SEXISM! What's with the standards?

[intheweeds]

But if you follow my logic above, starting a thread about how you have a problem with Radical Feminists is effectively equal to starting one reminding everyone how stupid extremist cults are.

That is to say - everyone already knows that. These people are fucked. Move on already.

It sounds more like the rant of the extreme in the opposite direction: "These extreme right wing nuts are nuts! I'm going to become an extreme left wing nut to show them!"

That's an incredibly good point, but it does bring to light one thing: Despite my topic of choice being, obviously, controversial, it's my topic of choice because A) The people who know about it are usually silent, and it's not helping equality at all, and B) I rather enjoy discussing things a bit more interesting than 'So, who's buying Skyrim?'

I've noticed that the opinions are on one of two extremes. 1) People agree with me. 2) People don't agree with me.

That much is obvious, as there will always be two sides to a discussion. If there wasn't, there'd be no discussion, however, those who don't agree with me usually ask me why I bother, or insult me in some fashion, or claim bullshit....

What is the problem with posting a topic on a public discussion forum? Am I not allowed to do so anymore?

If so many people have issues with almost ANY possible topic, then why the hell are they on a forum?!?

No one is trying to say you can't, but any time you say anything in a public forum, expect some people who disagree to get on you about it.

I think the problem with this one is that your OP is basically a story about how this ONE guy you know got comically, above average evil-y(not a word, hee hee) screwed by (not the woman as you attribute it to) the courts. While everyone here almost universally agrees that if that in fact happened to your friend then that particular court case was severely screwed up, you follow that one over the top anecdote with quote:

"I would like to know why it is that any female claiming sexual harassment gets the IMMEDIATE AND UNQUESTIONABLE benefit of the doubt, simply for being female."

-and-
"While we're on this topic, why is it that any MALE claiming sexual harassment is pretty much told to man-up and quit being a fucking pussy?".

Your use of the huge generalizations about every man and every woman make you sound like you are laying blame on women. This is (as I pointed out) the opposite extreme of the 'radical feminist' you seem to be complaining about. Imagine if your OP was exactly the same, except your friend was a woman and she had some awful thing happen to her by a man. It would look like she was just a big man hater, painting all men with one big brush because she had a bad experience with one man. You have done the same thing.

Again I think you are agreeing with the very people you are trying to argue against and I think its kind of silly.

 

[gideonkain]

Out of common courtesy, he turned to face the desk he was passing, as opposed to the woman, but his leg brushed up against her thigh anyways, and she FREAKED OUT in short order. Followed by a lawsuit for sexual harassment.

Really? This is obviously not what happened. If that was the case every crowded elevator would spawn a Sexual Harassment suit. Your friend did more than "brush his leg with her thigh"

 

[Darius Brogan]

Out of common courtesy, he turned to face the desk he was passing, as opposed to the woman, but his leg brushed up against her thigh anyways, and she FREAKED OUT in short order. Followed by a lawsuit for sexual harassment.

Really? This is obviously not what happened. If that was the case every crowded elevator would spawn a Sexual Harassment suit. Your friend did more than "brush his leg with her thigh"

Read my whole post. I watched the entire scenario play out.

The man was 61 years old, married, and perfectly content with his life. I worked with him long enough to know that much.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

You do know that women were only granted equal pay for equal work a few decades ago, right?

Also, wrong. Ignorant. Baseline republican in its benightedness. If one group oppressed another for centuries, then it cannot simply declare "we're equal now" and say that that's it. Why? Because one of the groups starts from a disadvantaged position. Way over 80% of top politicians and executives in the US are men. Does that sound like "equality" to you? One group was able to hand down businesses to male heirs for centuries. Men had men succeed them in positions of power. One gender owned EVERYTHING until VERY recently.
Basically, it's like a millionaire heir and a trailer park dweller graduating high school with the same grades, and the former saying that all things were equal.

No it isn't.

Actual equality between the sexes, especially in America, is decades away. And people like you will only prolong that period.

I see this specific argument get raised a lot and it's quite sad. I didn't see an actual response to it (but honestly, I just kind of skimmed the thread).

Your argument rests poorly on the premise that the power is controlled by a specific gender. It is not; the fact that it is dominated by men is a correlation, not a causation. In fact, you're discussing the issue based on a financial and political position, not a gender one. It would be similar to me saying that equality is lacking in the home care field because it is dominated primarily by females.

The reality is that various societies are controlled through a series of traditions and cultural identities. As others already attempted to illustrate, being a "white guy" only benefits you within specific western cultural histories. It means very little when placed outside the system that benefits it the most.

The issue I think you are dwelling on far too much, most notably illustrated in your high school example, where each kid has equal grades, so equal standing amongst opportunities that require their level of achievements... up to that point, there was no discernable advantage the rich heir had over the trailer dwelling kid. Unless you play the trump card where the heir has more options to them at that point, that has little to do with their educational standings. IE; your examples continue to require an economical component while ignoring that the system creates equal opportunities outside external influences. Or rather; both kids can now do whatever the hell they want, but one kid lucks out because he happens to know certain people.

To cut to the point; there are two sides to this debate that people continually fail to realize...

Side 1. Equality VIA equal rights and opportunity has been granted VIA legislation.
Side 2. Equality cannot exist without equal representation and sociological experiences.

Nearly every response I've read has involved those two sides. The dilemma comes from Side 2 wanting their position in legislation as Side 1 is... which I'll say as politely as possible; is a pipe dream. It should be rather obvious why, but would require a fairly large chunk of time, energy and space to get into, so I'll save that for later if someone is really interested in it that doesn't already know.

 

[Darius Brogan]

No one is trying to say you can't, but any time you say anything in a public forum, expect some people who disagree to get on you about it.

I think the problem with this one is that your OP is basically a story about how this ONE guy you know got comically, above average evil-y(not a word, hee hee) screwed by (not the woman as you attribute it to) the courts. While everyone here almost universally agrees that if that in fact happened to your friend then that particular court case was severely screwed up, you follow that one over the top anecdote with quote:

"I would like to know why it is that any female claiming sexual harassment gets the IMMEDIATE AND UNQUESTIONABLE benefit of the doubt, simply for being female."

-and-
"While we're on this topic, why is it that any MALE claiming sexual harassment is pretty much told to man-up and quit being a fucking pussy?".

Your use of the huge generalizations about every man and every woman make you sound like you are laying blame on women. This is (as I pointed out) the opposite extreme of the 'radical feminist' you seem to be complaining about. Imagine if your OP was exactly the same, except your friend was a woman and she had some awful thing happen to her by a man. It would look like she was just a big man hater, painting all men with one big brush because she had a bad experience with one man. You have done the same thing.

Again I think you are agreeing with the very people you are trying to argue against and I think its kind of silly.

Oh, there are a lot of things I could have done better when posting the OP, but it's still a valid post.

Had the woman not freaked out, and asked what was going on, he'd still have his pension, his wife, and his savings. Though cases as bad as his are rare, there are similar cases all the time, and in most of those that make it to court, the woman almost exclusively gets preferential treatment.

As for the generalization of 'Man up and quit being a pussy' it's true. It's an almost painfully rare occurrence when a guy who isn't as 'guy-like' as he should be is just left alone.

I stated in a previous post that I lived through my entire High-School career with the stigma of being thought of as gay, because I didn't hunt women in my free time. That's entirely truthful.

An old friend of mine was dumped by my sister for, and I quote, 'Not being enough of a man'. Admittedly, he was a bit emotional, but 'not being enough of a man' is a stigma that FUCKLOADS of guys all over the world have to live with, and women getting the entire spot-light because they're more vocal about their problems is just ridiculous.

I don't mean to sound like I'm laying blame on women, because I'm not, but men are being overlooked almost exclusively because it's not manly to have feelings other than anger and the need to reproduce and/or kill things.

 

[Mallefunction]

....You're joking right?

Please say that you're joking, because guess what 'sister' women are not enslaved, they are not brought and sold like property in the free world, they are treated as equals in most modern life and put up on a fucking pedestal in most of our mainstream media.

This messed up sense of victimization that you so proudly degrade others for having seems to have stuck so deep inside your warped mind that your ignorant ass actually believes it.

Here's a hypothetical situation: A man and a woman are standing in a plaza, the man is standing there while the woman is slapping him, punching him and pulling his hair. do you.

A: Ignore it he probably deserved it.
B: Stop her she's assaulting him.
C: Cheer her on for asserting herself.

If you've picked anything but B then you are either so ignorant towards modern society that no amount of arguing with you will help or you are a troll, either way this conversation is over.

And the 'male gaze' what are you six? Men don't have some biological imperative that makes us immediately only see what we want to see in regards to data and sociological test results. Men see pretty much the same thing women see. There's no deep seated hatred and need to control and put down women that you seem to think men have.

Men, like women, are human beings, stupid, fallible, human fucking beings with all the potential for kindness and hate that either gender posses. ignorant lumps of carbon, we don;t have some sort of hive mind to unify us in hatred towards a gender that we are biologically compelled to like, get over yourself and look around. There are millions of people in happy stable relationships with each other.

Do you really think that if all of those women, all of them, were being oppressed, put down and enslaved by the 'evil men' that someone wouldn't notice. We change the acceptable word for 'black' every other weekend and you think that no one would take note that fifty percent of the population is living as slaves.

My god even Oprah would pick it up the ignorant air head that she is.

Modern women are not being enslaved. That was not my point. My point was that in the past we HAVE been treated like property, abused, and enslaved and as a result we should not be forced to ACT as though none of that history has never occurred (and thus has not effected the CURRENT world). The guy I responded to was basically saying that sexism doesn't exist as if being given the right to vote eliminated all sexism. My comparison was to say, "oh, like how racism was eliminated after blacks got their rights?". History colors the present viewing of various groups and if you deny those years of misogyny and act like they are "no big deal" then you are clearly blind.

Male gaze is actually a real term if you actually took the time to look into the REAL definition instead of assuming I meant something totally biological. It refers to the idea of what men can see in their limited view on the world, specially those that are heterosexual. There is a female gaze too, but male gaze is the default in our society and it's the reason why most women's issues are pushed aside as "not being relevant to the mainstream". It's the same way that the white gaze has become the default. I don't see how using the term makes me appear to be six years old, but whatever that's not important enough for me to bother arguing.

I am not denying that men and women are flawed. My ORIGINAL point was that you guys need to get out of your own little comfortable "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" treehouses and look around. The advantages for the most part are in the courts of men, disregarding a few key issues (and even then, that's due to the male gaze as well). Know why men get blamed for physical violence in a domestic relationship while many women walk free? Because our male dominated society still views women as too weak and kind to do anything like that. While men are statistically more likely to be violent than women, usually this violence is directed toward other men.

Even then, I think that's unfair and that the guilty should always be punished, but to say that women have it SO easy now is to ignore the real facts of the matter. How many women are in government? How many are in the media who aren't young and beautiful while the men get to be old and fat? How many female CEOS are there? It's not that women aren't trying, it's that people tend to pass down power to others like them and thus our society is dominated by white men.

Yes we are being oppressed, but you wanna know something? People who grow up in oppression RARELY realize it until they have been shown something better. Even then it's hard. Girls are being conditioned to expect less pay because that's how it is, that they will never be as smart as the boys, that they will only be valued for their looks, that if they choose to wear shorts that they are a slutty slut who sluts, that if they are old that they have no value in society anymore, that if they get raped and tell someone they will be accused of leading him on or being at fault. How do you know you are being oppressed if you are never allowed to see anything else? That's why there isn't some big uprising like in the 60s. It took the violation of our reproductive rights in order to get people to open their eyes.

I think you need to actually do some fucking research into this topic before you go slinging shit. Nice ad hom by the way. Much appreciated.

 

[Terminally Chill]

So, yeah. The fact that you don't really have very many details at all, and are giving us a highly editorialized, telephone-game version of events, as speculated, is pertinent information.

Not to mention that from later comments we can clearly deduce that he is extremely misogynistic and antagonistic towards women's rights. Boys crying on the internet because of perceived victimization towards their precious lives = me loling forever. Chuck some peanuts and move along.

Yes, this.

I'm nauseated everytime I visit this part of the forum. Just seems to be entitled straight boys pissing on about how sexist these horrible entitled women are towards them.

There sure as hell is a sexism problem in online gaming forums, and it's not due to "femi-nazis". Grow up.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But if you follow my logic above, starting a thread about how you have a problem with Radical Feminists is effectively equal to starting one reminding everyone how stupid extremist cults are.

That is to say - everyone already knows that. These people are fucked. Move on already.

Radical does not equate to extremist. Radical feminists are those that basically happen to believe that sexism is very deep rooted in society, so it will take much restructuring to get rid of it.

Spoiler: snip

Modern women are not being enslaved. That was not my point. My point was that in the past we HAVE been treated like property, abused, and enslaved and as a result we should not be forced to ACT as though none of that history has never occurred (and thus has not effected the CURRENT world). The guy I responded to was basically saying that sexism doesn't exist as if being given the right to vote eliminated all sexism. My comparison was to say, "oh, like how racism was eliminated after blacks got their rights?". History colors the present viewing of various groups and if you deny those years of misogyny and act like they are "no big deal" then you are clearly blind.

Male gaze is actually a real term if you actually took the time to look into the REAL definition instead of assuming I meant something totally biological. It refers to the idea of what men can see in their limited view on the world, specially those that are heterosexual. There is a female gaze too, but male gaze is the default in our society and it's the reason why most women's issues are pushed aside as "not being relevant to the mainstream". It's the same way that the white gaze has become the default. I don't see how using the term makes me appear to be six years old, but whatever that's not important enough for me to bother arguing.

I am not denying that men and women are flawed. My ORIGINAL point was that you guys need to get out of your own little comfortable "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" treehouses and look around. The advantages for the most part are in the courts of men, disregarding a few key issues (and even then, that's due to the male gaze as well). Know why men get blamed for physical violence in a domestic relationship while many women walk free? Because our male dominated society still views women as too weak and kind to do anything like that. While men are statistically more likely to be violent than women, usually this violence is directed toward other men.

Even then, I think that's unfair and that the guilty should always be punished, but to say that women have it SO easy now is to ignore the real facts of the matter. How many women are in government? How many are in the media who aren't young and beautiful while the men get to be old and fat? How many female CEOS are there? It's not that women aren't trying, it's that people tend to pass down power to others like them and thus our society is dominated by white men.

Yes we are being oppressed, but you wanna know something? People who grow up in oppression RARELY realize it until they have been shown something better. Even then it's hard. Girls are being conditioned to expect less pay because that's how it is, that they will never be as smart as the boys, that they will only be valued for their looks, that if they choose to wear shorts that they are a slutty slut who sluts, that if they are old that they have no value in society anymore, that if they get raped and tell someone they will be accused of leading him on or being at fault. How do you know you are being oppressed if you are never allowed to see anything else? That's why there isn't some big uprising like in the 60s. It took the violation of our reproductive rights in order to get people to open their eyes.

I think you need to actually do some fucking research into this topic before you go slinging shit. Nice ad hom by the way. Much appreciated.

Exactly.

Spoiler: snip

The operative word here being "boys". The irony of this thread is that the OP talks about how men are socially pressured to act in a manly fashion, and then proceeds to vomit his emo whinge-fest over all of his posts, worse than any - yeah, I said it - bitchy little girl. "We poor men are being oppressed by the evil feminists waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa." Christ, how bloody PATHETIC.

Fucking hell, yes. I'd like to think it's the gamer stereotype thing, that all that stuff about gamers being maladjusted basement dwelling males, but I doubt it.

Hell, in the R&P thread, we are currently (and always) having the discussion about whether or not women should have rights over their own bodies, and pretending to be surprised when the people whose voices have weight get all hot and bothered yelling "no".

 

[Strazdas]

She won.

Judge should be jailed for crimes against humanity.
that is all.

 

[Zyntoxic]

in turn I can tell you of a friend of mine, she got forcefully dragged into a cellar, beaten and raped, then he finished by spraying his semen over her, took a picture with his phone and then left her bleeding, naked and crying.
he went free with the excuse that he had gotten over excited while making out with her, and that there had been no sex and that she did everything willfully and had the scrapes and bruises was from falling.

the police had gather fool proof evidence, but that does not matter, in most cases of sexual harassment and rape the victim loses.

justice is random, sometimes you'll have it sometimes you wont, and yes it sucks.

 

[Colour Scientist]

in turn I can tell you of a friend of mine, she got forcefully dragged into a cellar, beaten and raped, then he finished by spraying his semen over her, took a picture with his phone and then left her bleeding, naked and crying.
he went free with the excuse that he had gotten over excited while making out with her, and that there had been no sex and that she did everything willfully and had the scrapes and bruises was from falling.

the police had gather fool proof evidence, but that does not matter, in most cases of sexual harassment and rape the victim loses.

justice is random, sometimes you'll have it sometimes you wont, and yes it sucks.

According to some people here she was probably just lying to get his money or she deserved because she misled him by making out with him.
That wiley minx.

 

[Ekit]

America needs to stop suing eachother over everything.