Sexism...society or human nature?

[Vault101]

[snip >__>

well I dont think I'm "bad" per se...Im good at games I play alot (I was quite the yoshis island pro back in the day...and mass effect 2) ..but Im pretty average comapred to most people online

anyway I know games nowdays lack challenge...because I get through them withotu too much hassle...but Im hardly the kind of person to breeze through a game (first try) and go "that was too easy"

-snip-

That's got to be some of the stupidest crap I've ever heard. If I were you, I would be extremely upset at whoever told me that. What basis do you even have for believing early humans were monogamous?

Anyway Vault, if various historians are to be believed, back in the day when humans were hunter-gatherers, there was no sexism. Women played a central role to survival. They gathered roots, fruits, berries and generally provided the staple meal. The men went hunting in an attempt to obtain much needed protein. If they failed they could always fall back on the food that was gathered by the women.
.

thats an interesting thourght...since it would seem to most people that that was one of the most sexist times ever (like calling assholes "cave men")

 

[Zen Toombs]

Anyways, in my opinion sexism is something mostly grown out of society. However, men and women ARE different, and that's okay. To ignore that is kindof silly - but that doesn't mean that women and men should be treated better or worse. It's just like race or hair color or whatever. There are differences, and they should be acknowledged, but those things don't make others better or worse. They just make them different, and different isn't bad.

That started to turn babbley, but I hope you get the idea.

I do think an important thing to ask though is which differences are biological and which are due to how one is raised and society's view on gender.

I think most are from culture or society. Some of it could be biological, but most would be societal. Biological differences are like... guys being stronger than girls on average and taller on average, or like girls having to deal with pregnancy and bleeding once a month, or like the effects of standard testosterone/estrogen/other hormone levels. Those have some effect, but nowhere near the effect we see thanks to society.

Yeah, I agree with that. But sometimes I see people throw out that acknowledge the differences thing in places that it really doesn't fit if they were to more accurately assess what actually does come from gender. Not to say you do it, but the phrasing just reminded me of times I'd seen it misused by people who just assumed certain differences were just biological.

I totally hear that. It's a great excuse for sexism or racism or .... hatism? Whatever. Anyways, it's a good excuse. However, that doesn't make the point less true. People ARE different, and to ignore that would be wrong. For example, say what you will about the concept of maternaty leave and whether guys should be allowed to have it,[footnote]Side note, I think guys should have it as well, but that's not relevant[/footnote] but there is a literal healing process involved post pregnancy. If anyone should be allowed to have free time off work it should be the new mother.

This one is amused by the fact that this one opened up the cracked article as this thread was loading, intending to leave it there. Now I have to do an actual response....

whats with the Hanar act?

This one does such things on occasion. This one was also amused by the Hanar deciding to mimick this one.

 

[Yopaz]

OK, so I don't want to sound like that guy, but isn't everything we do human nature?

A society is the product of human nature. Adapting to a society is human nature. Doing what the society wants is human nature. Sexism is human nature. If it is in our nature or if it's because of a society is hard to tell, but indirectly it's human nature.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

OK, so I don't want to sound like that guy, but isn't everything we do human nature?

A society is the product of human nature. Adapting to a society is human nature. Doing what the society wants is human nature. Sexism is human nature. If it is in our nature or if it's because of a society is hard to tell, but indirectly it's human nature.

There is such a thing as an environment. That as a factor has influenced the development of society enough to say that things beyond our nature define us today. Technology is often as dependent on luck and location as it is on the inventive. Society and human nature are different, but closely tied concepts.

 

[Yopaz]

OK, so I don't want to sound like that guy, but isn't everything we do human nature?

A society is the product of human nature. Adapting to a society is human nature. Doing what the society wants is human nature. Sexism is human nature. If it is in our nature or if it's because of a society is hard to tell, but indirectly it's human nature.

There is such a thing as an environment. That as a factor has influenced the development of society enough to say that things beyond our nature define us today. Technology is often as dependent on luck and location as it is on the inventive. Society and human nature are different, but closely tied concepts.

Sure, but how we respond to such things is human nature. Society is human nature put into a system. How we form a society on how a society works is human nature.

 

[Phasmal]

The ironic thing? Now we have the technology to find out who the father is once the child is born... and for some reason we don't do it automatically. Hell, try and get a girl to agree to it with out getting her upset, unless she's a true feminist she wont.

Feminist here.
If I had a baby and my boyfriend wanted a DNA test, I would give him one.
And when it proved the baby was his, he would be my ex.

Why?
Because we're living together, we've been together nearly 3 years and if the first thing he thinks of when I pop out a sprog is: `Well, I don't own her vagina 24/7 so it might not be mine` then he can kiss bye bye to the relationship.
I dont own my boyfriends dick but does that mean I have the right to swab his penis everytime he comes home? Cause logically he could have cheated on me in the time he was out.
But hey, try telling him that without him getting upset. If he truely wanted equality, he would let me swab his dick. Gotta keep track of them dicks.

---

OT: I think its society. I grew up in a pretty much all female house and I hadn't heard of `girls cant do X` til I was a bit older, so when I heard all the stupid stereotypes about women, I was confused.

 

[smartalec]

In the Western world, it's a Roman Empire thing, and later a Roman Catholic church thing (the latter more-or-less grew out of the former). There were certainly patriarchal cultures before these two institutions, but the Romans managed to spread the belief across the world that extreme patriarchy was the way things should be.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

That's pretty much all about how SOCIETY changes men's opinions of women.
And, to be fair, I can see their point. Pretty much every advert with a woman in it is about sex. Hell, I once saw a perfume ad which featured a woman walking around with her clothes LITERALLY falling off. All of them. At 5pm.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

The ironic thing? Now we have the technology to find out who the father is once the child is born... and for some reason we don't do it automatically. Hell, try and get a girl to agree to it with out getting her upset, unless she's a true feminist she wont.

Feminist here.
If I had a baby and my boyfriend wanted a DNA test, I would give him one.
And when it proved the baby was his, he would be my ex.

Why?
Because we're living together, we've been together nearly 3 years and if the first thing he thinks of when I pop out a sprog is: `Well, I don't own her vagina 24/7 so it might not be mine` then he can kiss bye bye to the relationship.
I dont own my boyfriends dick but does that mean I have the right to swab his penis everytime he comes home? Cause logically he could have cheated on me in the time he was out.
But hey, try telling him that without him getting upset. If he truely wanted equality, he would let me swab his dick. Gotta keep track of them dicks.

---

OT: I think its society. I grew up in a pretty much all female house and I hadn't heard of `girls cant do X` til I was a bit older, so when I heard all the stupid stereotypes about women, I was confused.

The only problem with the role reversal is he can't turn around and be able to convince you the child he had with another woman is actually yours, and keep you monetarily responsible for it... Unless one is really really dense.

Also hey, case by case basis. Sure YOU don't cheat on your boyfriend and I'm not saying everyone women does or that even most do. However, PEOPLE cheat. PEOPLE lie. It's idiotic that in this day and age with the technology we have we don't just do this automatically when the babies born, it does nothing more then protect not only the man from potentially getting fucked over (because yeah, they'll be stuck with that shit for life even if they find out later) and also- hey the child from being emotionally scarred if later they find out the man they thought was their father and grew attached to them suddenly resents them.

 

[AngloDoom]

I think it's a very natural condition for humans to want to stack things into neat little boxes to make it easier to sort. If a horse kicks you in the stomach when you're young, you're likely to file 'horses' under 'scary', and all subsequent horses come under 'scary'.

I don't think this explains why gendered stereotypes and sexism exist, just how it has continued for so long. I also think that these stereotypes are self-perpetuating in that people are more likely to put themselves in a neat little box or see certain behaviours as belonging to that said box in other people if they're aware of them.

That said there are variations between men and women, so perhaps the root cause is biology, the fact that the stereotypes still live on is based on the way we remember things and the society we live in.

 

[Phasmal]

The only problem with the role reversal is he can't turn around and be able to convince you the child he had with another woman is actually yours, and keep you monetarily responsible for it... Unless one is really really dense.

Also hey, case by case basis. Sure YOU don't cheat on your boyfriend and I'm not saying everyone women does or that even most do. However, PEOPLE cheat. PEOPLE lie. It's idiotic that in this day and age with the technology we have we don't just do this automatically when the babies born, it does nothing more then protect not only the man from potentially getting fucked over (because yeah, they'll be stuck with that shit for life even if they find out later) and also- hey the child from being emotionally scarred if later they find out the man they thought was their father and grew attached to them suddenly resents them.

People do cheat and lie, and if you have a GOOD REASON to believe your mate has cheated and it resulted in pregnancy then you should do a DNA test, but you should not just do one if you have no proof/reason to believe that they had cheated.

If you resent the kid, there is something wrong with you. Its not the kids fault.

 

[Candidus]

>>Argument for DNA screening at birth in order to ensure that responsibility for the child is owed by the male party of a relationship goes here<<

Good stuff.

I read as much of your argument with that knee-jerk reaction guy as I could stomach before my eyes hurt with all the rolling they were doing. I see your point. I've been in a relationship that involved a miscarry, and even though I'm certain that the child was mine, I still wouldn't have minded a DNA test for peace of mind. It isn't about trust at all, it's about being on the same level as my partner, who knows without a doubt.

Also, that relationship did eventually end badly. While I was certain that the child was mine and content to sweep the desire for a piece of paper vindicating that certainty under the rug as 'silly' while we were together, I'd have felt differently right now if I were paying so much child support that I couldn't possibly court another partner or move on with my life (this happened to a friend of my Dad's), while she was living in our old house, with custody and perhaps a new partner, for a total of TWO adult wages plus my child support...

Yeah, I imagine that and suddenly, being able to ask for a test that means I can be as sure as my partner is able to be that the child is mine seems much more vital. Those circumstances would be (and are, for too many men) horrible and unjust in any and all cases, but I wouldn't be able to bear them at all if I had any doubt. I'd quit my job in a heartbeat.

Since we have the technology, why not use it to erase all doubt for both parties? What's the problem? Are the men who put their trust in the wrong woman not deserving of this simple, automatic protection? To those who would say no... What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Candidus]

If you resent the kid, there is something wrong with you. Its not the kids fault.

The point he's trying to make is that it's not about resentment in the case that you find out the child isn't yours, it's about paternal responsibility- specifically, money. Most men who fall out of a long term relationship are on the losing end of settlements, that's a sad but simple FACT, cut and dried.

Every man should have the right to the simple protection of an automatic DNA test at (ostensibly) his child's birth, before he signs papers of paternal responsibility. Child support payments, particularly those expected of working class men who already have so little disposable income (if they're single and supporting themselves) can be crippling- I've seen it first hand. There's no way society should be able to do that to someone without concrete evidence; a piece of paper, with the truth on it in black and white.

And I don't mean the poor man's signature, written down on trust alone.

In before "assuming the worst". Legislature like this in the hypotheticals I've described would be about how we handle the worst, specifically how we even the playing field for men and protect them from illegitimate claims. But in general this idea is about how we dispense justice to both sides of a relationship, whether that relationship is ongoing and strong or has collapsed in the past. This is not some broader philosophical statement about the state of peoples' companionships or trust in general, and that sort of hyperbole doesn't make a compelling argument against the simplicity and security of just enforcing a test.

 

[Phasmal]

If you resent the kid, there is something wrong with you. Its not the kids fault.

The point he's trying to make is that it's not about resentment in the case that you find out the child isn't yours, it's about paternal responsibility- specifically, money. Most men who fall out of a long term relationship are on the losing end of settlements, that's a sad but simple FACT, cut and dried.

Every man should have the right to the simple protection of an automatic DNA test at birth, before he signs papers of paternal responsibility. Child support payments, particularly those expected of working class men who already have so little disposable income (if they're single and supporting themselves) can be crippling- I've seen it first hand. There's no way society should be able to do that to someone without concrete evidence; a piece of paper, with the truth on it in black and white.

And I don't mean the poor man's signature, written down on trust alone.

In before "assuming the worst". Legislature like this in the hypotheticals I've described would be about how we handle the worst, specifically how we even the playing field for men and protect them from illegitimate claims. But in general this idea is about how we dispense justice to both sides of a relationship, whether that relationship is ongoing and strong or has collapsed in the past. This is not some broader philosophical statement about the state of peoples' companionships or trust in general, and that sort of hyperbole doesn't make a compelling argument against the simplicity and security of just enforcing a test.

I'm absolutely not against a man who has doubts getting a DNA test.
However, I resent the implication that cause a woman has autonomy over her own vagina, every man should have at least some level of doubt.
The majority of men would not need this test, and putting it in to practice for everyone would just be a massive waste of money. I agree that men who have doubts should have the right to a test, and if a relationship splits up and a man may be forced to pay child support then he should absolutely request a DNA test if he wants one.

I feel sorry for the women whose partners are ready with the swab as soon as the cord is cut when they have done nothing untrustworthy. I don't know about them, but I wouldn't put up with that shit.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'd go for societal. Sexism isn't a given, people can decide to limit their sexism if they want, but society doesn't encourage this as much as it could.

 

[Candidus]

I'm absolutely not against a man who has doubts getting a DNA test.
However, I resent the implication that cause a woman has autonomy over her own vagina, every man should have at least some level of doubt.
The majority of men would not need this test, and putting it in to practice for everyone would just be a massive waste of money. I agree that men who have doubts should have the right to a test, and if a relationship splits up and a man may be forced to pay child support then he should absolutely request a DNA test if he wants one.

I feel sorry for the women whose partners are ready with the swab as soon as the cord is cut when they have done nothing untrustworthy. I don't know about them, but I wouldn't put up with that shit.

Actually, I'd be fine with it if a test performed after a split made all payments by the man up until then refundable by the woman. Then I'd say forget it at birth, because it can still be undertaken when it really matters, and injustices can be undone retroactively.

As it stands though, finding out you aren't the father after the fact doesn't help you at all- and that's fucked up.

On topic-- for the first time in the thread, my bad-- I want to put it down to society, but I'm not sure why I want to say that yet. I'll have to think about it a little more before I expound.