Sexuality, Diversity, Coming out

[Autumnflame]

Recent news ( ranted im a little behind in writing this but i digress)
Ian Thorpe ( Aussie olympic Swimmer) has " Come out"

Am I the only one that sees the whole " Coming out of the closet "
Something of a past era with todays culture.

Why cant people just " be " if you gay straight or any variation you should just be and not need to " come out " as the old term.

And i recently discovered the whole extensive Cis Gender/sexuality classifications.
Personally I don't see the need for it.
I don't really get why we should be celebrating diversity instead of celebrating what we have n common.

A persons sexuality is part of a person but not their entire defining characteristic.
Shouldn't a person be free to be who they are without being forced to apply specific labels to their gender and sexuality.

I cant imagine the pressure young people feel to " identify " what and who they are so they can label themselves instead of just living as who they are.

Captcha In the club -- so very fitting

 

[Vault101]

Recent news ( ranted im a little behind in writing this but i digress)
Ian Thorpe ( Aussie olympic Swimmer) has " Come out"

Am I the only one that sees the whole " Coming out of the closet "
Something of a past era with todays culture.

Why cant people just " be " if you gay straight or any variation you should just be and not need to " come out " as the old term.

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhh*

ok

I can sort of understnad the idea that labels are limiting...they can be...gay/straihgt/bi might be two binary for some...others are not ready to subscribe to a label

HOWEVER

[quote/]I cant imagine the pressure young people feel to " identify " what and who they are so they can label themselves instead of just living as who they are.[/quote]

thats what coming out can be...it means being who you are

it's something people somtimes need to do..not just for practical reasons but for personal reasons, its no fun hiding a part of you...imagine if you stopped yourself from ever mentioning you liked games...mabye not even because Games are looked down upon but you just felt you had to hide it...again its not fun

 

[Silvanus]

Why cant people just " be " if you gay straight or any variation you should just be and not need to " come out " as the old term.

Well, there's the thing. It shouldn't be a big deal in an ideal world, but sometimes it is.

Family members may freak out (or even disown the person). Friends may freak out. Co-workers may freak out. A lot of people will change how they act around you.

"Coming out" is a very emotional and scary thing to do, and people usually do it very cautiously, because they're terrified of the response they may get.

 

[Thaluikhain]

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhh*

I sympathise.

Well, there's the thing. It shouldn't be a big deal in an ideal world, but sometimes it is.

Family members may freak out (or even disown the person). Friends may freak out. Co-workers may freak out. A lot of people will change how they act around you.

"Coming out" is a very emotional and scary thing to do, and people usually do it very cautiously, because they're terrified of the response they may get.

Very much this.

It's all very well to talk about how we should be talking about what we have in common and not concern ourselves with how we are different, but that doesn't work in the real world where massive amounts of society are very much concerned with othering people who are different.

Ian Thorpe can't get married in Australia, for example. That's a big difference.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Generally, society assumes people are heterosexual unless stated otherwise.

Something of a past era with todays culture.

You mean today's culture where a vast majority of countries still haven't legalized gay marriage and prohibit gay couples from adopting. Where most gay couples aren't able to hold hands in public without getting funny looks or snide comments.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're trying to say that gay people shouldn't have to come out because it should just be the norm. Which is lovely in theory but gay people are still discriminated against on an every day basis. Just because Western societies have become less overtly homophobic and things are definitely getting better, it doesn't mean that everything's equal and super cool now.

I've seen the argument you've outlined trotted out by others but in more of a 'gay people should just keep their mouth's shut and stop drawing attention to themselves' kind of way and that attitude can be incredibly problematic.

As for the second part of your post, what's the problem with celebrating diversity?
The reason people apply labels is because they want to identify as part of a group. If you feel like an outcast from the social norm, aligning yourself to another group will make you feel less isolated or unusual.

To be honest, I don't see why some people get their knickers in a bunch over the different classifications. I'll admit that I've rolled my eyes at a few of the more obscure or abstract ones but they don't personally affect me or bother me so people can identify in whatever way they choose.

I don't feel the need to belittle them by making "LGBTQBBQWTFOMG special snowflake" jokes. I'm not directing this at OP specifically, just in general.

 

[Vault101]

I've seen the argument you've outlined trotted out by others but in more of a 'gay people should just keep their mouth's shut and stop drawing attention to themselves' kind of way and that attitude can be incredibly problematic.

I especially love the "I don't have a problem with gays as long as hey don't shove it down our throats...[sub/]like existing..seriously why do they have to do that? why can't they just not exist like normal people?[/sub]


[quote/]To be honest, I don't see why some people get their knickers in a bunch over the different classifications. I'll admit that I've rolled my eyes at a few of the more obscure or abstract ones but they don't personally affect me or bother me so people can identify in whatever way they choose.
.[/quote]

labels are a complicated thing for "both" sides of the coin...I think half the disdain for those who identify as "bi" is people don't like it when they cant be put in a box...

 

[Colour Scientist]

labels are a complicated thing for "both" sides of the coin...I think half the disdain for those who identify as "bi" is people don't like it when they cant be put in a box...

I don't know, I'm sure there's a whole host of reasons why some people struggle to accept it, I'd be wary of over-simplifying it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

labels are a complicated thing for "both" sides of the coin...I think half the disdain for those who identify as "bi" is people don't like it when they cant be put in a box...

I don't know, I'm sure there's a whole host of reasons why some people struggle to accept it, I'd be wary of over-simplifying it.

Yeah...possibly not a coincidence that large numbers of people who get angry with the labels aren't also keen on what the labels are for either.

 

[DementedSheep]

Well for a start making you sexual preferences known is useful when finding a partner especially since everyone tends to assume you're hetro (which is why heterosexuals don't need to announce this fact) and some people can react violently or get creeped out by being hit on by the same sex or to finding out someone is trans even if they claim to not have an issue with them existing. You have to be lot more careful talking about or showing attraction or affection if you are homosexual, especially if you are a guy and we aren't even talking about it in countries where it's illegal. A "label" is useful because if people know what it means you aren't constantly having to explain shit and you can more easily find people like you with experiences similar to you. Not everyone is the same, having a more specific group to identify with can help a person find their feet and feel "normal". Having people like you who are successful makes it easier for a person to imagine themselves ever being successful and can help stop someone being ashamed of that part of themselves so celebrities "coming out" publicly can be a good thing. Saying you are X isn't the same as saying you are only X.

A persons sexuality is just a part for a person and coming out shouldn't be a big deal but it still is. I know a girl who was locked in a room for days before being kicked out of home because she told her parents she was lesbian which to them means "devil spawn". Another girl had a teacher try to fail her for it (thankfully they were overridden by a senior teacher) and tell her she deserve to die and a guy I know has been attacked for it. I live in New Zealand, we aren't famously conservative here. Most people in my age group seem to be pretty relaxed about homosexuals (though less so with trans I think) which is good but that doesn't mean everything is all fine now.

 

[DementedSheep]

I've seen the argument you've outlined trotted out by others but in more of a 'gay people should just keep their mouth's shut and stop drawing attention to themselves' kind of way and that attitude can be incredibly problematic.

I especially love the "I don't have a problem with gays as long as hey don't shove it down our throats...[sub/]like existing..seriously why do they have to do that? why can't they just not exist like normal people?[/sub]


[quote/]To be honest, I don't see why some people get their knickers in a bunch over the different classifications. I'll admit that I've rolled my eyes at a few of the more obscure or abstract ones but they don't personally affect me or bother me so people can identify in whatever way they choose.
.

labels are a complicated thing for "both" sides of the coin...I think half the disdain for those who identify as "bi" is people don't like it when they cant be put in a box...[/quote]
My grandmother has issue with people being bi because "why can't they be happy with one? it seems greedy" though I have explained to her that bi doesn't mean you have both male and female partners at the same time. Although I think she only ok with homosexuals (so long as they don't use the word marriage or kiss in public *rolls eyes*) because she considers it a disorder so someone who is bi and isn't forced to be with someone of the same sex should then choose to be straight. Perhaps this is why some people hate bisexuals...that and a depressingly large amount of people seem to think gay = trans (including some of your future nurses and paramedics!) so by that logic being bi would mean you want to be both.

 

[Zhukov]

If you're fine with people just plain ol' being gay or bi, why would you have a problem with them stating it?

...

Actually, fuck it, there's no need for me to dance around the point here. I'm just going to straight up say it: what you're saying sounds an awful lot like, "I don't mind gay people, just so long as they don't mention it."

 

[Thyunda]

If you're fine with people just plain ol' being gay or bi, why would you have a problem with them stating it?

...

Actually, fuck it, there's no need for me to dance around the point here. I'm just going to straight up say it: what you're saying sounds an awful lot like, "I don't mind gay people, just so long as they mention it."

When I started reading the OP, I thought "Yeah, why do they have to come out?" And then I finished the OP and thought, that is not what I meant when I agreed with you.

See, when I started, I thought it meant "Why is it news that athlete/celebrity identifies as gay?", as in, surely it's something that you would find out from hearing the person in question mention it, or finding it on Wikipedia or IMDb or something. Like any normal trait.

I entirely did not mean it in the "Why do they have to be attention-seeking little divas about it?" way that the OP meant. Cause, y'know, I'm sure when the swimmer came out of the closet, the first thing he did was call his local news outlet with the development.

 

[JoJo]

And i recently discovered the whole extensive Cis Gender/sexuality classifications.
Personally I don't see the need for it.
I don't really get why we should be celebrating diversity instead of celebrating what we have n common.

It's not really a matter of celebrating diversity or commonality, labels are simply useful markers for informing people about who you might or might not be attracted to, or what your gender identity might be. While admittedly there are some which mean effectively the same thing (e.g. bisexual, pansexual, polysexual etc) without any classifications at-all it would be harder to make sense of the world.

A persons sexuality is part of a person but not their entire defining characteristic.
Shouldn't a person be free to be who they are without being forced to apply specific labels to their gender and sexuality.

Well yes, they are free to do that. No one is forced to label themselves as straight, gay, or bi, it's just people tend to do so voluntarily because it makes their lives easier, there are people around who reject any labels if you look hard enough.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I entirely did not mean it in the "Why do they have to be attention-seeking little divas about it?" way that the OP meant. Cause, y'know, I'm sure when the swimmer came out of the closet, the first thing he did was call his local news outlet with the development.

While you can be forgiven, this is where the original post kind of falls apart.

Ian Thorpe said he was gay in an interview he recently did, which largely dealt with his depression, drinking and rehab. During the interview, he talked a lot about his personal life, and part of that was the fact that he had just recently came out to his close friends and family. In addition, he recently claimed in an autobiography to be straight, so there's a bit of 'setting the record straight' as well.

Ian Thorpe didn't jump on his Unicorn and fly over the nearest radio station on a rainbow to proclaim his gayness. He had an honest, frank discussion about how fucked his life was, and how he got better, and part of that was admitting to others he was gay. And if you think there's something wrong with that, then there may be something wrong with you.

 

[Thyunda]

I entirely did not mean it in the "Why do they have to be attention-seeking little divas about it?" way that the OP meant. Cause, y'know, I'm sure when the swimmer came out of the closet, the first thing he did was call his local news outlet with the development.

While you can be forgiven, this is where the original post kind of falls apart.

Ian Thorpe said he was gay in an interview he recently did, which largely dealt with his depression, drinking and rehab. During the interview, he talked a lot about his personal life, and part of that was the fact that he had just recently came out to his close friends and family. In addition, he recently claimed in an autobiography to be straight, so there's a bit of 'setting the record straight' as well.

Ian Thorpe didn't jump on his Unicorn and fly over the nearest radio station on a rainbow to proclaim his gayness. He had an honest, frank discussion about how fucked his life was, and how he got better, and part of that was admitting to others he was gay. And if you think there's something wrong with that, then there may be something wrong with you.

Honestly it would have been weird if he had a lengthy discussion about his personal life and being gay didn't come into that. I guess I lumped it in with the bog-standard 'CELEBRITY COMES OUT' shocker headlines, and that's where my initial sympathy with the OP came from. Also, I didn't see this particular bit of news, so the location and frequency of offered slaps depends on the particular tone and focus.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Outing can be a pretty stressful experience and for a lot of people those around them don't accept them. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where people are accepted by everyone regardless of sexuality and gender identity. Wasn't much of an issue for me, told parents, friends, changed Facebook profile, none of them really cared. I mention it if it comes up but otherwise I don't because there's no need, my sexuality hardly defines me. One important thing for me about outing is Bisexual Erasure. As mentioned earlier people assume you're heterosexual (and cisgendered) until proven otherwise and often the idea is if you see people in an opposite sex relationship they're straight and in a same sex relationship they're gay. All same-sex marriages get called gay marriages. The problem is that this isn't the case, there are people attracted to males and females.

When I came out as bisexual I was (and still am) in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, that doesn't make me straight just as being with someone of the same sex wouldn't make me gay. The problem with your idea of just acting and not saying what your sexuality is, is that people will make assumptions about my sexuality. I shouldn't have to get with someone of the same-sex to 'prove' I'm bisexual. Hell even if I did people would just think I'm gay, not bi. Likewise having preferences doesn't make someone not bisexual.

Gender identity has never been too much of an issue for me, I haven't 'outed' myself persay, don't think I have to. I've mentioned that I'd be fine as male or female (ideally could switch between the two with ease) and that my sex isn't what defines me as a person. I'm fine just using the pronouns of and being called whatever sex I currently am, still filling out forms like "What is your Gender? Male or Female' is a bit annoying. For a lot of people however, the gender they identify as and how they would appear to be to a casual observer don't match up so they wouldn't want to be misgendered. A FTM for example wouldn't want to be called a woman, despite his sex being female his gender is male.

 

[AngloDoom]

Recent news ( ranted im a little behind in writing this but i digress)
Ian Thorpe ( Aussie olympic Swimmer) has " Come out"

Am I the only one that sees the whole " Coming out of the closet "
Something of a past era with todays culture.

You know, threads like this are kind of heart-warming. Hopefully the whole world will reach a point where we're all asking "wait, people used to have to hide their sexuality?"

I can only speak as a heterosexual man who is nevertheless absolutely fabulous and I've had people assault me because I 'look gay' and a good friend of mine got beaten to the point of waking up to the sound a pair of concerned police officers and an ambulance after he dropped his boyfriend off. Apparently a group of guys thought the sight of two men holding hands was enough to stir them to violence. I can understand how 'coming out' can be pretty scary consider these points.

 

[Robert Marrs]

When you are apathetic to the whole thing and you really don't care what sexual orientation people are its easy to feel this way. Its important to remember that other people are still not ok with it. So if someone does come out of the closet in my mind I might be thinking "ok good for you" someone else could be thinking "this makes me angry enough to be violent". Its important for people to come out because a bunch of people still have serious issues with gays. It shouldn't be necessary and I can see your point about it being the exact opposite of acceptance but that probably won't change until other people become more accepting.

 

[Lieju]

Yeah, It would be nice if no-one cared about this stuff.

When we are talking about 'power-fantasies', or maybe rather just fantasies, well...
Skyrim had lot of issues and the marriage system wasn't implemented well, but it was a really appealing fantasy for me to play a female character who is married to another woman and no-one cares.

Because I don't get that in real life.

If I tell people I'm gay, I'm 'pushing it down their throats', if I don't or actively hide it, I'm 'deceiving them'.

Seriously, I have had people tell homophobic jokes to me, and then when I have called them out on it ("So, do you think I'm like that, then?") they get offended I haven't told them my sexual orientation because they would have tried to not be as openly homophobic I guess. Because obviously it's my responsibility.

 

[Vault101]

When we are talking about 'power-fantasies', or maybe rather just fantasies, well...
Skyrim had lot of issues and the marriage system wasn't implemented well, but it was a really appealing fantasy for me to play a female character who is married to another woman and no-one cares.
.

last weekend I did nothing but play the sims 2

I made a lesbian couple (one based on Piper and Alex from OITNB) haing them make out and snuggle in bed with each other was basically porn for me

.....[sub/]yeeeeaaaaaah[/sub]