Sexism; Or The Turning of Tables

[Adellebella]

Oh yeah, guys are very much-so discriminated against.

But so are women.

Everyone will have their prejudices, everyone will have their stereotypes, and everyone will have their opinions.

Be aware it's happening, and don't join in on it. If there's an opportunity to defend someone, then do it.

...It's good in theory, at least.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I find that very surprising, domestic abuse is wrong both ways of course I don't think anyone is disputing that.

No, I doubt anyone would. But unfortunately it's one of these issues that people use to argue over who has it worse out of men and women. Hence this entrie thread and similar ones. People are always trying to one-up each other on whether men or women are more 'oppressed', and it gets us nowhere. Things are only going to change one people start viewing each other as individuals, rather than defining them based on their sex.

Domestic abuse isn't the only issue though there are plenty of other reasons why women as a whole are still discriminated against compared to men.

The OP's point was that sexism was now against men and that now they are oppressed which, I think, is massively erroneous as men clearly still have the advantage in the gender gap.

But that's exactly the mindset that I think is actually holding back equality. I don't think it should be about who has the advantage. There are lots of areas where women are held back, there are also lots of areas where men suffer. People should be focussing on why these are bad things for people, not on what's bad for men and what's bad for women.

I'm sorry but when someone erroneously claims that one gender is dominating another, I am going to say something.

I agree with you that inequalities should be adressed across the board but saying that sexism goes the other way isn't really helping.

It's not really me who you should be quoting but the OP

I think it applies to both of you actually. It's not about sexism going one way or the other, it's about inequalities in general. You can choose any group you want, and you'll find that they earn more or less than a comparable group. Short men, on average, earn less money than taller men. It should be about fixing inequalities, not arguing about who has it worse.

But women do have it worse off than men...Women will earn less again than the short man you mention...

I don't see how pointing that out when someone is arguing the opposite is wrong.

I find it interesting that mostly people have picked up on my post rather than argue with the male OP for example.

 

[Talshere]

snip

I'm not being funny but this thread was about men being oppressed by women not that list, what if anything, is your view on that?

This was my argument against it and although some of it is out of date I can say that a lot of the points are more than a fair arguement against 'We get made fun of in adverts and in comedy shows'

I think its hard to say. But that its incredibly dangerous ground. I have and always will be against double standards. Just because you "were" discriminated against doesnt mean you should get concessions. If we start doing that, how long are they concessions? When does it just become discrimination.

Neither sex has a clear cut case for all the discrimination. Women now hold 60% of all top paid jobs in the US yet men hold the highest number of CEO positions by a long way.

Girls outperform boys at all levels of education. This must be seen as discrimination by the system because we both know that if this statistic was reversed and girls performed worse it would be. Yet men hold miles more jobs in "hard science" capacities (Physics/math based stuff like construction, Aerodynamic, astrophysicist etc.)


Tbh. Imo. The days of crying sexist are long gone. Studies show that women who dress for business in trousers and suit top are treated as professionals except by a few pricks. Yet men are objectified at work. Largely we just don't care. Its amazing how many sex discrimination applicants turn up to court in a tight knee length skirt, and a tight fitting shirt with the top 3 buttons undone. Sorry. Not appropriate work attire. If I turned up with my shirt unbuttoned to everything but the top one in a pair of ironed black shorts, I could well be reprimanded for it, and possibly sent home without pay till I fixed it. So actually yes. In THAT instance, we do get the rough end of the stick.

Lol now I have to revise my opening statement in this thread. I think the major things like education, salary etc. are highly undefined, and can be proven to be founded in personality, drive and superstition (IE. It was always true so we think its still true).

In practice women can get away with things in the work place that I would never dream off. Companies do hold open slots for women only cos it looks better when they report their employees that they have 1 woman, even if a male applicant was better and because socially. The reverse is never true.

But women cant have certain types of jobs? Its utter bull. A Woman wanting to be a mechanic will suffer no more stigma than a man wanting to be a nurse or a career. Worse, a woman will be praised by many for aspiring into a male dominated profession. A male wanting to be a nurse will be ask "why not a doctor". By both sexes.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

But women cant have certain types of jobs? Its utter bull.

So women can work on the front line or in the special forces? Even though it's been proven they can pass the training? Don't think so. Women find it difficult to break into certain job areas becuase society pushes them towards certain careers. It is getting better with science being promoted to girls for example but you still don't see many women in those professions.

Of course this thread only touches on Europe and the US, I would feel nervous as a woman to travel outside those areas while a man can pretty much go anywhere and still be treated the same by normal society.

Women are hardly taking over the world as the OP claims.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I think it applies to both of you actually. It's not about sexism going one way or the other, it's about inequalities in general. You can choose any group you want, and you'll find that they earn more or less than a comparable group. Short men, on average, earn less money than taller men. It should be about fixing inequalities, not arguing about who has it worse.

But women do have it worse off than men...Women will earn less again than the short man you mention...

I don't see how pointing that out when someone is arguing the opposite is wrong.

I find it interesting that mostly people have picked up on my post rather than argue with the male OP for example.

Everything I'm saying applies to both of you. And indeed, everyone else in this thread who is trying to argue about who has it worse. And due to the nature of this being a public forum, my comments are available for everyone to see.

My point is that it doesn't matter who it is that's at the disadvantage, be it men, women, black people, white people, tall people, short people, people with a limp, someone with a goatee. There are thousands of inequalities, and rather than trying to actually make things equal, people are squabbling over the tiny things that they seem to think makes their particular group the losers in all of this.

Again, this is directed at you, the OP and everyone else in this thread: Stop trying to compete over who is worse off, and focus on making things better for everyone.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

snip

If you really believe none of these things are true then you are really fooling yourself. A study in Time magazine showed that women in the US get paid on average 37% less than men for example. I think the difference is less apparent in the UK.

And btw there is formula you can give to a child rather than breastfeeding... :|

I have met men who still believe that men are better drivers and will argue it to the point of enraging. I even had a woman on a forum rage at me that I just couldn't accept men were better drivers...

They may be jokes some of the time but if you hear them 24/7 they get demoralising and tiring. I can't tell you how many time I have heard the sandwich joke this past year.

I am getting kind of sick of it.

your first point wasn't what i was arguing about,but i will agree that is something that is stupid and shouldn't be gender based, if a woman is working just as hard as me at a job, i would be pissed if she wasn't getting the same wages i was (if we were hired same time/same shifts/ no loop hole kind of stuff)

and yeah there is a formula, but i know tons of peoples babies who end up puking it back up constantly because they can't stomach the formula, even medically prescribed formula's don't always work.

and for every chauvanistic douchebag i have met, i have met just the same number of women that do nothing but put me down because of my sex, and consider any opinion i have is less than theirs because i "don't understand", should i be an anti-feminist then? hell no, and I can't tell you how many times i have heard a woman ***** at me for holding the door open for her or letting her have the seat on the shuttle bus instead of me taking it myself, when in fact it had nothing to do with her being a woman, but me just being polite to another human being.

I am also getting kind of sick of it, yeah, but in fact those examples i just gave aren't jokes, and the sandwich thing? a joke is a joke, no matter what way you spin it, if you honestly believe that all males think every woman should be chained to the kitchen being a sandwich making machine gun all day, then you are "really fooling" yourself.

If i met you in person i would be too tempted to troll you based on the fact of how nit picky you are over the most self pitying things to have come through this last decade or two, which is probably why you hear the "sandwich" joke more often than not.

 

[drisky]

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

This one works both ways, a man is considered less of a man if he is the one to stay at home instead of the women.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

I have seen none of this. Now a days media treats children pretty equal. Any ads about children being active are equal in gender, and it is generally believed that women are better with social skills and support so they are certainly encouraged to be outgoing.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

I've never seen this happen. Most teachers are women and do not discriminate. I have heard of teachers being sexist both ways, but this sort of thing hasn't happened in a long time I think.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

We are still measured by the amount of sex we have, its just the other way around in that we are losers for not having enough sex, or even not wanting it.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

Like Number 12, it is considered shameful to change your name or even let your wife keep hers. Its another example of society forcing us to show our dominance. Not really as bad as losing a name but its still a societal pressure that works both ways.

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

On a personal note I get this constantly. Also men get far more criticism for crying, women do to though with the for mentioned add ons of it being "just what women do" or "time of the month".

Now that I got that out of the way, the most important things like finical stability and power and all that are still very much male, which is wrong of course. But social double standards and exceptions effect both of us. Those who do not fit in to dictated gender roles see it more, there is a lot of pressure to conform. But its can be hard to see the other side some times. We can't know the things said behind our backs for example but its hard to ignore all the people trying to tell you how to "be a man" or "act more lady like". But since bad social standards affect both, it's the things we can change like equal pay in the work force that we work on now. Social norms are something that we have to fight against over time, making it better for both of us.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

If i met you in person i would be too tempted to troll you based on the fact of how nit picky you are over the most self pitying things to have come through this last decade or two, which is probably why you hear the "sandwich" joke more often than not.

I actually didn't write that list a man did.

I am kind of bored of repeating myself now. Its hilarious how people are focusing on proving me wrong rather than the OP...

Kind of proves my point in the end doesn't it.

These threads are so super.
Prepare for most people here to agree with you.

I understand your pain, I hate it when previously oppressed people get a few double standards in their favour too. What'll they want next, equal rights? Pfft...

This post seems particularly relevant now.

 

[Nisselue]

I do not understand this whole men earn more than woman argument thingie so could someone enlighten me on this issue?

Are you saying a man and a woman who have the same education, the same job, the same amount of experience and working in the same building as equals. The man will earn more money in the US of A than a woman?

In Norway a woman and a man earns the exact same amount of money as long as they got the same experience, education and job.

But women do have it worse off than men...Women will earn less again than the short man you mention...

I don't see how pointing that out when someone is arguing the opposite is wrong.

I find it interesting that mostly people have picked up on my post rather than argue with the male OP for example.

Again is this really true? If it is true that women earn less than men then why aren't everyone hiring women? It would be a cheaper workforce and they would earn a lot more money which is good business. They would be overpricing the male workforce which would be stupid if they can actually pay them the same amount as women.

In Norway the only reason a woman usualy earns less than men is because most woman work for the governement (educational sector,health sector) while men mostly work for the private sector (engineers, oil rigs etc). But women who decide to work as an engineer would earn just as much as the male counterpart and men who works as nurses earns just as much as the female counterpart.

So again does woman truly earn less than men or do they usualy just work in sectors who has a lower wage than male dominated sectors? (which usualy contains risks like death?)

 

[Torrasque]

Yup. Its getting to be the same with most minorities nowadays.
Black only clubs/events/scholarships/etc are perfectly fine. A white only one would be racist.
Its not okay to mock homosexuals because its what they are yet its okay to mock jocks and manly men which is pure fucking stupidity.
Someone also recently commented to me on this very forum that the world is still sexist because theres only 20% of women CEOs... Yeah, because its the worlds fault that not as many women have the drive, the qualifications, the intellect or even just the desire to make it to the top... and why should everything have to be 50/50? -.-;

Long story short, no one wants true equality. They just want their group to be on top and are not above using shit that happened hundreds of years ago, shit that has absolutely nothing to do with them, to justify their stupid, petty demands.

I agree with you, and l love your AA link, that vid always makes me lol.
Where I disagree, is your point about women CEOs.
There is sexism in the job market, its not because of qualifications, it is legitimately sexism.
I would like to say that I want everything to be 50:50 with the sexes, but I don't really want that.
There are some jobs that I prefer men for, and others I prefer women for.
What I whole-heartedly want, is for the sex of the person doing any job ever to not matter at all, or affect their ability to do their job.

Also, I agree OP, the sexism towards men these days is pretty bad.
Was it worse than it was towards women in the past? Hard to say. Women can talk bad about us these days with little to no reprecussion, but in the past, a man was expected to abuse his wife. Thats pretty bad.

 

[drisky]

If i met you in person i would be too tempted to troll you based on the fact of how nit picky you are over the most self pitying things to have come through this last decade or two, which is probably why you hear the "sandwich" joke more often than not.

I actually didn't write that list a man did.

I am kind of bored of repeating myself now. It hilarious how people are focusing on proving me wrong rather than the OP...

Kind of proves my point in the end doesn't it.

Kind of does but male dominated forums and more points to pick apart on that list so what are you going to do *shrug*. The OP made a week argument, only talking about media double standards, which don't matter because they are built around what sells. I can be offended by theses slim jim commercials that have been running on the escapist about "male spice loss" all I want but if guys are buying in to it there is nothing I can do. That is just advertising. We need to collectively ignore bad advertising if we want it to stop.

 

[Talshere]

But women cant have certain types of jobs? Its utter bull.

So women can work on the front line or in the special forces? Even though it's been proven they can pass the training? Don't think so. Women find it difficult to break into certain job areas becuase society pushes them towards certain careers. It is getting better with science being promoted to girls for example but you still don't see many women in those professions.

Of course this thread only touches on Europe and the US, I would feel nervous as a woman to travel outside those areas while a man can pretty much go anywhere and still be treated the same by normal society.

Women are hardly taking over the world as the OP claims.

Using the middle east and Asia are redundant. Asia because we understand far FAR to little of their various cultures to makes a judgement of any kind at any point in their history, and the middle east because its dominated by people who think their invisible friend placed men above women. You cant argue with religious zelots. We cont even do it in the west. Western society has simply developed to the point when idiots like the westbro baptists no longer hold any serious sway. We can only assume this will eventually happen with Hinduism and Islam. Ironically Sikhism and Buddhism both share fairly high views on women, though the rules surrounding female monks are somewhat complex. It was felt that women had far more to give up them men in joining the order so they have far more rules. Even by modern day standards its generally considered that its virtually impossible for anyone to live up to these rules, though there is a "half stage" of monk that has come about that women commonly take that share similar rules.

I digress. We cannot apply religious views onto the treatment of women. They even more outdated than that list of yours. Im fairly sure somewhere in the old tesitment its sanctions the taking of slaves.

Women on the front line is a...Complex and delicate subject :/ As you well know. They could put the troop at risk because the men feel more compelled to protect them subconsciously (we are evolutionary/sociotly compulsed to do this). Its not really something that can be trialled easily. As your list points out, a man captured in combat can only be subjected to certain thing. Given the religious affiliation of just about ever was fought now we can assume they wont be raped. Women given their high standing in that particular culture almost certainly will be. Repeatedly, and will likely leave the experience not only mentally traumatised, physically abused (far more so than men in both cases since rape of all types is both) but could walk away with a child. If she remains in captivity long, abuse suffered while pregnant could lead to fatal complications that a man simply cant have. You also have the problem that if she does give birth in captivity that the CHILD will then likely be abused in some way for its entire life if not killed out right. This goes into all sort of moral quandaries about should we, they be allowed to potentially risk the life of a rape child because she was allowed on the front line etc.. This goes doubly for spec ops units are they largely operate behind enemy lines and if one is captured they will likely never be seen again. Men may face a week of torture and death. Women potentially face the life of an abused sex slave.


Bah. You deliberattly mentioned this because its blatant discrimination that is socially accepted by all but is mired in contravercy. As a point. I have long hair down to my lower back. I considered joining the forces at one point. Not only did I discover I could not sign up to a "none front line position, as that would be dependant on current need and the discretion of my officers" but that I would HAVE to have my hair shaved off

I didnt want front line, I didnt want to lose my hair. Women might not get to be on the front line, but men dont exactly get a choice either...

 

[Iron Mal]

Well in comparison to 'we get made fun of in adverts'

Let's do a deconstructive run down and tearing up of your list then.

Spoiler: Round 2....FIGHT!

1.My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

-Compared to the fact that there are also instances where male jobs will be terminated or entry requirements will be lowered specifically for women to allow more female candidates to enter a role (have personally observed this in the Fire and Rescue service in the UK)

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won?t think I got my job because of my sex ? even though that might be true.

-Compared to the notion that men are apparantly easy to manipulate and control just because we're all horny animals who can't keep it in our pants.

3. If I am never promoted, it?s not because of my sex.

-If we chose not to promote you then it must be because we're discriminating against you and openly sexist (not because we felt someone else was better suited to the job)

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won?t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex?s capabilities.

-If a man fails at a job or career then there's no widespread sympathy or solidarity about 'the plights of men', it is his fault and his fault alone.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. .

-I am far more likely to accused of sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers (and to be accused of sexual harassment and cistimisation in general).


7. If I?m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low.

-If I am a man the odds of action actually being taken if I am sexually assaulted are relatively low (not to mention the fact that so many men are afraid to come foward about such incidents because of the 'demasculinating' effects of such a confession).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

-I am generally more likely to actually be attacked when walking alone after dark and in public places if I am a male between the ages of 16-24 (in the UK at least anyway).


9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

-Ok, I haven't heard that many cases of women's femininity being called into question because they refuse to have children (in fact, more often than not I have seen young women praised for not having children and choosing to focus on their education) so I have to call bullshit on this one outright.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

-If I father a child and do not provide any care at all then I am automatically a 'deadbeat' and a 'loser' regardless of circumstance or intent.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I?ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I?m even marginally competent.

-I'll rarely find myself being able to provide primary care for them, in the event of a seperation or divorce then my female partner will in most cases be given custody over my children unless there's a serious reason not to.

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I?m selfish for not staying at home.

-If I have children and am currently unemployed (or currently looking for work) then I will be viewed negatively as failing as a provider and (by proxy) as a father regardless of how much time or attention I give my children.


15. When I ask to see ?the person in charge,? odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

-When considering promoting people to higher positions I must not only consider how skilled or talented an individual is but now I must take care to make sure I don't even look like I'm being discriminatory lest someone potentially start a complaint against me.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

-As a child I didn't recieve as many programes and schemes in school to try and 'give me a helping hand' because it was just naturally assumed I'd do alright.

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children?s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists are the default.

-As time has progressed female and gender neutral programming has become much more popular and widespread (especially with new sources such as the internet and video games).

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

-As a child it was automatically assumed that i'd be more of a trouble maker just because I had to the misfortune to be born with a penis.

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

-If I have a problem or grief with a person then I never have to worry about my personal problems and criticisms of them being mistaken for discrimination and sexist remarks.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

-Women can too, next?

21. If I?m careless with my financial affairs it won?t be attributed to my sex.

-If I'm careless with my finacial status then it'll probably be because 'men are stupid'.

22. If I?m careless with my driving it won?t be attributed to my sex.

-If I'm careless with my driving then I'll likely be seen as a young, douchebag 'boy racer'.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

-Every time I speak out about a public issue I don't feel the need to represent my sex and bring it up so much as if it is something that my arguement hinges on (seriously, I have heard people before use the statement 'speaking as a woman' as if it lends more validity to what they say).

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a ?slut,? nor is there any male counterpart to ?slut-bashing.?

-Except for perhaps calling men sexist, horny, pigs who think with their dicks and only want to be with a woman for one thing and that apparantly all the good men (the ones who actually care and are nice guys) are either taken or gay (not an uncommon view, I assure you).

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

-I don't have to worry about being taken as a potential rapist or creep just for showing interest.

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women?s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman?s without tailoring.

-I have less in the way of options avaliable in terms of clothing and choosing bright, elaborate or designer clothing and I am allowed to be more unique and outgoing with what I wear without fear of having my sexuality called into question.

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

-Taking too much care in terms of my physical apperance means I must be gay, take too little and I must be a slob.

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I?ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.

-When I go to get insurance as a young male it will most often cost me more because of the stereotype of reckless young, male drivers.

29. If I?m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

-If I'm not conventionally handsome then I don't have tits or arse to fall back on.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

-Yeah, we just call it being an 'arsehole' and a 'thug' insted.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called ?crime? and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called ?domestic violence? or ?acquaintance rape,? and is seen as a special interest issue.)

-Men as a general rule are more likely to be the victims of assault (I myself have been one of these men) and face a greater amount of trouble getting help for instances of sexual asault or domestic abuse.

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. ?All men are created equal,? mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

-Language has been changed in order to be more inclusive of women over time, e.g: fire fighter, police officer, chair person, 'they' insted of 'he' and 'people' insted of 'men'.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

-Men don't get a 'time of the month' excuse for being short tempered and otherwise unpleasant to others.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don?t change my name.

-The whole name changing thing (and marriage itself) are slowly changing anyway so there you go.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

-I don't have to carry a child around for nine monthes (something that for some women can be potentially debilitating) so go figure why that happens.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

-I'm an Athiest, we don't discriminate based on sex (neither does Agnosticism) and a lot of western cultures tend to favour secularism over theocracy.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

-Again, not a religious man myself so I'm not even gonna try and defend religious doctrine.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we?ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

-This is also slowly changing with the rising instances of househusbands and just the plain presence of guys who are clearly whipped (which...er...probably includes myself).

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

-Also a changing trend in more modern times with the 'balance of power' in relationships actually becoming more balanced.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we?ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

-Yet again, another changing trend (have you actually been keeping up to date with current events?) where a lot of households are now making the choice of who should look after the kids based on who earns more (which makes more sense).

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

-I am hetrosexual and a lot of the time this imagery tends to come across to a large number of men as insulting and derogitory (again, we're not all sex-fiends who are incapable of keeping our urge to ejaculate inside something female out of our day-to-day decision making), images of men in such a fashion rarely (if ever) gets such a defense despite it being just as exploitative.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. . If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

-If I am a man then I'm under just as much stress about my appearance (with other equivilents like having to worry about how muscular and strong I am, how big or long my penis is and other concerns regarding how others see me) but face greater consequences for openly being seen as concerned about these issues (as such, cases of male annorexia and bulimia is horrifically under-reported).

43. If I am heterosexual, it?s incredibly unlikely that I?ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover.

-Men who are physically or emotionally abused are told to just 'suck it up' and 'deal with it' because 'that's what men do', as such, little or no sympathy or support is given to battered or tormented husbands and they often have to suffer in silence (as such, we never hear about it).

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to ?smile.?

-And you don't get random strangers telling you that 'the invasion has begun' either, people are weird (and besides, it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile).

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.

-Do I need to mention how the most common victims of street crime are 16-24 year old unemployed white males? That means I'm in more danger of being attacked in the street than you are (I'm presuming that you're a woman).

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

-You haven't spoken to my mother (or my sister or any female relative I have for that matter).

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

-Just as I am alledgedly unaware of the privileges of being white, in other words, I am damn well aware and if I wasn't then rest assured that I get quite a few reminders from people who don't seem to remember how much better things are now than they were say 50 years ago (yeah, remember when beating your wife was socially acceptable and when you were frowned upon for even having your own money?).

Rest assured, being white and male doesn't automatically give me a free pass in life, you may like to harp on about how hard women (or in the cases where it's been the topic of racism, minorities) have it but at the end of the day, everyone has it hard and everyone has stereotypes and discrimination set against them in some way. You are not special just because you happen to experience your brand of it, sick of seeing scantily clad women on billboards and magazines?

I'm sick of always being treated like the brain in my head takes a backseat to the one apparantly located by my balls.

Now before you start taking all of this to heart and become offended allow me to explain just why I went through your list and offered counterarguements to everything you said. I'm not trying to say that women don't have it hard (hell, I'm just as eager as anyone for women to be able to enjoy the same freedoms and privelages that everyone should be freely entitled to) but what I am saying is that no-one (and I mean absolutely no-one) should try to imply that they have it harder than anyone else because, frankly, it's bullshit most of the time.

Of course we believe that our struggles are harder than other people's, we experience them first hand. To me the plights of being a white male probably seem more prominant and difficult than you would believe because, well, you don't have the experience of actually being me just as it would be unfair of me to say that my troubles are worse than yours because I haven't had the oppertunity to see things through your eyes and experience your troubles (I'll admit, there were certain points on that list I couldn't come up with a defence for, but then I could also have raised a list of double standards held against men by women, but that's not what my response was about).

So can we please put away this petty 'my people have it harder than your people' dick-measuring (male stereotype there) bullshit?

You guys really don't understand how much better you have it.

Some of us have it better, but not all of us live in great wealth and prosperity, try to remember that.

 

[Talshere]

snip

Ive been reading some people "counter lists" and just thought of an interesting fact I know. "The list" generally suggests that women are more subservient in the relationship. Recent studies suggest there there is a very VERY strong trend that the most dominant member of the relationship publicly, will be more subservient in private, and this goes doubly so for the bedroom

I thought, "wtf how do you figure that?" when I heard that. Then I thought about all the people in relationships I know and snipits of convo you heard or that get round and suddenly the whole thing came into context XD

EDIT: Also, historically, the London burrows unlike the rest of the UK and indea the world were noted for the fact that they were Matriarchal. Men used to get paid, come home, hand it over to the woman of the house, who in turn dished out an allowance. Studies and documentaries have been given over to studies this strange phenomenon.

These threads are so super.
Prepare for most people here to agree with you.

I understand your pain, I hate it when previously oppressed people get a few double standards in their favour too. What'll they want next, equal rights? Pfft...

This post seems particularly relevant now.

Give some credit. Some of us justify it far better than others If worse spelt

 

[intheweeds]

I do not understand this whole men earn more than woman argument thingie so could someone enlighten me on this issue?

Are you saying a man and a woman who have the same education, the same job, the same amount of experience and working in the same building as equals. The man will earn more money in the US of A than a woman?

In Norway a woman and a man earns the exact same amount of money as long as they got the same experience, education and job.

But women do have it worse off than men...Women will earn less again than the short man you mention...

I don't see how pointing that out when someone is arguing the opposite is wrong.

I find it interesting that mostly people have picked up on my post rather than argue with the male OP for example.

Again is this really true? If it is true that women earn less than men then why aren't everyone hiring women? It would be a cheaper workforce and they would earn a lot more money which is good business. They would be overpricing the male workforce which would be stupid if they can actually pay them the same amount as women.

In Norway the only reason a woman usualy earns less than men is because most woman work for the governement (educational sector,health sector) while men mostly work for the private sector (engineers, oil rigs etc). But women who decide to work as an engineer would earn just as much as the male counterpart and men who works as nurses earns just as much as the female counterpart.

So again does woman truly earn less than men or do they usualy just work in sectors who has a lower wage than male dominated sectors? (which usualy contains risks like death?)

In Canada(where I am from) and in the U.S. it is statistically true. Of course as with anything that is not the case at all in some workplaces and in others it is brutal and overt. I'm a female chef for instance, it is very hard for me. So, not to say 'yes, women always make less', but statistically on the whole it is true.

 

[orangeban]

I suspect that it's really as bad for both. I read something saying sexism against both genders is connected. For every bumbling male in a sitcom, there tends to be a strict up-tight wife. For every stick-thin female model there tends to be a chisel-jawed man.

 

[D0WNT0WN]

Im looking forward to the point in time where women have to fight to get to be a stay at home wifes, mothers and fit into generally girly stereotypess instead of acting like men with vaginas.

 

[DJROC]

So again does woman truly earn less than men or do they usualy just work in sectors who has a lower wage than male dominated sectors? (which usualy contains risks like death?)

Yes, in the United States women truly earn less than men.

"By looking at a very specific and detailed sample of workers (graduates of the University of Michigan Law School) economists Robert Wood, Mary Corcoran and Paul Courant were able to examine the wage gap while matching men and women for many other possible explanatory factors - not only occupation, age, experience, education, and time in the workforce, but also childcare, average hours worked, grades while in college, and other factors. Even after accounting for all that, women still are paid only 81.5% of what men "with similar demographic characteristics, family situations, work hours, and work experience" are paid."

Apologies in advance, Talshere, I don't mean to pick on you. You happened to be the first list I saw when I went to make my reply on these issues.

1:Men are both more likely to apply for positions above there own and/or ask for promotions or pay increases. I studied this in Alevel phycology. Many studies were devoted this this area as it as desirable to know why men were often paid more for women for the same job. Quite simply, them men who were on more virtually universally asked for more money, or were actively job hunting at the time of the pay rise/promotion. Only women can fix this problem.

This point and a similar one has been brought up multiple times. The fact that women do not apply for certain positions or do not haggle for higher pay seem to me an indication that they are pre-emptively discouraged to apply or negotiate to the point that they simply do not. That is a social issue and not "woman's problem".

2: Cases of male domestic abuse in the UK is going through the roof. Its becoming a serious problem according to police statistic, though truly they have no idea exactly how extensive it may be. There is such a massive stigma to being an "abused husband", that virtually no-one reports it and cases that are clear cut and in several cases have even been caught on camera by police have failed to go to court as the male refuses to press charges due to this stigma.

Now listen to yourself. You said that "Only women can fix this problem" of them earning less, implying that it's not a sexist issue. Yet when discussing the sexist issue of men being socially pressured not to press charges in abuse cases (in much the same way that women do not haggle for increased pay?), I see no mention that men shouldn't complain about it because it's their own fault for not reporting abuse.

4: I have actively changed my course on the street, avoided certain areas at certain times of day to avoid in-order to avoid being attacked in the street. On 2 occasions this has failed and I have been forced to defend myself. My brother ended up in hospital after being attacked by 15 kids. In both cases, we had valuables on use to the the worth of several hundreds pounds in phones's bike's etc, that were not taken. We were simply attacked for the hell of it. Some imagined slight. When was the last time someone threatened to kick the shit out of you because you knocked elbows on the street by accident? Yeah, thought not.

Two evenings ago I insisted on driving my lady friend and her bike home because she had ridden over in the early evening and had stayed until eleven at night. Not because we live in a unsafe area where there was a high chance of incident, but simply because I was socially conditioned to be concerned for her safety at the prospect of her being out, alone, after dark. During the drive, she very rightly pointed out that I take "late night walks all the time" and that this was a "double standard". I agreed.


This is not to "refute" your point, but simply to respond to it.

7: It is fairly normal these days for parties to elect to keep their names on marriage. I believe someone noted that he suggested he change his name when he was looking to get engaged, and was ridiculed by all. Male and Female. So don't sponge that off on men. Its a societal problem.

I believe the point is that there is an inference that a woman who does not take her husband's name is somehow more independent and less devoted than a woman who takes her husband's name. In the opposite, it is a point of ridicule for men to take their wive's names.

Why is this? Because taking someone else's name is considered a mark of subservience which is socially expected of women and unbecoming of men.

I actually know a gentleman who took his wife's name. I admire him for it.

My point ultimately is this: yes, men do suffer from certain social stigmas but we need to look at the reasons why. Much of the time, it is because those actions are so closely associated with women, and sub-social-consciously associated with weakness and subservience. Thus, these stigmas against men- while they are sexist and harmful towards egalitarianism- are actually designed to ensure that men keep their status and power, while those stigmas targeting women are designed to keep women subservient. That is a very powerful and fundamental difference to remember in this back and forth when asking, "Who has it worse?"

 

[Evidencebased]

I find it very interesting that so many people point-by-point "rebutting" the Male Privilege list are responding to many of the points either by saying "sadly this is true" or "is this true? Then that would suck" -- you guys realize you're agreeing with a lot of the list, right? The list is just examples of ways that men generally have it easier than women; if everyone agrees that many of the points are true, then why so much fussing at Jessica?

Women are paid less (yes, even taking into account training and occupation type), face more rape and sexual harassment, are vastly underrepresented in government and the military, and are still the butt of many smaller injustices such as demands from perfect strangers or from bosses to wear makeup or "smile" or lose weight. This doesn't mean men are terrible and evil, it means that men should keep in mind the little bit of extra crap women have to put up with on a daily basis and acknowledge that women are still not treated with perfect equality in this world.

Also... many of the things that hurt men? Feminists (including male feminists) strongly oppose. Feminists are very keen on granting men paternity leave, and on allowing men to stay home with the kids if they like, and fully encourage letting women take on some of the burdens men face (like military service, or financial support of the family.) Feminists have historically fought for men and women to be treated equally in media -- more male characters as love interests (because men should get to feel sexy and wanted too!) and more female characters as villains or idiots or heroes. Feminists have also fought for girls and women to feel more comfortable in their own sexuality, which helps men and women immensely (are you heterosexual dudes gonna complain that women are more enthusiastic about sex now? )

So really, even trying to change things to benefit women will also benefit men. That's why it's about equality -- when everyone gets to do the jobs they like, and earn what they deserve, and play whatever family role they want, both men and women will be better off.