Sexism; Or The Turning of Tables

[Joshimodo]

Here's the response.

Please enlighten me as to what genuine benefits men have in society now?

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist, responded to

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
Bullshit, through-and-through. Especially when you take the fear of sexism backlash.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.
Also untrue, though this swings both ways and depends entirely on the job in question.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.
Again, see above.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.
Again, see above. Possibly even more one-sided towards men in this day and age.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .
Finally, one that is actually true. That said, should any sexual harassment ensue, women can sue, get the male fired, etc. Men get no such luxury.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
Except the stereotypical view of both genders denounces that, as men are slobbish and women are neat and tidy.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.
Yet odds of any sexual encounter being claimed as sexual abuse, rape etc. are relatively high, almost infinitely so compared to females.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
Males are taught to be aggressive and territorial, vastly increasing chances of conflict in the same scenario.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Except your masculinity will be called into question for your entire life regardless of any choice you make.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
But if I have children and am separated, males are given fuck all rights regardless of whether they're better parents.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.
As are single mothers.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.
Yep, this one is true.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
But any deviation will be blown out of proportion. One porn film rental? 6-month long scandal, removal from office, public outcry, etc.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
Career choices, not gender.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
Again, entirely depends on industry.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.
Err, what? Entirely dependant on family. Null point.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.
As a child (and an adult) we get an almost infinite variety of clothing. By infinite, I mean blue, brown, black, shirt or t-shirt.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong. Plus, females typically have better grades, especially in high school.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
True, but I doubt many women encounter this.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.
Yes, badly, mostly criminals, liars and idiots, as opposed to women being portrayed relatively well. Men are demonised in media.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.
Yes it will.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.
Yes it will. Ever heard of boy racers, or midlife crises?

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
But your masculinity certainly will be.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?
Not as openly, but it does exist. What is worse, though, is getting that same kind of comment from being accused of simply LOOKING at other women.

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.
Because our clothes consist of fuck all.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.
Because we have less body variation. That much is obvious. Less expensive because it requires less design and adjustment for body shape.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
Unless you're trying to be like EVERY idolised male celebrity or any advertised man.

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.
It's called haggling, not influenced by gender. Besides, women pay a RIDICULOUS amount less in insurance, especially at younger ages.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
Also bullshit. There's also less we can do about it.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.
But you can't be quiet without being called a pussy, nor can you be soft and polite without being called queer/poofy.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)
This is ridiculous. What kind of idiot would consider it a "selfish special interest" to seek protection from violence? Who the fuck wrote that?

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
Human. As in, Human Beings. Easier and more natural to say man than replace it with the multi-syllable person or woman.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
True, but any headstrong decision will be attributed to "thinking with his dick" or being hard-headed or brutish.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.
True.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
Ah, I love this one. This is not sexist. This is logical. ANY would-be employee who is strongly considering being absent from work for 10+ months on full pay for ANY reason should be lowered in preference. You do know how much stick men get for paternity leave, right?

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
That's because religion was thought up by men, who were dominant at the time. However, this is a moot point, as most major religions place a massive, MASSIVE importance on women. Eve and Mary, for example.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
See above.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
Entirely depends on the relationship. Null point. Especially when males are typically expected to do all DIY, sort out plumbing, electrics, technology and vehicular problems, and so on.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.
If you're living in the 1930s, sure.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
Again, ENTIRELY depends on the couple.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
Yes, as traditionally men worked, therefore had disposable income. This is changing rather rapidly, and has been for decades.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.
Bullshit. See my original post for elaboration.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
But years of systematic mindgames and psychological abuse are highly likely.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?
As far as I know, this goes for both genders. When the hell do people do that?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.
No, but you need to retain a list of any even remotely complementary things that you must not say for fear of being called a stalker, rapist, pervert, or getting hit. In fact, so much as looking in the general direction of women is seen as offensive, despite increasing amounts of women wearing very little.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
Entirely depends on who, what, where and why. Null point.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
Because there aren't any.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong there, and most of the time men will not even consider an average woman as a girlfriend. They have to look perfect.

I have a friend who people assume is my boyfriend because of how we act together. I have had people actually shocked that he isn't. He won't go out with me becuase he says I'm not pretty enough. So no...women don't get to choose who they want, painfully so sometimes. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the "men" you hang out with are arseholes. Hell, men are genetically programmed to not really give much of a shit.

Men are indeed influenced by how the opposite gender looks, but not even on the same scale as most women.

 

[Headsprouter]

Well, I'm Ginger, and male. I'm screwed already in terms of relationships, while women are all set because they look 'exotic'. I look like a dork. But I kind of am.

 

[intheweeds]

Also, every advantage has a disadvantage , mostly in the form of relationships. men DO not get to pick whoever they want, women get to. if a woman is average, she'll have guys lining up. Men who are average do not have this luxury.

I feel like men do this to themselves though. The reason women can get men so easily is because women generally will not jump in bed with just anyone. They require you prove your worth first. If men required women to prove their worth in the same way, it would be equal and women would be jockeying for men in the same way.

 

[daftalchemist]

Please enlighten me as to what genuine benefits men have in society now?

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

I must post this, because usually, women are the ones speaking more, which gives more possibility to be interrupted.
The other points are fine, if a little extreme. Not EVERYONE gets raped, and there are successful women, just less because women weren't allowed to do shit not too long ago (and some still aren't) Also, every advantage has a disadvantage , mostly in the form of relationships. men DO not get to pick whoever they want, women get to. if a woman is average, she'll have guys lining up. Men who are average do not have this luxury.

I really can't speak for your own experiences, but every woman I've ever been friends with has gone for "average" guys. In fact, some of the women I've known throughout my life (myself included) find themselves crushing pretty hard on chubby men more often than thin ones.

Sure, when it comes to superficial relationships, a woman will go for a man's looks. But that's not the real thing, so who even cares? But I've found that for the majority of the time, all it takes is to discover the "average" man's personality, and if it's a good personality with a great sense of humor, they get the real relationship in the end. And it's funny, because I don't think that women realize that in the end looks aren't that important to them, and they almost feel bad about it. Like since we are spending so much time looking beautiful to impress men, they should be impressing us too, or something.

My one friend who has just gotten a boyfriend will actually say with a hint of something like embarrassment that he's "not really attractive looking". But you can tell she's giddy in love, so it's not like she actually regrets not having a better looking man. And even I tell her that my boyfriend probably wouldn't win any hotness contests, but he's the hottest guy in the world to me (and that's all that matters anyway). I guess the stereotype nowadays is that girls are supposed to go for the "attractive" but also generally douchebaggy type.

 

[Lawbringer]

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Might I be permitted to respond to some of these points?

Spoiler: men don't have it quite so good as you think!

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

What statistics have you for this? Bear in mind that, while the percentage of men becomes higher the more prestigious the job is, this bears correlation with the fact that more men are applying for these prestigious jobs. Statistically women are far less likely to apply for promotion without having already being prompted.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

This is sadly true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

Unfortunately this is not true. Read point number 2 which helps to explain this. Many positions are 'women-only'. For example a management team that is all-male so they decide they need a woman to fill it. This DOES happen and it means men can be locked out of jobs purely because of their sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

This is also true. Similar to crimes for ethnic minorities or foreign nationals in this respect

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.

But far more likely to be taken seriously and given a big payout. Men are more likely to be ridiculed for complaining about this.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

This is a strange one - I would have considered this the other way around (although still against women). Often when a woman does a perfectly adequate job the response is "Pretty good...for a woman", which always annoys me to hear.

Of course, a woman can say 'men are all useless' in the workplace without fear of reprisal. You can never NEVER say the reverse as a man. Don't think this doesn't have a negative effect on the male pysche.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

This is true. Although men are much more likely to be beaten up for killed in the streets than women.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

True. But that's largely the reason men tend to think ourselves invincible right up to the point the knife is put through our belly for not giving up our wallets.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

This is sadly true.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

True, but if men decide to stay at home with their children their masculinity WILL be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

See my point for 6. It's actually quite patronising to be praised for performing a straight-forward task.

Also - this tells you that society considers men incapable of childcare. This is why we usually lose custody of children to women.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

Perhaps a regional/national thing? I have never come across this attitude in England having lived in Yorkshire, Essex and London.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Really? Politicians are scrutinised for EVERYTHING! This is not a gender issue, either, just that the press love to drag public figures into the dirt.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

See point number 1 for this. This considering I had a female lecturer in politics at university who showed the class the statistics for women trying to go into politics. Granted this is part of a larger problem of women not being viewed as leaders by the general public, so that somewhat tempers my point.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Okay, this point has been made a few times now...(See point 1)

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

Varies family to family, but largely I agree. Dolls are girls toys, guns are boys toys. This is very unfair social conditioning and I must agree.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

Oh, I really agree with you here. There are so few decent women in popular media. They also have to be 'kooky' or 'messed up' or 'hot' or whatever. They can't just be 'funny', 'badass' or 'looks don't come into it' like male characters.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

Went to an all-boys school. I really can't comment. But at primary school this was not the case. In fact girls had far more attention and would cry when they didn't. Boys tended to be neglected. I'm not commenting on gender differences here, merely regaling what I observed.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

This sounds more like overanalysing to me, but I do not have the mind of a woman so I can't really comment on how women think. (Of course there is no such thing as 'the way men think' and 'the way women think' but you take my point, I'm sure)

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

In the real world, see point 1. In the fictional world see point 17.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

I've never ever seen this attitude - and this is after having worked in a bank, so I saw plenty of financial affairs.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

This is true. As an addendum, it annoys me that - in England - women's car insurance has been bumper to equal that of men. How does that make sense when woman are statistically less likely to be involved in crashes? Yey equality...?

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

No. Sorry. Don't agree. Plenty of women speakers out there and have never heard comments on their gender being an issue. (Unless gender IS the issue).

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

I agree with this. There is no negative portrayal of the male slut. What is slut bashing, though?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

This is simple and applies to both sexes - the more flesh you show off, the more you are...well...showing off! I quite often see men being leered at in the streets by groups of girls (sadly, I am not one of them) who shout lewd comments and so on. Also...if you're worried your outfit it too sexual then...perhaps it is?

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

Woah! Women's clothing is more expensive? Surely you jest! Take a shop like Primark. Cheap clothing targetted at women. In fact...the whole fashion industry is dominated by women's clothing. Women have ample opportunity to buy clothes of the same quality and price of men's as well as FAR more variety of sizes, styles, brands, prices and locational usage than men.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

Then stop wasting time tarting yourself up? If you spend hours trying to look nice for a man, then the type you will attract will be the sort that wants a woman that spends hours looking nice for him.

Or, to put it another way - If you don't like having to cover yourself with makeup, then stop trying to be something you're not!

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

But if you are attractive, you can get away with murder (not literally). This goes both ways.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

Except people don't like loudmouthed and aggressive men either? Try going out in England on a Friday or Saturday night. You'll see a lot of shrieking and bawling men and women both looking as dreadful as the other.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

So...you think that if a woman is stabbed in the street it won't be taken seriously? Sorry, but this point is nonsense and you know it. Domestic violence and rape are special cases because they are specfic and (unfortunately) common forms of violence. If a man was raped do you think it would just go down as assault? No! It would be rape, just the same.

Just because it happens more commonly to women, don't make the mistake these crimes don't happen to men, too, and don't think it would be taken any more or less seriously than women.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Wo-man? You're included too!

Seriously, though...this is just language. A label. I can assure you that whilst you may apply seism to it, no man I have ever met has ever considered it a victory over women.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

This is true. Nevertheless, don't dismiss there IS a biological reasoning behind it. Just because men make jokes about it (which is not fair, it must be said), doesn't change the fact that - for many women - this can result in increased aggression, irritibility, depression and so on.

This is not being sexist, this is a fact of life. Having said that - anyone who questions a woman's ability solely on this point is out of order. Biological conditions are only a factor in extreme cases if someone (male or female) goes totally off the rails and needs to be removed from their position. Obviously I'm referring to stress, depression, hangover, or anything that is showing to affect someone's mental state.

To cut a long story short? I agree with your point - people shouldn't be so quick to make jokes about of of life's necessities at the expense of anyone. Nevertheless the point can sometimes be valid.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

Very true. Although men will be ridiculed if they do decide to change their name. When I was with my last girlfriend we were very close to getting engaged. When I broached the idea of taking another name with my friends and family I was mocked for weeks.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

This is a big one. In all fairness, if I owned a business I want to be sure that the person I am paying for the next three years will be working for the next three years! That is not an unreasonable train of thought when the primary function of business is to make money.

I think it would be best solved it a paternity/maternity contract was signed. The employee agrees not to take any leave for child purposes for X amount of months/years. Their employment automatically comes to an end should they start a family after the time has lapsed and they can expect a fair reference. For every year they worked within the contract's terms they get X months of paid leave.

Just a thought to help eliminate this contentious issue. Feel free to pick holes in it, but in my opinion anyone who thinks that is unfair also thinks it is okay to take someone else's job without the intention of actually DOING said job for the near future.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

If you care about this sort of thing, I suppose. Not being religious I can't say this has affected me, so I won't presume to contradict your point.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

See point above. Also - religious doctrines contain many foolish rules that no longer apply in the 21st century.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

Oh come on! Surely this is down to the decision the two people make. Surely the answer is to not date a lazy pig!

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

Of the young couples I know (12 in my peer group - I'm falling behind in this regard!), they divide the work fairly equally. Out of those, 3 are stay at home mums and one is a stay ay home dad. The stay-at-homers do near enough all the childcare as part of their contribution to the house.


40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

Again - based on what I've seen in my twenty-odd years on this planet, this is based on two principles:
1) Does either of them volunteer? (This is usually women. It's fairly natural for them to form a bond with something that's been growing inside them for the best part of a year)
2) If both want to stay at work, who earns the most? This is often men, of course.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

So...a WHOLE area of work that men don't get to be a part of? You're forgetting the part where this is VOLUNTARY! The women on the billboards are being paid to do that. It's a job where you don't have to do anything but look good. Hardly a crime against women.

Also, being a model is a thing to be ridiculed in the male world, whereas some women aspire to be models.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

This is because women compete with each other for looks where men tend to for money. Once again - if you don't like being thin, then why do it? You will only attract a man who wants thin women. Be curvy and attract a man who loves you for being curvy. If you are NOT doing it to attract a man, then you are doing it to be better than others. In which case stop complaining! If you want to be 'the best' then you have to work for it.

That's social consequences out the way. Now onto economic...Not sure I follow what you mean by 'economic consequences for being fat'?

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Yes this is true. And despicable.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

Can't say I've seen this happen ever. Also...what's wrong with smiling? I smile at people all the time. Although assuming this happens to you, I can imagine it would get pretty annoying if it happened at regular intervals.

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

This is true.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

Wow! Really? Are you basically saying men are rude? I'm sorry but this is misguided and simply untrue.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Interesting point here. I would say that this is perhaps because the gap isn't so wide as your 46 points would imply?

Please don't take this as an 'argument' per se. I am genuinely responding to each on of your points and agreeing where it is an inescapable fact.

However, I think I've narrowed it down to only a handful of points, and many of those are actually quite similar to each other. (Sexual harassment/promotion prospects being mentioned many times in different ways, for example).

I would say that, overall, you have to understand that you might consider men to be lucky they are able to do one thing, but you are forgetting that they are socially ostracised if they choose not to do that thing. (for example, working instead of staying home with the children)

Also, women's complaints and legal proceedings tend to be taken more seriously because women's perceived 'weakness' also has the knock-on effect of them appearing more like helpless victims. You only need to view a list of average 'per case' compensation claim/prosecution attempt to see that women are far more likely to be paid out more if they are the victim and far less likley to receive long jail sentences if they are the perpertrator.

All in all, it would be naive of me to say that there is no such thing as a gender gap, but it is also short-sighted in this day and age to say "Across the board, Men/Women definitely have it easier than the other gender". It is all circumstantial and for every negative there can be drawn a positive, or a similar negative for 'the other side'.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Concluding point - isn't it about time we stopped seeing things in terms of men/women/black/white/disabled/etc etc and just saw individuals? This is the final hurdle to removing -isms in our society once and for all.

tl;dr - Go and read the points, you lazy bum! Don't expect me to spoonfeed you!

 

[4ged]

oh and that checklist is kinda subjective and depending entirely on situation, the whole fact that in the united states affirmative action exists nullifies most of the job related parts of the checklist, and regarding the childcare related parts that it credited to billions of years of evolution and biology... those roles are not social ones but genetic... and the adverts are filled with sexually clad women is because the company in which is doing the ad is using an under handed way to sell there product by appealing to a primitive and very easily manipulated section of the male Psyche "the desire for sex" if you haven't noticed men have an on off switch that gets flicked ether way with ease. in regards to the stalking and public harassment/safety issue, has nothing to do with sex really but everything to do with strength and power when it comes to victim selection, a 90 lb woman is easier to rob then a 250 lb man. also everything that has to do with politics, appearance, or how you think others think of you, is more of a personality problem then a sexist one. all and all your checklist needs to be 45 things shorter.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Here's the response.

Please enlighten me as to what genuine benefits men have in society now?

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist, responded to

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
Bullshit, through-and-through. Especially when you take the fear of sexism backlash.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.
Also untrue, though this swings both ways and depends entirely on the job in question.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.
Again, see above.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.
Again, see above. Possibly even more one-sided towards men in this day and age.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .
Finally, one that is actually true. That said, should any sexual harassment ensue, women can sue, get the male fired, etc. Men get no such luxury.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.
Except the stereotypical view of both genders denounces that, as men are slobbish and women are neat and tidy.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.
Yet odds of any sexual encounter being claimed as sexual abuse, rape etc. are relatively high, almost infinitely so compared to females.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.
Males are taught to be aggressive and territorial, vastly increasing chances of conflict in the same scenario.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Except your masculinity will be called into question for your entire life regardless of any choice you make.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
But if I have children and am separated, males are given fuck all rights regardless of whether they're better parents.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.
As are single mothers.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.
Yep, this one is true.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
But any deviation will be blown out of proportion. One porn film rental? 6-month long scandal, removal from office, public outcry, etc.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.
Career choices, not gender.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.
Again, entirely depends on industry.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.
Err, what? Entirely dependant on family. Null point.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.
As a child (and an adult) we get an almost infinite variety of clothing. By infinite, I mean blue, brown, black, shirt or t-shirt.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong. Plus, females typically have better grades, especially in high school.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
True, but I doubt many women encounter this.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.
Yes, badly, mostly criminals, liars and idiots, as opposed to women being portrayed relatively well. Men are demonised in media.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.
Yes it will.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.
Yes it will. Ever heard of boy racers, or midlife crises?

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.
But your masculinity certainly will be.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?
Not as openly, but it does exist. What is worse, though, is getting that same kind of comment from being accused of simply LOOKING at other women.

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.
Because our clothes consist of fuck all.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.
Because we have less body variation. That much is obvious. Less expensive because it requires less design and adjustment for body shape.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
Unless you're trying to be like EVERY idolised male celebrity or any advertised man.

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.
It's called haggling, not influenced by gender. Besides, women pay a RIDICULOUS amount less in insurance, especially at younger ages.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.
Also bullshit. There's also less we can do about it.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.
But you can't be quiet without being called a pussy, nor can you be soft and polite without being called queer/poofy.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)
This is ridiculous. What kind of idiot would consider it a "selfish special interest" to seek protection from violence? Who the fuck wrote that?

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.
Human. As in, Human Beings. Easier and more natural to say man than replace it with the multi-syllable person or woman.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.
True, but any headstrong decision will be attributed to "thinking with his dick" or being hard-headed or brutish.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.
True.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.
Ah, I love this one. This is not sexist. This is logical. ANY would-be employee who is strongly considering being absent from work for 10+ months on full pay for ANY reason should be lowered in preference. You do know how much stick men get for paternity leave, right?

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.
That's because religion was thought up by men, who were dominant at the time. However, this is a moot point, as most major religions place a massive, MASSIVE importance on women. Eve and Mary, for example.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.
See above.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
Entirely depends on the relationship. Null point. Especially when males are typically expected to do all DIY, sort out plumbing, electrics, technology and vehicular problems, and so on.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.
If you're living in the 1930s, sure.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.
Again, ENTIRELY depends on the couple.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
Yes, as traditionally men worked, therefore had disposable income. This is changing rather rapidly, and has been for decades.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.
Bullshit. See my original post for elaboration.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
But years of systematic mindgames and psychological abuse are highly likely.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?
As far as I know, this goes for both genders. When the hell do people do that?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.
No, but you need to retain a list of any even remotely complementary things that you must not say for fear of being called a stalker, rapist, pervert, or getting hit. In fact, so much as looking in the general direction of women is seen as offensive, despite increasing amounts of women wearing very little.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.
Entirely depends on who, what, where and why. Null point.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
Because there aren't any.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Sorry but you are just kidding yourself if you think many of those things aren't true. When I was younger I actually thought things were better for women nowadays. After experiencing things first hand however they really aren't. The legislation may be in place but there are still massive prejudices against women in the workforce and in society.

I once had a HR manager say to me that I didn't look like I was making an effort becuase I didn't wear makeup...when I was working with food. :|

Of course there are sexist issues towards men, you argue many time there that you are expected to be masculine. But being masculine is seen as a positive thing in todays society while being feminine isn't.

It's okay for a woman to act like a man but if a man acts like a woman it is degrading. Why do you think that is?

 

[SkullKing84]

The women at my job rate us guys by our looks and our butts (2 ratings woot), in front of customers. When one of our guys commented on this and rated some of their butts (in the break room away from customers)... he got a stern reminder about sexual harassment.

 

[hipster666]

This is a personal bug-bear of mine for all the reasons the OP said, but fundamentally for more important ones. These are a list of my own personal experiences with sexism (I'm a guy btw):-
sexual discrimination at work - working in a noisy club I was admonished publically for tapping a girl's hip because she was gossiping with her colleague and standing in front of the fridge I needed access to. I was supposed to yell over the loud music for her to move apparently, yet the same girl thought it was okay to put her hand on my chest to balance herself while reaching for an optic. I challenged her behaviour as she challenged mine and ended as an uneasy stalemate.
I've also had unwelcome sexual advances at work but when trying to report it AT work or seek advice from friends and my dad I was told what was I complaining about? Apparently there is no such thing as unwanted sexual advances if you're a man...

Socially - I was told by one woman that woman cannot be sexist because it's something a man does to a woman... (I'm hoping that one speaks for itself!)
I challenged a female friend to think of ANY word to describe a sexist woman (other than the aforementioned words) and I would match her word for word with the myriad words used to describe men. Two WEEKS later she found mysandrist which is the definition of a sexist woman.

Legally - I challenged an organisation I worked for because their EQUALITY statement mentioned ethnic minorities, religious minorities and women. No mention of being equal to men....
I'm an IT contractor and I have, over years, learned how to haggle for a new contract to ensure a better rate. It comes with the risk of being turned down and losing work but I have been lucky and good enough to come out of it rather well. There was a change in the market to level out female IT contractors because the industry found they weren't being paid the same as most men. When I asked a number of female contractors I know if they EVER haggled over a contract they said no, they just accepted what was offered and lived with it. So now, due to positive discrimination, they benefit from the risk taking and negotiation of men in the industry without having to do anything themselves. Someone wanna tell me why that's equal?

Jobs - I've just finished my degree and for years I've needed to work and study, with the result I effectively work two full time jobs, one as a student and one that pays the bills. I've applied, over the years, for many part-time positions that would even the balance out but was actually TOLD in one job I was being turned down because as a man I wasn't seen as a reliable bet in terms of long term placement, whereas women have families so will fit into the position better (her words NOT MINE).

Medical - I had testicular cancer at 26 and don't have a family, something I've always wanted. When I had my fertility tested (whole thing was a bit of a botch so this was an emotional time for me) I was told that my sperm morphology was abnormal. When I asked what this meant I was told that apparently no-one knows, in terms of fertility because virtually ALL research done into fertility are done for women.

There are plenty more examples but these cover the broad strokes. Personally the death knell for feminism being something I felt strong about was when Germaine Greer, a leading feminist activist, said she thought feminism had gone too far, that women were using the suffering their mothers and grandmothers had gone through to justify castrating men.

My dad made me laugh. He said, "I love equality, I'd love to be equal to a woman."

If women want equality then can we have our rights back please?

 

[grimgor42]

Here are some facts:

1.Men DO on average get longer sentences for the same crimes as women.

2.Men are naturally stronger then women, and are intellectually equal to them most of the time. Our muscles are denser. FACT. I'm just being brave enough to state the fact because most shy away from it. So in terms of physical capability, the GENDERS ARENT EQUAL AAAAAAAAAAH!!!!! (there are some girls I've talked to that entirely cannot handle this, even though in today's world the question of how smart you are is astronomically more important)

3. Women DO get paid less than men on average for doing the same work. It's a legitimate problem that should be fixed. Once it is, the feminists might realize they have lost their most legimate point for existing as feminists (at least in certain countries we are otherwise pretty much equal)

4. Men DO get in more trouble for being violent/sexist towards women. I'm not saying they should get any less of a punishment, but it would be nice to see women getting in the same trouble for doing the same things, even if it occurs more rarely.

5. There ARE countries where women are abused and treated as objects. This IS terrible, but at the same time, is NOT the fault of men who have nothing to do with what goes on in those countries, and should therefore not be considered a legitimate argument of feminists protesting things in the civilized western world.

Is there anything I missed?

 

[Joshimodo]

-snip-

Yes, you certainly raise a valid point that I (and likely millions of others) had considered, that adverts expect women to automatically know how to do that stuff. It's a fair point, but the fact that it's such simple actions displayed as impossible to men is offensive.

Much in the same way, the uber-handsome supermen portrayed in games and films, for example, is not so much a "men are great" point as it is a "look what you should be trying to be!" point. Those stubbly-chinned macho heroes are put there so that the male audience (which is the primary demographic in the standard gaming industry) can effectively "be" those characters that we are not.


Anyway, all of that targeted media skews perspectives on both sides, for the most part.

"Women" (and I use that term loosely in this case) like Megan Fox are flashed as "the ideal woman" (but certainly not to me or many other people I know), basically oversexualised eye candy, who want to have sex. Unpleasant, yet the idea exists.

"The ideal male" that films and other media portray, however, is a bit more concise - Smart, funny/witty, well dressed, slightly rugged, rich, successful, faithful, heroic but rogueish, adventurous and macho (but with a hidden sensitive side that he seldom shows).


I'm not sure where I'm going with that, but as with earlier, I'm very tired and haven't slept in days. Make of it what you will.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Might I be permitted to respond to some of these points?

Spoiler: men don't have it quite so good as you think!

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

What statistics have you for this? Bear in mind that, while the percentage of men becomes higher the more prestigious the job is, this bears correlation with the fact that more men are applying for these prestigious jobs. Statistically women are far less likely to apply for promotion without having already being prompted.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

This is sadly true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

Unfortunately this is not true. Read point number 2 which helps to explain this. Many positions are 'women-only'. For example a management team that is all-male so they decide they need a woman to fill it. This DOES happen and it means men can be locked out of jobs purely because of their sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

This is also true. Similar to crimes for ethnic minorities or foreign nationals in this respect

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.

But far more likely to be taken seriously and given a big payout. Men are more likely to be ridiculed for complaining about this.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

This is a strange one - I would have considered this the other way around (although still against women). Often when a woman does a perfectly adequate job the response is "Pretty good...for a woman", which always annoys me to hear.

Of course, a woman can say 'men are all useless' in the workplace without fear of reprisal. You can never NEVER say the reverse as a man. Don't think this doesn't have a negative effect on the male pysche.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

This is true. Although men are much more likely to be beaten up for killed in the streets than women.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

True. But that's largely the reason men tend to think ourselves invincible right up to the point the knife is put through our belly for not giving up our wallets.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

This is sadly true.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

True, but if men decide to stay at home with their children their masculinity WILL be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

See my point for 6. It's actually quite patronising to be praised for performing a straight-forward task.

Also - this tells you that society considers men incapable of childcare. This is why we usually lose custody of children to women.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

Perhaps a regional/national thing? I have never come across this attitude in England having lived in Yorkshire, Essex and London.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Really? Politicians are scrutinised for EVERYTHING! This is not a gender issue, either, just that the press love to drag public figures into the dirt.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

See point number 1 for this. This considering I had a female lecturer in politics at university who showed the class the statistics for women trying to go into politics. Granted this is part of a larger problem of women not being viewed as leaders by the general public, so that somewhat tempers my point.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Okay, this point has been made a few times now...(See point 1)

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

Varies family to family, but largely I agree. Dolls are girls toys, guns are boys toys. This is very unfair social conditioning and I must agree.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

Oh, I really agree with you here. There are so few decent women in popular media. They also have to be 'kooky' or 'messed up' or 'hot' or whatever. They can't just be 'funny', 'badass' or 'looks don't come into it' like male characters.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

Went to an all-boys school. I really can't comment. But at primary school this was not the case. In fact girls had far more attention and would cry when they didn't. Boys tended to be neglected. I'm not commenting on gender differences here, merely regaling what I observed.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

This sounds more like overanalysing to me, but I do not have the mind of a woman so I can't really comment on how women think. (Of course there is no such thing as 'the way men think' and 'the way women think' but you take my point, I'm sure)

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

In the real world, see point 1. In the fictional world see point 17.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

I've never ever seen this attitude - and this is after having worked in a bank, so I saw plenty of financial affairs.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

This is true. As an addendum, it annoys me that - in England - women's car insurance has been bumper to equal that of men. How does that make sense when woman are statistically less likely to be involved in crashes? Yey equality...?

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

No. Sorry. Don't agree. Plenty of women speakers out there and have never heard comments on their gender being an issue. (Unless gender IS the issue).

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

I agree with this. There is no negative portrayal of the male slut. What is slut bashing, though?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

This is simple and applies to both sexes - the more flesh you show off, the more you are...well...showing off! I quite often see men being leered at in the streets by groups of girls (sadly, I am not one of them) who shout lewd comments and so on. Also...if you're worried your outfit it too sexual then...perhaps it is?

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

Woah! Women's clothing is more expensive? Surely you jest! Take a shop like Primark. Cheap clothing targetted at women. In fact...the whole fashion industry is dominated by women's clothing. Women have ample opportunity to buy clothes of the same quality and price of men's as well as FAR more variety of sizes, styles, brands, prices and locational usage than men.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

Then stop wasting time tarting yourself up? If you spend hours trying to look nice for a man, then the type you will attract will be the sort that wants a woman that spends hours looking nice for him.

Or, to put it another way - If you don't like having to cover yourself with makeup, then stop trying to be something you're not!

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

But if you are attractive, you can get away with murder (not literally). This goes both ways.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

Except people don't like loudmouthed and aggressive men either? Try going out in England on a Friday or Saturday night. You'll see a lot of shrieking and bawling men and women both looking as dreadful as the other.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

So...you think that if a woman is stabbed in the street it won't be taken seriously? Sorry, but this point is nonsense and you know it. Domestic violence and rape are special cases because they are specfic and (unfortunately) common forms of violence. If a man was raped do you think it would just go down as assault? No! It would be rape, just the same.

Just because it happens more commonly to women, don't make the mistake these crimes don't happen to men, too, and don't think it would be taken any more or less seriously than women.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Wo-man? You're included too!

Seriously, though...this is just language. A label. I can assure you that whilst you may apply seism to it, no man I have ever met has ever considered it a victory over women.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

This is true. Nevertheless, don't dismiss there IS a biological reasoning behind it. Just because men make jokes about it (which is not fair, it must be said), doesn't change the fact that - for many women - this can result in increased aggression, irritibility, depression and so on.

This is not being sexist, this is a fact of life. Having said that - anyone who questions a woman's ability solely on this point is out of order. Biological conditions are only a factor in extreme cases if someone (male or female) goes totally off the rails and needs to be removed from their position. Obviously I'm referring to stress, depression, hangover, or anything that is showing to affect someone's mental state.

To cut a long story short? I agree with your point - people shouldn't be so quick to make jokes about of of life's necessities at the expense of anyone. Nevertheless the point can sometimes be valid.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

Very true. Although men will be ridiculed if they do decide to change their name. When I was with my last girlfriend we were very close to getting engaged. When I broached the idea of taking another name with my friends and family I was mocked for weeks.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

This is a big one. In all fairness, if I owned a business I want to be sure that the person I am paying for the next three years will be working for the next three years! That is not an unreasonable train of thought when the primary function of business is to make money.

I think it would be best solved it a paternity/maternity contract was signed. The employee agrees not to take any leave for child purposes for X amount of months/years. Their employment automatically comes to an end should they start a family after the time has lapsed and they can expect a fair reference. For every year they worked within the contract's terms they get X months of paid leave.

Just a thought to help eliminate this contentious issue. Feel free to pick holes in it, but in my opinion anyone who thinks that is unfair also thinks it is okay to take someone else's job without the intention of actually DOING said job for the near future.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

If you care about this sort of thing, I suppose. Not being religious I can't say this has affected me, so I won't presume to contradict your point.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

See point above. Also - religious doctrines contain many foolish rules that no longer apply in the 21st century.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

Oh come on! Surely this is down to the decision the two people make. Surely the answer is to not date a lazy pig!

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

Of the young couples I know (12 in my peer group - I'm falling behind in this regard!), they divide the work fairly equally. Out of those, 3 are stay at home mums and one is a stay ay home dad. The stay-at-homers do near enough all the childcare as part of their contribution to the house.


40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

Again - based on what I've seen in my twenty-odd years on this planet, this is based on two principles:
1) Does either of them volunteer? (This is usually women. It's fairly natural for them to form a bond with something that's been growing inside them for the best part of a year)
2) If both want to stay at work, who earns the most? This is often men, of course.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

So...a WHOLE area of work that men don't get to be a part of? You're forgetting the part where this is VOLUNTARY! The women on the billboards are being paid to do that. It's a job where you don't have to do anything but look good. Hardly a crime against women.

Also, being a model is a thing to be ridiculed in the male world, whereas some women aspire to be models.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

This is because women compete with each other for looks where men tend to for money. Once again - if you don't like being thin, then why do it? You will only attract a man who wants thin women. Be curvy and attract a man who loves you for being curvy. If you are NOT doing it to attract a man, then you are doing it to be better than others. In which case stop complaining! If you want to be 'the best' then you have to work for it.

That's social consequences out the way. Now onto economic...Not sure I follow what you mean by 'economic consequences for being fat'?

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Yes this is true. And despicable.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

Can't say I've seen this happen ever. Also...what's wrong with smiling? I smile at people all the time. Although assuming this happens to you, I can imagine it would get pretty annoying if it happened at regular intervals.

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

This is true.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

Wow! Really? Are you basically saying men are rude? I'm sorry but this is misguided and simply untrue.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Interesting point here. I would say that this is perhaps because the gap isn't so wide as your 46 points would imply?

Please don't take this as an 'argument' per se. I am genuinely responding to each on of your points and agreeing where it is an inescapable fact.

However, I think I've narrowed it down to only a handful of points, and many of those are actually quite similar to each other. (Sexual harassment/promotion prospects being mentioned many times in different ways, for example).

I would say that, overall, you have to understand that you might consider men to be lucky they are able to do one thing, but you are forgetting that they are socially ostracised if they choose not to do that thing. (for example, working instead of staying home with the children)

Also, women's complaints and legal proceedings tend to be taken more seriously because women's perceived 'weakness' also has the knock-on effect of them appearing more like helpless victims. You only need to view a list of average 'per case' compensation claim/prosecution attempt to see that women are far more likely to be paid out more if they are the victim and far less likley to receive long jail sentences if they are the perpertrator.

All in all, it would be naive of me to say that there is no such thing as a gender gap, but it is also short-sighted in this day and age to say "Across the board, Men/Women definitely have it easier than the other gender". It is all circumstantial and for every negative there can be drawn a positive, or a similar negative for 'the other side'.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Concluding point - isn't it about time we stopped seeing things in terms of men/women/black/white/disabled/etc etc and just saw individuals? This is the final hurdle to removing -isms in our society once and for all.

tl;dr - Go and read the points, you lazy bum! Don't expect me to spoonfeed you!

While I'm flattered that you think so I didn't write those. It was a man on his blog. He endevoured to write a 'sexist' version of the list compiled In 1990 by Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh who wrote an essay called ?White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack?.

I agree with many of your points but I would still say that overall, women have it worse off than men. The point of the OP was that sexism has now turned upon men and is going the other way which is, in my opinion, completely false.

 

[peruvianskys]

Yeah, the amount of casual sexism I see in these threads is really upsetting. So a woman makes a joke about penis size on the air and no one complains? Every three minutes a woman is raped in this country. Men murder their spouses every day. Women are denied healthcare and housing and jobs and all manner of things that men take for granted every day. I'm a man, and I'm not ashamed of it, but I'd like to think I'm not choking on my male privilege to the point where I can't see that I do have it better off. Complaints like this are disgusting.

 

[Talshere]

T
I understand your pain, I hate it when previously oppressed people get a few double standards in their favour too. What'll they want next, equal rights? Pfft...

I have a problem with this statement. It implies you have nothing wrong with socially acceptable double standards.

This is a very VERY dangerous precedent and one that is quickly becoming a serious problem in the UK.

Because Briton has always had "dominion over Wales and Scotland, these now both have independent parliaments and laws which are unaccountable to English voters. But Scottish and welsh voters sill hold full right in English lawmaking."

Scotland and Wales have not been treated poorly since pre empire days some 300+ years ago. Yet this discrimination against English people is still fully sanction and accepted by its people. Yet this is not fair in the slightest and is beginning to cause serious resentment within the country. "Why should we pay for them to have free university, when THEY forced us to have 9k tuition fees". Yet because this is so accepted and has been for so long, Scotland and Wales think it is there RIGHT to have this privilege over the English, and it cannot be changed without a majority vote, which cant really be achieved without Wales and Scotland agreeing to it.

This is starting to cause problem, and its within 3 countries that historically have worked well together without major conflict for 100's of year. 3 countries which are so close, they are one country.

How do you think this is going to go down with historically high racial tensions and a system which it telling everyone that equality reigns supreme. How long cant you justify a double standard before it just become discrimination? Black/White double standard are common in the US and UK alike. In the US it is somewhat "accepted" because apartheid, even though you dont call it that, was fairly common and present even in the 50's. This has not been the case in the UK for several hundred years. Yet this double standard is still accepted?



This is a very VERY dangerous ground we tread. It must be handled delicately or it will blow up in our faces as it makes a mockery of the equality the western world supposedly champions.

Either we are equal. Or we discriminate. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Joshimodo]

Sorry but you are just kidding yourself if you think many of those things aren't true. When I was younger I actually thought things were better for women nowadays. After experiencing things first hand however they really aren't. The legislation may be in place but there are still massive prejudices against women in the workforce and in society.

I once had a HR manager say to me that I didn't look like I was making an effort becuase I didn't wear makeup...when I was working with food. :|

Of course there are sexist issues towards men, you argue many time there that you are expected to be masculine. But being masculine is seen as a positive thing in todays society while being feminine isn't.

It's okay for a woman to act like a man but if a man acts like a woman it is degrading. Why do you think that is?

You must be living in some very backwards place if they are true.

I once had a warning from a manager because I was apparently "checking out female customers" more than males, despite the fact we'd only had like 3 male customers throughout the entire day, who I had also sold stuff to. I've also had women come up to me and complain that I was staring at them, despite the fact I was just staring into space, not AT anyone.

It's ok for a woman to act masculine because it's what feminists have been fighting for for decades. Strong-willed women who do what they want, not sitting down and only speaking when spoken to. It's not really masculinity, but confidence and assertiveness. Femininity is NOT a negative thing. Being feminine when male is degrading because other males typically attack them in one way or another, as they are seen as submissive.

Yeah, the amount of casual sexism I see in these threads is really upsetting. So a woman makes a joke about penis size on the air and no one complains? Every three minutes a woman is raped in this country. Men murder their spouses every day. Women are denied healthcare and housing and jobs and all manner of things that men take for granted every day. I'm a man, and I'm not ashamed of it, but I'd like to think I'm not choking on my male privilege to the point where I can't see that I do have it better off. Complaints like this are disgusting.

Men kill men more than they kill women. Even people they didn't know.

Beyond that, the issues you speak about are horrific and are crimes. Little to do with gender equality or double standards, though.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Spoiler: The male privelege checklist

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

taken from: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Might I be permitted to respond to some of these points?

Spoiler: men don't have it quite so good as you think!

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

What statistics have you for this? Bear in mind that, while the percentage of men becomes higher the more prestigious the job is, this bears correlation with the fact that more men are applying for these prestigious jobs. Statistically women are far less likely to apply for promotion without having already being prompted.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

This is sadly true.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

Unfortunately this is not true. Read point number 2 which helps to explain this. Many positions are 'women-only'. For example a management team that is all-male so they decide they need a woman to fill it. This DOES happen and it means men can be locked out of jobs purely because of their sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

This is also true. Similar to crimes for ethnic minorities or foreign nationals in this respect

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.

But far more likely to be taken seriously and given a big payout. Men are more likely to be ridiculed for complaining about this.

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

This is a strange one - I would have considered this the other way around (although still against women). Often when a woman does a perfectly adequate job the response is "Pretty good...for a woman", which always annoys me to hear.

Of course, a woman can say 'men are all useless' in the workplace without fear of reprisal. You can never NEVER say the reverse as a man. Don't think this doesn't have a negative effect on the male pysche.

7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

This is true. Although men are much more likely to be beaten up for killed in the streets than women.

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

True. But that's largely the reason men tend to think ourselves invincible right up to the point the knife is put through our belly for not giving up our wallets.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

This is sadly true.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

True, but if men decide to stay at home with their children their masculinity WILL be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

See my point for 6. It's actually quite patronising to be praised for performing a straight-forward task.

Also - this tells you that society considers men incapable of childcare. This is why we usually lose custody of children to women.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

Perhaps a regional/national thing? I have never come across this attitude in England having lived in Yorkshire, Essex and London.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Really? Politicians are scrutinised for EVERYTHING! This is not a gender issue, either, just that the press love to drag public figures into the dirt.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

See point number 1 for this. This considering I had a female lecturer in politics at university who showed the class the statistics for women trying to go into politics. Granted this is part of a larger problem of women not being viewed as leaders by the general public, so that somewhat tempers my point.

15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

Okay, this point has been made a few times now...(See point 1)

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

Varies family to family, but largely I agree. Dolls are girls toys, guns are boys toys. This is very unfair social conditioning and I must agree.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

Oh, I really agree with you here. There are so few decent women in popular media. They also have to be 'kooky' or 'messed up' or 'hot' or whatever. They can't just be 'funny', 'badass' or 'looks don't come into it' like male characters.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

Went to an all-boys school. I really can't comment. But at primary school this was not the case. In fact girls had far more attention and would cry when they didn't. Boys tended to be neglected. I'm not commenting on gender differences here, merely regaling what I observed.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

This sounds more like overanalysing to me, but I do not have the mind of a woman so I can't really comment on how women think. (Of course there is no such thing as 'the way men think' and 'the way women think' but you take my point, I'm sure)

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

In the real world, see point 1. In the fictional world see point 17.

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

I've never ever seen this attitude - and this is after having worked in a bank, so I saw plenty of financial affairs.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

This is true. As an addendum, it annoys me that - in England - women's car insurance has been bumper to equal that of men. How does that make sense when woman are statistically less likely to be involved in crashes? Yey equality...?

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

No. Sorry. Don't agree. Plenty of women speakers out there and have never heard comments on their gender being an issue. (Unless gender IS the issue).

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

I agree with this. There is no negative portrayal of the male slut. What is slut bashing, though?

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

This is simple and applies to both sexes - the more flesh you show off, the more you are...well...showing off! I quite often see men being leered at in the streets by groups of girls (sadly, I am not one of them) who shout lewd comments and so on. Also...if you're worried your outfit it too sexual then...perhaps it is?

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

Woah! Women's clothing is more expensive? Surely you jest! Take a shop like Primark. Cheap clothing targetted at women. In fact...the whole fashion industry is dominated by women's clothing. Women have ample opportunity to buy clothes of the same quality and price of men's as well as FAR more variety of sizes, styles, brands, prices and locational usage than men.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

Then stop wasting time tarting yourself up? If you spend hours trying to look nice for a man, then the type you will attract will be the sort that wants a woman that spends hours looking nice for him.

Or, to put it another way - If you don't like having to cover yourself with makeup, then stop trying to be something you're not!

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

But if you are attractive, you can get away with murder (not literally). This goes both ways.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

Except people don't like loudmouthed and aggressive men either? Try going out in England on a Friday or Saturday night. You'll see a lot of shrieking and bawling men and women both looking as dreadful as the other.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

So...you think that if a woman is stabbed in the street it won't be taken seriously? Sorry, but this point is nonsense and you know it. Domestic violence and rape are special cases because they are specfic and (unfortunately) common forms of violence. If a man was raped do you think it would just go down as assault? No! It would be rape, just the same.

Just because it happens more commonly to women, don't make the mistake these crimes don't happen to men, too, and don't think it would be taken any more or less seriously than women.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

Wo-man? You're included too!

Seriously, though...this is just language. A label. I can assure you that whilst you may apply seism to it, no man I have ever met has ever considered it a victory over women.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

This is true. Nevertheless, don't dismiss there IS a biological reasoning behind it. Just because men make jokes about it (which is not fair, it must be said), doesn't change the fact that - for many women - this can result in increased aggression, irritibility, depression and so on.

This is not being sexist, this is a fact of life. Having said that - anyone who questions a woman's ability solely on this point is out of order. Biological conditions are only a factor in extreme cases if someone (male or female) goes totally off the rails and needs to be removed from their position. Obviously I'm referring to stress, depression, hangover, or anything that is showing to affect someone's mental state.

To cut a long story short? I agree with your point - people shouldn't be so quick to make jokes about of of life's necessities at the expense of anyone. Nevertheless the point can sometimes be valid.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

Very true. Although men will be ridiculed if they do decide to change their name. When I was with my last girlfriend we were very close to getting engaged. When I broached the idea of taking another name with my friends and family I was mocked for weeks.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

This is a big one. In all fairness, if I owned a business I want to be sure that the person I am paying for the next three years will be working for the next three years! That is not an unreasonable train of thought when the primary function of business is to make money.

I think it would be best solved it a paternity/maternity contract was signed. The employee agrees not to take any leave for child purposes for X amount of months/years. Their employment automatically comes to an end should they start a family after the time has lapsed and they can expect a fair reference. For every year they worked within the contract's terms they get X months of paid leave.

Just a thought to help eliminate this contentious issue. Feel free to pick holes in it, but in my opinion anyone who thinks that is unfair also thinks it is okay to take someone else's job without the intention of actually DOING said job for the near future.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

If you care about this sort of thing, I suppose. Not being religious I can't say this has affected me, so I won't presume to contradict your point.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

See point above. Also - religious doctrines contain many foolish rules that no longer apply in the 21st century.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

Oh come on! Surely this is down to the decision the two people make. Surely the answer is to not date a lazy pig!

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

Of the young couples I know (12 in my peer group - I'm falling behind in this regard!), they divide the work fairly equally. Out of those, 3 are stay at home mums and one is a stay ay home dad. The stay-at-homers do near enough all the childcare as part of their contribution to the house.


40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

Again - based on what I've seen in my twenty-odd years on this planet, this is based on two principles:
1) Does either of them volunteer? (This is usually women. It's fairly natural for them to form a bond with something that's been growing inside them for the best part of a year)
2) If both want to stay at work, who earns the most? This is often men, of course.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

So...a WHOLE area of work that men don't get to be a part of? You're forgetting the part where this is VOLUNTARY! The women on the billboards are being paid to do that. It's a job where you don't have to do anything but look good. Hardly a crime against women.

Also, being a model is a thing to be ridiculed in the male world, whereas some women aspire to be models.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

This is because women compete with each other for looks where men tend to for money. Once again - if you don't like being thin, then why do it? You will only attract a man who wants thin women. Be curvy and attract a man who loves you for being curvy. If you are NOT doing it to attract a man, then you are doing it to be better than others. In which case stop complaining! If you want to be 'the best' then you have to work for it.

That's social consequences out the way. Now onto economic...Not sure I follow what you mean by 'economic consequences for being fat'?

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

Yes this is true. And despicable.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

Can't say I've seen this happen ever. Also...what's wrong with smiling? I smile at people all the time. Although assuming this happens to you, I can imagine it would get pretty annoying if it happened at regular intervals.

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

This is true.

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

Wow! Really? Are you basically saying men are rude? I'm sorry but this is misguided and simply untrue.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

Interesting point here. I would say that this is perhaps because the gap isn't so wide as your 46 points would imply?

Please don't take this as an 'argument' per se. I am genuinely responding to each on of your points and agreeing where it is an inescapable fact.

However, I think I've narrowed it down to only a handful of points, and many of those are actually quite similar to each other. (Sexual harassment/promotion prospects being mentioned many times in different ways, for example).

I would say that, overall, you have to understand that you might consider men to be lucky they are able to do one thing, but you are forgetting that they are socially ostracised if they choose not to do that thing. (for example, working instead of staying home with the children)

Also, women's complaints and legal proceedings tend to be taken more seriously because women's perceived 'weakness' also has the knock-on effect of them appearing more like helpless victims. You only need to view a list of average 'per case' compensation claim/prosecution attempt to see that women are far more likely to be paid out more if they are the victim and far less likley to receive long jail sentences if they are the perpertrator.

All in all, it would be naive of me to say that there is no such thing as a gender gap, but it is also short-sighted in this day and age to say "Across the board, Men/Women definitely have it easier than the other gender". It is all circumstantial and for every negative there can be drawn a positive, or a similar negative for 'the other side'.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Concluding point - isn't it about time we stopped seeing things in terms of men/women/black/white/disabled/etc etc and just saw individuals? This is the final hurdle to removing -isms in our society once and for all.

tl;dr - Go and read the points, you lazy bum! Don't expect me to spoonfeed you!

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

 

[Daveman]

When portraying family scenes in "funny" adverts (usually to do with insurance, or something along those lines), men appear to be nothing more than bumbling idiots, with the woman in the ad sitting to the side shaking her head and rolling her eyes, effectively acting like the male is some kind of pet doing something silly and amusing. However, I guarantee that if you portrayed women as some kind of complete household idiot outside of her and her girlfriends in lifestyle/health ads, the full fury of the feminists would erupt and there would be a media outcry.

tbh the point adverts being sexist is valid, but in fact it's the reverse of what you think. Usually the adverts are intended to be funny in the example you give so I'll compare them to comedy in general.

Women aren't allowed to be shown as idiots it seems in TV, whereas men can, at least that's how it is with your shit US comedy shows, it's pretty different with the Comedy we have in the UK. This is the sexist way to write comedy because the stupid ones are almost always the main characters. It's not that men are stupid, it's that men are fun and interesting. Comedy writing seems to be unable to conceive of a woman being funny or wacky in any way. That's right, I'm saying men being portrayed as idiots is a compliment.

My favourite female character in comedy is Jen from the IT crowd. She's brilliant because she's more successful than both the guys in the show despite being clearly much less intelligent than them (albeit less weird too). It's typical gender reversal and yet she loses none of her femininity. She still obsesses over shoes and being body conscious and this is turned into comedy rather than walling it off as potentially sexist material. She too can be totally hopeless with relationships despite being a woman. To say only men can be shit with the opposite sex is clearly sexist.

Similarly The Vicar of Dibley portrays the main character, a female minister, as mostly sensible but hopeless in many situations and her friend as a COMPLETELY dim-witted, ditsy lass. This along with Miranda and Absolutely Fabulous constitute my mum's and my sister's favourite comedy shows, all of which are written by women and feature stupid female characters. Quite the opposite of your predicted "media outcry".

So it's not like there is some hidden agenda going on in TV where the male writers WANT to make the female characters stupid but can't because they think they'd get branded as sexist. It's that they sexistly think that women aren't funny and are only capable of being the straight man in a double act.

That's why your argument about men's portrayal in TV is utter shite.

 

[Joshimodo]

at least that's how it is with your shit US comedy shows, it's pretty different with the Comedy we have in the UK.

I'd respond to your whole post, but I don't have time right now. However, I will point out that I'm not from the US. I'm from the UK. Might have undermined your validity there.

 

[Lawbringer]

-Snippety Snip-

-Snippety Snip-

While I'm flattered that you think so I didn't write those. It was a man on his blog. He endevoured to write a 'sexist' version of the list compiled In 1990 by Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh who wrote an essay called ?White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack?.

I agree with many of your points but I would still say that overall, women have it worse off than men. The point of the OP was that sexism has now turned upon men and is going the other way which is, in my opinion, completely false.

Indeed so? Well there goes an hour of my life I'll never see again responding to someone who will likely never see my retorts! Glad to hear you found at least some of my thoughts interesting.

Yes, most certainly agree with you about the OP's sexism reversed idea. These things happen and when they do they are exceedingly unfair. Hardly proof, however, that society is spinning into a matricarchal dictatorship. I am a white, middle-class, tall, university educated, non-disabled, atheist male. If I were a Daily Mail reader I'd be running to the sea and swimming away from society as fast as I can!

(For those of you who have never read the Daily Mail, it is an extremely reactionary newspaper whose biggest budget goes to the 'making mountains out of molehills' department'. Their typical reaction to an illegal immigrant is to offer a free length of rope with every issue so the general public can go out and hang their nearest ethnic minority just in case they're thinking of committing more crimes).

 

[Lawbringer]

Well, I was considering doing a point-by-point response, but you've pretty much said all that I was going to. The only things I will say are, regarding the maternity leave thing, I've said already in this thread (post 41) how I think it ought work and how the current system is detrimental to everyone. I would also add that number 43 (males don't suffer domestic abuse) is flat-out wrong. I'm going to quote someone from the Women's Rights thread, as they provided several sources to disprove that myth, and credit goes to them for the research:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

Both interesting and unexpected! This rather changes my outlook on that issue.

The more you know...