is talking about them in the same way they do mediums more closely related to so-called "nerd culture".
Gaming also gets more criticism for violence then film. Given the tone many discussions take, it takes away from your case here when much of it is blaming games for some larger fault in society or culture itself.
Beyond that, games have a hard time representing people at all. The most well known characters are often soulless avatars for the player that look iconic but are not actually people. That the few that are decently characterized are in products designed towards the largest buying audience is not too surprising. After all, the cost to make a game in capital and technical skill is much higher and demand for compelling story and deep characters is much lower. Look at some recent games that have had good characters. Most of them are not only good male characters, but good characters all around. I can understand the frustration that many are underrepresented, but between limited capital to make a game, low demand for story/rich characters in general, and the need to be as appealing as possible for the target demographic, it is perfectly understandable why. And understanding that does help give insight in how to change things I believe.
Fistful of Ebola said:
At some point you have to step back and consider if the criticism is fair, gaming is attempting to solidify itself as a valid art-form and to do that it needs to shed the image of being a boys club filled with immature brats. Otherwise we risk going the way of comic books, which have been around for the better part of a century and struggle with establishing themselves as a legitimate art form.
I have no issue with fair criticism and everything you mentioned thus far is fair, albeit not presented the best way I think.
I will raise a counter point that gaming is not some uniform movement, but a huge collective of individuals, most I am sure have no real desire to be high art in the same way most movies have no real desire to be Citizen Cain. Gaming is an entertainment media, and while many within will push to explore it as an art, many more treat it as an industry and make games for the sake of profit. The entire reason the Triple A market is so big is because they have gotten good at getting profit after all.
The main issue I hear gamers trying tackle in relation to art is not that they are (that is pretty obvious), but rather that they have the same potential to be great art the way film or literature has shown it does. I think the indie scene and kickstarters are probably the best place to look if you seek that the same way I wouldn't suggest people looking at summer big name release schedule for high art in movies. If you are browsing popcorn flicks, hard to be surprised when they aren't great works of art or inclusionary masterpieces.
Fistful of Ebola said:
Sure, but games are art and one of the things that art does well is push the boundaries of acceptable social mores and raise a discussion about them. Art can be subversive, but video games don't really seem to be doing that, at all. It's not just a matter of AAA games not doing that, and I would argue that your explanation doesn't make sense because even Hollywood movies have managed to be subversive, but also that the indie community isn't doing it either. That's not too terrible, gaming is a young and in many ways immature medium.
I think you may need to look deeper into indie games, though I get the general point made. Still, keep in mind that how the industry and hobby behaves is often shaped by how the culture reacts to it. Games are already called child murder simulators and promoters of violence against women, do you think many people want to try to look at that and push boundaries? Especially when such an undertaking might require a couple million dollars to do properly?
We have had attempts in gaming to get people to think. Spec-Ops: the line I think tried that and succeeded in some way to force players to look at violence in games and the way a game instructs you to do things. But those are not often commercial successes or are not pulled off well.
It is a bit much to expect too much of that though when the majority of the larger industry is treating games like popcorn flicks rather then concept art, most smaller attempts are overlooked and underfunded and society itself attacks the media enough as it is. The comparison to Hollywood is also a little unfair as movies have an easier time recouping invested money, so more risks can be taken, as well as how it being a respected art form, can more easily (relatively anyways) gain the needed money and team to make the art in the first place.
Fistful of Ebola said:
I don't understand this mindset that we're asking people to feel bad, no one is asking them to feel bad. Video games cause shitstorms anyway, the violence in video games scapegoat has been thrown around for decades and Medal of Honor caused a significant controversy when it was originally announce the OpFor faction was going to be named "The Taliban". Yes, they backed down in the latter case but the shitstorm persisted until launch. Even if we make the case that the AAA industry won't take a risk like that, and we're in agreement there, why isn't the indie community even trying?
Probably because of the points I raised before. There is a higher skill level required to make a game then a movie or book. You can, with just the tools, still make either of the later and have it in a state that others can look at, regardless how crappy it may be pulled off. With games, you can't. You need to know how to make them, or at least make use of something that does, as well as how to share that with other people. A game requires to at the very least be programed right to be functional. Granted, flash game makers and the like make even this pretty low now, and I would not be surprised if the sort of games you seek exist in flash form. But that is a problem, isn't it? If you include even flash games, you literally have more games to look at then you have hours in your life to spend looking into them, and that number only grows.
Fistful of Ebola said:
You should read what I was responding to; a question was asked about how you target a
Again, I'm going to note the fallacy in responding to me without reading what I was responding to. The problem is that publishers seem to be taking the wrong cues from the data they have, they aren't designing their products around appealing to the male 18-35 demographic as much as they're designing their products around shutting other demographics out. If you're a woman trying to get into gaming it can be very difficult; there's a severe shortage of characters who appeal to women in gaming and most female characters are designed around the idea of being eye-candy for men. Minorities exist as stereotypical mooks to be shot by the white protagonist, and even when they occupy positions of authority it's often as the right-hand to a white man. Gays and lesbians are similarly represented as stereotypes with the men often being shown as ineffectual, weak and the latter simply doesn't exist in gaming. Instead we have bisexual women depicted as decadent sluts who exist as eye-candy for men.
You seemed to have abandoned a point there at the start.
They aren't shutting them out any more then Metroid or Tomb Raider or Beyond good and evil shuts me out. They are not appealing to me as much, but that is it. Furthermore, you describe the popcorn flicks of movies I described before. And you forgot to mention that the male protagonists are soulless voids, or emo prettyboys. I never disagreed that many games are lazy with character design and tropes, merely that it was a sign of racism or sexism or that it was done to exclude anyone. The only people who don't play are those who do not wish to. That is their choice, and their reasons for it are their own, but it is no different then me not wanting to watch one of the hundreds of RomComs where the male lead is a stupid lovable jackass with a heart of gold and the female lead is a carefree spirit hidden behind a businesslike attitude. They don't appeal to me as much as they could does not mean they exclude me.
Fistful of Ebola said:
This paragraph has nothing to do with anything I've said.
It is a reminder of perspective and a reminder that games are voluntarily bought. They are a product made to fill an entertainment demand, most often in a way that maximizes profit by appealing to the largest responsive demographic. As such, by design, they will never exclude anyone who can pay, merely appeal less to them for whatever individual reasons that would affect the would-be player's choice to buy. Even skimpy dressed female characters and an all brown army of mooks does not exclude anyone from playing any more then I am excluded from a restaurant if I dislike what is on the menu. It is not exclusion when I make the decision, it is opting out.
Fistful of Ebola said:
If being catered to isn't a privilege then what is it?
Getting an advantage or special treatment. This was why I said in the following line that it could be argued that paying customers have privilege, though I didn't go into detail there because I couldn't decide if I wanted to treat that as a "no shit" sort of thing or a "which doesn't anything regarding race/sex" thing
Fistful of Ebola said:
*groans* No, I'm not saying they should guilty about it I'm saying that they should acknowledge the privilege of being catered to. You're the one here claiming that developers and publishers designing games solely for the white male isn't an example of white male privilege. There seems to be a recurring thread among people who deny privilege, the assumption seems to be that unless something is overtly sexist/racist it can't be privilege. That's the only way I can explain why people keep throwing out the old "it's not like video games can't be sold to women/minorities" canard.
The issue I have is that you mistake my impact on games as a customer and my general demographic's impact as setters of the trends as a privilege relating to race or sex. I understand how you came to that conclusion, but I have tried to explain the flaw within it several times now. Customers set trends by what they purchase and what they demand. When you try to present that as a privilege, I am torn how to reply. On one hand, yes, the people who pay to support the product will of course be given an advantage when it comes to how the product is shaped as the company wants money. Yet on the other, it feels like privilege is being used as the wrong word merely because of it usual tie in the "white man's guilt" fallacy, especially true since you seem to use it that way.
Fistful of Ebola said:
Yes, women are privileged in that they are allowed to wear certain clothing without social stigma attached. Women have even managed to break into the clothing style of men without much stigma attached while acceptable clothing for men has remained fairly static over the last several decades.
Are they privileged here because they are women, or because as the people buying the product, they shaped the demand and the supply then used to meet it? I use this example to try to highlight what I have as an issue with you saying I have a privilege because I am white when I have the privilege (I hate using the word so, but I'll use it as per your application) because I pay and thus shape the product by helping shape demand. Doesn't even get into how as an individual I only have a very small impact to shape demand and how the industry can misunderstand that demand or habits that handicap them when trying to understand demand and everything else.
Fistful of Ebola said:
Which is it? First you say that women are more likely to buy dresses because of cultural influence but now you're claiming it's a matter of individual choices. Individual choice doesn't factor into it, for a large part of history a man being seen in a dress would be enough to get him a severe beating, perhaps even murdered. It's the same with video games, it wasn't considered an acceptable thing for women to play video games so they tended not to.
Culture shapes individuals. Tradition, religion, laws and social norms all affect what people will do as individuals along general trends. The individual still has the choice, but will most often take into account how society will react to that choice. You can argue about how a choice with an obvious downside is not a choice, but it still is. A choice with no real repercussion either way, such as other demographics buying games is even more revealing of individual decision.
You make a good point about women. I wont say they were unaccepted to play games the same way a man in a dress was seen as unacceptable, but rather the hobby was seen as more male centric at the very start, so that would weigh into choice if they wanted to participate or not (maybe earning the label of tomboy for doing it?). As such though, they forfeited the right to influence demand, leading to what we have now. What is worth noting though is that women still played games and still had a large impact on the demand (and as a result, the supply) of games, but along genre lines. There are games and even full genres with vast majority women players, and as a result they meet the demand more. Oddly enough though, puzzle games, facebook games and sim games, areas dominated by female players, do absolutely nothing to make better characterizations or deeper plots, nor do they try to represent people very much (exception of the sims brand of games. They seem treat everyone as gibberish speaking possible bisexuals though, so take of that what you will)
Fistful of Ebola said:
So asking to be treated the same as someone else is privilege now? Are you also one of those people who think that gay marriage is all about gays asking for "special rights"?
Gay marriage is not a right, as no marriage is a "right" as far as I am aware. The right stems from the legal ability to form a contract of that nature with another consenting adult and receive government sponsorship/perks for it. That I think everyone should have equal access to.
As for my remark here, you are not asking they be treated like everyone else, you are asking for special consideration, that is the problem. Everyone is being treated based on what they can provide as customers. Some demographics provide a hell of a lot more then others, so of course they would be represented more in order to appeal to them. When you talk about how some demographics are not represented as well as you'd like or as often (none are, no, not even the white heterosexual male is represented very well in most games. Shallow stereotype tropes everywhere.), you have to acknowledge the reasons why. Saying games should include more representation of women or deeper characters of minorities as specific to minorities or women alone comes off as requesting special consideration for them solely due to them being minorities or women.
Fistful of Ebola said:
You're guaranteed to find a character you can relate to and games designed to cater to you, as per your own admission.
I paid dearly over my 2+ decades of investing into games for the slightly increased (not guaranteed) chance to find a character I relate to or game designed to fit my taste... Sadly though, I am still waiting for one catered to me specifically, as I explained before about how general trends in demand shape what is supplied, and as an individual customer, I only have so much power to shape that demand in what I do or do not buy. Oddly enough though, the character I probably related to the most off the top of my head was Jade from Beyond good and evil. Relating to a character is not gender nor race locked after all. And the game I think closest fits what I want tends to be split along genre, though Dark Souls seems closest in recent memory. Not sure how that relates to the topic, just thought I would mention.
I will reiterate though, relating to a character is not dependent to the character's race or gender at all. Just as with books and movies, people can relate to characters of other genders or races, if the character itself has aspects they can relate to as people. The main issue here is that games rarely have characters people can relate to beyond shallowly (such as, say, gender, race, or preference to trope). I am not guaranteed anything, merely given a higher likelihood as a result of investing into gaming, supporting the ones I want to succeed and not the ones I wish to not.