SEXISM! What's with the standards?

[Darius Brogan]

I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

In what way does that imply that they're important to me?

There are degrees of importance. The use of the word "want" implies a degree of importance.

Regardless, we are bickering over semantics. You asked for opinions, you got opinions. You don't care that I think you're a fabulist, and I don't care if you are a fabulist. I just think it's funny, that's all.

The perceived importance of an opinion has no bearing on its validity or the quality of its information.

You could be the president of the US, and your opinion would be no more important than the potato farmer coming in from Idaho.

 

[Darius Brogan]

Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete *****, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

 

[Darius Brogan]

EDIT: Oh yes, just for the record, He didn't 'leave anything out' of his story, and I didn't 'Miss anything' because I was there. Right there, in person. When she went off her rocker and decided she was going to sue. If I hadn't been tthere, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

I don't believe you. Without some evidence, I don't believe a decision that large would have been made if that were the only incident and if you gave all the details.

Also I know men who have successfully complained about sexual harassment so you are wrong on that front too.

As I've stated numerous times before: I don't care if you believe me, because I know it's true. I feel no need to lie in real life, so why would the internet be any different?.

And I never said anything about guys never successfully filing suit, did I? No. I pointed out a double standard.

If it applies to both sides then it isn't a double standard.

edit: Oh thank god! Keep Solve media instead of Captcha ("accidentally on purpose" lol)

The double standard is that women complain about sexism all the time, and it gets attention, fact-time etc... but it's not manly for a guy to complain about the same.

I would imagine sexism is sexism, but apparently guys don't have the right to be offended or hurt by sexism, because it makes them pansies.

 

[pffh]

But for every man who loses his job due to a false claim, ten men sexually harass at the workplace and face no repercussions. For ever man who gets thrown in jail for a false rape claim, one hundred men rape and then go free. For every man who loses his kids in a divorce, ten beat their wives to death before she even has the chance to speak to a lawyer.

Ever heard of the Blackstone formulation?

"It's better to let ten guilty men walk free than to punish one innocent man."

It´s easy to say the opposite of that until you are the innocent man being punished.


OT: Sexism goes both ways. There are both misandrists and misogynists out there and just because one exists does not give use the right to ignore the other. Just because women receive some privilege does not mean that men lose the same privilege just as even if women are treated unfairly in some situation does not make it okay to treat men unfairly in other situations. What should be done is work towards equality for everyone no matter what.

Not to mention that many (not all though) cases of misandry are also cases of misogyny. "Domestic abuse can't happen to men because women aren't strong enough to abuse men" vs "dude suck it up. Real men don't get abused by girls" or " The woman must raise the children instead of the man since she's better suited for it, being a woman and all" vs "Men aren't as good as raising children" or "Women can't rape men since they are to small and weak" vs "Dude you got to have sex why are you complaining? Are you a pussy?"

 

[spartan231490]

I don't recall asking to "still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable" I'm asking for violence to be seen as violence, regardless of who the perpetrator/victim is.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong..

It doesn't really matter what you want, you are seen as more independent, you are seen as more physically capable. You are expected to react differently to violence because of what is between your legs.

This is not some disconnected abstract point. This is precisely why violence against you would be treated less severely than it would against someone female.

I pointed out that the gap is so massive that violence has been accepted as funny when it's perpetrated against a man, but as a nearly unforgivable crime when perpetrated against a women.

And who benefits?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. Who really benefits from that state of affairs? Who benefits from its perpetuation. Whose interests does it serve to have society still work like that?

Because you are insisting that there is some terrible prejudice against men here, when (taken as a whole) practically all the violence in our society, including the violence against men which is "accepted as funny", is perpetrated by men. So why are you fixating on violence against men by women as if it should somehow be treated differently? As if it should be special?

Are men prejudiced against themselves?

I have no opposition to getting my ass kicked, so long as no lasting damage is done to my body. Frankly, if someone went that far, I probably deserved it, and I think that our society in general needs to stop making a huge deal out of things that aren't that important, including a little innocent fighting.

So it's okay to apply the same definition to everyone, men and women? It's okay to kick their arses as long as they aren't permanently hurt? They probably deserved it anyway?

You don't see any problems with that?

Well frankly, I wasn't trying to say that men get the short end of the stick from society, I was simply pointing out that some things are prejudiced against men. I also pointed out that many things are prejudiced against women, so I'm not entirely sure why you quoted me the first time. But anyway, men aren't viewed to react differently to violence because of what's between their legs. In general, men are bigger, hardier, and stronger. That's a simple truth, and that is the reason that men are expected to react to violence differently, not because they have a penis.

And it is some disconnected abstract point. If your house is on fire, you don't start arguing about why it's on fire, or who the fire benefits the most, you call the fire department and put it out.


And I'm not the one who's saying that violence against men by women should be treated differently, I'm pointing out that it is treated differently and it shouldn't be. In fact, I'm also saying the same thing about violence against women by men. All violence should be treated the same.

As for who benefits, I don't really see that anyone does. Except that women can get away with slapping or even beating on a guy with almost no repercussions, but I don't see that as much of a benefit. You keep saying that most violence is perpetrated by men, but women do it too, and they should be treated the same.


I feel like there was a mis-understanding on this last part. I don't think it's ok to kick someone's ass, but even a single slap can technically be considered assault, and I don't believe it's fair to charge someone with a felony level crime just for giving someone a bruise. And yes, it is 100% ok to apply that definition to everyone.

I'm not talking about beating someone unconscious or breaking bones, I'm just talking about when an argument gets a little heated and a punch or two is thrown. This shouldn't be the serious crime that it is. I think that our society does this with a lot of things, but that's a separate issue. I don't think it should be a crime with the punishment that assault carries unless either A) serious harm was done, or B) there was the intent to do serious harm. That's all I was trying to say, and I feel the same way no matter who the participants are.

 

[Darius Brogan]

Judging by the tone of your story, your friend was a union employee. Having worked for several years in a management office for the discipline of all union employees under our contract, and having attended countless arbitration meetings, I can positively assure you of two things.

1. Women get preferential treatment during litigation proceedings concerning unions, due in large part to the effect that most Unions have a male and a female representative for their members, and the women is without question always the sharper on the paperwork side. 4

Which leads me to...

2. Arbitrators always go with the paperwork. They are not like normal judges. They look at all the paperwork put forward by both parties, and rule off that. If your friend had a clear and well viewed habit of perceived sexual harassment or negative behavior,

And rest assured, the FIRST thing management does in these cases is stop the office, cold. Then they spend a day or week, depending on the size, getting written statements from EVERY worker in that office, going back 365 days, or the "statute of limitations for discipline". If the witness statements show any behavior like what is being "grieved", they prepare the case for discipline. They also review the persons involved for past discipline, prior offenses, and previous issues. They then review the notes and evaluations of the manager or supervisory chain. They then, and only then, when discipline has been decided upon as a path, speak to the accused, with a union rep present. The person is interviewed, or "interrogated" as the manual writes it, to discern their story.

Then all information is accumulated and discipline is decided as yes or no. They then, based off previous similar cases and past history, estimate type and scope of discipline. This all is compiled in a disciplinary report, which, if the person decides to fight the discipline, is given to an arbitrator, in triplicate. The arbitrator then goes over the ENTIRE process again, which usually takes 4-6 months, unless fast tracked (NEVER HAPPENS, Arbs are paid by the hour) and the Arbitrator hands down a decision, and in that decision he or she says two things. Discipline is the correct path, or incorrect, and the proposed punishment is fair. If it is unfair, they can alter the scope, but not the type.

tl:dr - Sounds alot like 1. Your friend had a history of this type of behavior, well documented and well established, and 2. he made a REALLY shitty case for himself to management.

I'll admit freely that there's a lot I was never privy to in regards to his case, but I can say, with a clear conscience, that he'd never had any problems or complaints set against him before.

His case was weak specifically due to lack of experience in situations such as that, and he was taken apart because of it.

 

[spartan231490]

While we're on this topic, why is it that any MALE claiming sexual harassment is pretty much told to man-up and quit being a fucking pussy?

Yes, because everyone besides you is some faceless group that is just unfathomably inconsistent. How about the people who tell them to man up etc are sexists and not necessarily people who really care about equality? The people that say that kind of shit about manning up and people being pussies tend to be obnoxious, overly macho, and pretty clearly sexist.

What do you mean 'everyone besides me'?

I'm talking about how you're treating all the other attitudes you find in people as if they're supposed to be consistent with each other.

It's a prevalent mentality shared by a vast majority of the male and female genders, a number of whom have already exhibited, in my presence, their distaste for gender inequality.

Contradictions about in this society, and while they no longer surprise me at all, I'm still quite entitled to be curious as to why they've yet to die out.

Prevalent? Your evidence is what, your personal experience?

Frankly, evidence for this is everywhere. How many women have you met who have said the phrase: "All men are X" How many women have you met who haven't? How many Men have you met who have said "All women are Y" How many men have you met who haven't? How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh? I mean, frankly, this shouldn't even have to be addressed, you don't need to cite sources for common knowledge, look around.

You're hilarious. I don't see people explicitly say either of those first two. I sure see people come close on the second one sometimes around here.

That's surprising, I hear the phrase: "All men are pigs" several times a day. I've never actually heard the phrase: "all women are X" directly, but I heard the same idea in different words all the time as well. But those aren't the only examples, any legitimate look at our culture shows gender bias working both ways. Next time you go to a sit-down restaurant, actually look at how many of the servers are men/women. The overwhelming majority will be women. With construction workers, on the other hand, the reverse is true. I'm not saying which side has it worse off, I'm just saying that there are huge gender bias's in our culture and that this fact is so obvious that no sources are needed. He's not trying to prove anything because there's no proof needed. He's just relating his experiences on the subject and initiating a discussion.

Also, discussion forms are places for opinions and anecdotal evidence, not conclusive scientific proof. If there was conclusive scientific proof, there would be no discussion. It's like having a discussion about the existence of gravity. Everyone agrees, let's move on. It's not a discussion. There has to be uncertainty in order for there to be a discussion, and so you have to allow arguments to be made that aren't conclusive, otherwise you have no discussion.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete *****, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

Lol.
Independant does not mean closed off, but some people do take it to mean `a *****`.
So saying independant means being a ***** is just.. sort of shooting yourself in the foot.
EDIT: I was a little unclear here, what I mean is I seriously doubt any woman thinks independance is achieved by being a *****, but that label tends to get stuck on them anyway.

 

[Crazycat690]

Snip.

UUUUUUUGGHHHHHHHH

Apparently this needs saying, because we are all five. There are terrible PEOPLE. Some PEOPLE are terrible. Yes?

It is very hard for legitimate victims of sexual assault/harrassment at work to get recognised, and stupid statements like `Women expect X` dont HELP anyone.
Women are not one being.
Women are not all out for money at work.
Some PEOPLE are out for money at work.
And terrible WOMEN are not TERRIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN.
Yes, it sucks that she was believed, I'm really suprised the dude couldn't appeal.

Being a woman on this forum is getting fucking tiring.

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

This needs to be brought to attention, not that women are terrible, women are great! I'm sure you are great, but the problem is that you could probably say I'm harrassing you ONLY for saying that. That is what needs to be discussed, wether you find it tiring or not. If women seek equality they also need to do something about these screwed up social rules.

In short, it's not about insulting women, it's about wanting actual equality instead of treating one gender as overlords.

 

[Darius Brogan]

Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete *****, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

Lol.
Independant does not mean closed off, but some people do take it to mean `a *****`.
So saying independant means being a ***** is just.. sort of shooting yourself in the foot.
EDIT: I was a little unclear here, what I mean is I seriously doubt any woman thinks independance is achieved by being a *****, but that label tends to get stuck on them anyway.

Believe me, there are women out there who become vicious attack-dogs to get where they want to be.

Like I said, it's a pretty individual situation. You can be independent and awesome, or you can be independent and bitchy, or any combination of things, but it's all in what conclusion you come to, to get where you want to be.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

Did you actually just call someone "missy"? For reals?

It's really frightening to live in a world where you can have your reputation dragged through the mud by the simple accusation of sexual misconduct, long before your guilt or innocence is ever established.

By the same token, I imagine it's even more frightening to live in world where you're constantly at risk of being the victim of sexual misconduct, and you'll get YOUR reputation dragged through the mud if you try to report it after it happens.

Both men and women would be well served to stop talking past one another on the issue of sexism and recognize that there are justifiable causes for concern on both sides of the ledger. And really, this forum is male dominated, and on more than one occasion has proven to be a festering pit of barely constrained misogyny, so I don't blame the resident female posters for being a little sensitive.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Here's the thing I don't get. I hear a lot that men get paid more that women...in what jobs? Where the hell do these women work? You see as far as every job I have ever had goes you get your ass paid an fixed rate per hour, gender does't come into it.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Yeah, well call it reparations for women being treated like animals for....thousands of years. I'm sorry worse than animals. I'm pretty sure the family dog was treated better than the wife, in some cases.

I see this "argument" frequently and it's total bullshit.

You weren't around thousands of years ago, you didn't suffer that kind of discrimination so you have no right to take "reparations" or whatever name you like to call it.

Also it's horrifying to think you think it is ok for a woman to make a false claim and destroy a man's life because her ancestors hundreds of years ago were discriminated, I find that repulsive.

Even in the past woman had advantages over men, they never had to go and fight for some king who made them die for a piece of land, no they stayed at home and life went all. Do men ask for reparations for being forced to fight for all those years? No.

Oh you poor POOR babies. You know what you just said is exactly like a white person saying to a black person that they have NO RIGHT to be angry over that whole "slavery" thing because they were given a homes by their poor white masters who had worked hard to earn that land in the first place.

The male gaze, it shows SO bad here.

Well no they don't, If a back person said that then i would have no problem saying them telling them to grow the fuck up and stop being so childish. And this is coming from someone who had ancestors that were kidnapped into slavery and sent halfway round the world. There come a point when we have to stop that kind of thinking. We should learn from the past, not live in it.

Edit

Apologies for the double post, my internetz is being a pig at the moment.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

UUUUUUUGGHHHHHHHH

Apparently this needs saying, because we are all five. There are terrible PEOPLE. Some PEOPLE are terrible. Yes?

It is very hard for legitimate victims of sexual assault/harrassment at work to get recognised, and stupid statements like `Women expect X` dont HELP anyone.
Women are not one being.
Women are not all out for money at work.
Some PEOPLE are out for money at work.
And terrible WOMEN are not TERRIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN.
Yes, it sucks that she was believed, I'm really suprised the dude couldn't appeal.

Being a woman on this forum is getting fucking tiring.

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

This needs to be brought to attention, not that women are terrible, women are great! I'm sure you are great, but the problem is that you could probably say I'm harrassing you ONLY for saying that. That is what needs to be discussed, wether you find it tiring or not. If women seek equality they also need to do something about these screwed up social rules.

In short, it's not about insulting women, it's about wanting actual equality instead of treating one gender as overlords.

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

Yeah, it might be frightening to be accused, but its frightening to have to obey all the `rules` not to get raped (Dont go out at dark, dont drink, dont wear short clothes).

I couldn't `just say`, because most people demand evidence, but there we go. Obviously there are cases that fall between the cracks which should be addressed.
People telling me I `seek` equality annoy me, because it implies I'm not already equal to them. (I'm sure this was not what you meant, its just a word arrangement that annoys me).

The tiring bit is that the attitude that women are overlords is just wrong, and its kind of prevalent on here, which just gets on my nerves.

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

Did you actually just call someone "missy"? For reals?

It's really frightening to live in a world where you can have your reputation dragged through the mud by the simple accusation of sexual misconduct, long before your guilt or innocence is ever established.

By the same token, I imagine it's even more frightening to live in world where you're constantly at risk of being the victim of sexual misconduct, and you'll get YOUR reputation dragged through the mud if you try to report it after it happens.

Both men and women would be well served to stop talking past one another on the issue of sexism and recognize that there are justifiable causes for concern on both sides of the ledger. And really, this forum is male dominated, and on more than one occasion has proven to be a festering pit of barely constrained misogyny, so I don't blame the resident female posters for being a little sensitive.

Yay. Someone who gets it.
... I think I love you.
(And yeah, whats up with missy??? I'm not a child).

 

[Darius Brogan]

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

He's not talking about conviction rates.

If anyone so much as hints that you raped someone, there is a permanent black-mark on your record that will NEVER go away.

Yeah, it's scary that you could be the subject of sexual harassment, but BOTH genders can be the subject of sexual harassment, and rape that is woman vs man is rarely taken seriously.

For example: A Russian hairdresser had a man try to rob her, she knocked him out, tied him to a radiator, fed him Viagra, and raped him for three days.

She's also got a rather extensive Facebook following APPLAUDING HER for turning a man into her sex slave.

That would NEVER, EVER, EVER happen if a man did it to a woman. EVER.

 

[AgentNein]

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

He's not talking about conviction rates.

If anyone so much as hints that you raped someone, there is a permanent black-mark on your record that will NEVER go away.

Yeah, it's scary that you could be the subject of sexual harassment, but BOTH genders can be the subject of sexual harassment, and rape that is woman vs man is rarely taken seriously.

For example: A Russian hairdresser had a man try to rob her, she knocked him out, tied him to a radiator, fed him Viagra, and raped him for three days.

She's also got a rather extensive Facebook following APPLAUDING HER for turning a man into her sex slave.

That would NEVER, EVER, EVER happen if a man did it to a woman. EVER.

The people who were apparently applauding this were a bunch of fucking nuts. And this is the internet, I'm sure you wouldn't be hard pressed to find a bunch of other fucking nuts who would applaud the rape or sexual abuse of a woman.

But yes, I do agree that female on male rape is taken much less seriously than male on female rape. For one it definitely is a less common action, for two it goes back to societies' view that women are helpless and weak. How could a weak helpless woman rape a man? He must've been even weaker, which is cause for ridicule. This is definitely a problem.

But do you honestly think that those actions in any way equal the male-on-female sexual assaults in the world in terms of numbers? Yes everyone has the potential to be a victim of sexual assault. It's just a lot more likely in this world that it's going to be a woman.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

EDIT: Had links but removed. I dont feel comfortable bringing specific indcidents into this.
But trust me, loads of guys who have actually DONE it, are getting on with THEIR lives just fine.

One in four women have suffered rape or attempted rape.
Are that many men blacklisted for life?
Cause I'm really not seeing it.

Anyone who congratulates someone for sexual assault is disgusting, no matter what gender the parties involve. (But I doubt that that wouldnt happen, havent you seen all the nasty shit on facebook? Groups about rape and smacking women are not uncommon).