Shooting Spree in England.

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Jun 13, 2009
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XJ-0461 said:
12 people killed by one madman with a gun.

You see, if we legalised guns over here, this sort of thing would happen much more frequently.

EDIT: Yes, OK, if guns were legal over here, someone could have stopped him. But then there would be a lot more guns on the streets, and thugs with knives would become thugs with guns. You can outrun someone with a knife. Outrunning bullets is something much harder.
I was thinking the same thing earlier when this was on the news. Can you imagine if Chavs could get guns? Actually, that's too horrible to imagine.

OT: While this is a tragic event, the news is doing entirely the wrong thing. National news, big fuss, repeated over and over every hour. A lot of psychological studies have said that the worst thing you can do after an event like this is to broadcast it National and often, and turn the guy who did it into an anti-hero. In the minds of the psychopaths, this is a quick way to fame. By showing it on the news over and over and over again, all we are doing is reinforcing their belief that it is heroic and will make them famous.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Winter Rat said:
TOGSolid said:
Winter Rat said:
Gun control works great...for better gun control use both hands and restrict yourself to 3-5 round bursts.
Don't forget proper stance!
Not such a big fan of stances, I teach neutral interchangeable lower body posture. As long as you've got the proper grip for a pistol or the stock in the pocket with your shoulders square with a long gun, you're probably fine. Watch the front sight and have a clean trigger break is the main thing.

On topic, my point is that even near total gun control laws on an ISLAND NATION are not sufficient to prevent these kind of rampages, which are why most gun control advocates advocate gun control in the first place. Perhaps we should focus on reducing and controlling crime in general. These kinds of incidents are horrific and tragic, but ultimately account for .0001% of violent crimes, even in the US. Just like shark attacks, they make scary news footage, but aren't a major societal problem.
I love hearing about shark attacks, it means fewer people here on the beach...
 

gibboss28

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I uhh... Yeah I dunno what to say really...but I do know theres a taxi driver joke in there somewhere.
 

punkrocker27

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Legend of J said:
How has this topic now turned into an argument against the us and england lol.

Well i think we have it in the right yes it is bad news that people have died by gun related crime but how many people die a day from gun crime in the usa?.
gun crime and gun rampages are generally seen as two different things
 

Legend of J

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punkrocker27 said:
Legend of J said:
How has this topic now turned into an argument against the us and england lol.

Well i think we have it in the right yes it is bad news that people have died by gun related crime but how many people die a day from gun crime in the usa?.
gun crime and gun rampages are generally seen as two different things
Yeah i carn't really comment much on guns with a D.p like mine....

But since than gun dosen't shoot anythink which can kill or hurt then there you go lol.
 

Sewblon

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Danny Ocean said:
Deofuta said:
XJ-0461 said:
12 people killed by one madman with a gun.

You see, if we legalized guns over here, this sort of thing would happen much more frequently.
I don't know, I think that if someone indeed has the ability to do this sort of atrocious act, they will find a way to carry it out.
The thing is that, over here, people don't expect guns. Most sprees here involve knives. It's much harder to kill with a knife than a gun, so fewer people tend to die. Guns may only slightly increase the crime rate, but I think the bigger effect is increasing the death rate.

not_the_dm said:
... And I thought we lived in a civlised country.
Oh please. One man going insane does not render an entire nation uncivilised.

jdun said:
You do know that UK has one of the highest crime rate in the world. Much higher than ours.
Not True. [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes] In terms of raw numbers you're above us. In per capita terms you're on 80/1000, we're on 85/1000. Hardly surprising. That is likely due to the higher amounts of petty crime like shoplifting, which is probably less prevalent in the US because all the shops have people with guns guarding them. Crime also has a much broader definition here.

In terms of murders, [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita] however, you are far, far ahead of us. 0.04/1000 compared to 0.01/1000. I really do think that's because guns make it easy to kill.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita Russia has strict gun laws, and they still have the fifth highest murder rate in the world. I am not sure what Poland's gun laws are but they have a higher murder rate than the U.S
 

Danny Ocean

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Malyc said:
Concealed carry= talk to sheriff, fill out a form, and he hands you a permit to purchase and a permit to carry concealed, as long as you are over 21 and not prohibited from owning a firearm. In fact, it is legal to carry openly with these permits. Tighter regulations? If you want those, try California. I happen to live here buddy, and it is EXTREMELY easy to get a gun if you are a law abiding citizen. It takes about 15-20 minutes and consists of a phone call and filling out a form.
You would know this if you actually looked up what concealed carry laws are.http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/minnesota-ccw-state-laws.php[/url


That's interesting, but doesn't undermine my response. You have more laws regulating guns. You also have lower homicide rates. I don't need to know how those laws work exactly to know that they exist. My point is still proven. Even within the test bed of US states, those with tighter gun control have lower homicide rates.

Although perhaps this is as a result of an underlying issue. I shall research and get back to you!

crimson5pheonix said:
It doesn't mention number injured, though. Seems unlikely they'd put one or two killed in as a spree without good reason.

Sewblon said:
Russia has strict gun laws, and they still have the fifth highest murder rate in the world. I am not sure what Poland's gun laws are but they have a higher murder rate than the U.S
Russia has very high levels of corruption and organised crime, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia] which makes it much easier to flat-out ignore the law.

Poland actually has very strict gun control laws. Any ideas as to what leads to this anomalous result?
 

punkrocker27

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Legend of J said:
punkrocker27 said:
Legend of J said:
How has this topic now turned into an argument against the us and england lol.

Well i think we have it in the right yes it is bad news that people have died by gun related crime but how many people die a day from gun crime in the usa?.
gun crime and gun rampages are generally seen as two different things
Yeah i carn't really comment much on guns with a D.p like mine....

But since than gun dosen't shoot anythink which can kill or hurt then there you go lol.
Sorry I think I'm having a hard time understanding all the British lingo.
Anyway it is stupid that this tragedy devolved into an argument, like always, but what do you think the OP expected?
 

capin Rob

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Liberaliter said:
Wow... that's pretty big news. That shows me for not watching the news today.

Obviously it won't seem that big to you Americans with your near constant state of blood fueled rampages.

Just kidding guys.
Thats auctually accurate. USA is fucking crazy.
 

SenseOfTumour

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Yeah, any chance of discussing a tragic event without either piling on one side of UK/US or more guns/no guns?

Or if so, at least start a new thread linked to this event, so this could be sensibly discussed.

I think it's a terrible shame for those concerned, but sadly, as an earlier poster said, we seem to get one of these a decade, roughly, it's just a more extreme version of suicide where you're hateful and selfish enough to want to ruin as many lives as possible on the way out.

I'm not defending his actions in any way as I hope the above paragraph shows, but I don't think he had any choice, I think his mind just snapped, a long life of built up stress in the wrong head led to this I think.

I'm in favour of our gun laws personally, but if he hadn't had access, he could have quite easily just driven into a bus queue, then blown up his car. I don't feel the method is relevant, a lunatic isn't something you can analyse and 'solve'.

Sadly, like volcanos and earthquakes, it's just part of nature and something you just have to hope you never experience.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Danny Ocean said:
Malyc said:
Concealed carry= talk to sheriff, fill out a form, and he hands you a permit to purchase and a permit to carry concealed, as long as you are over 21 and not prohibited from owning a firearm. In fact, it is legal to carry openly with these permits. Tighter regulations? If you want those, try California. I happen to live here buddy, and it is EXTREMELY easy to get a gun if you are a law abiding citizen. It takes about 15-20 minutes and consists of a phone call and filling out a form.
You would know this if you actually looked up what concealed carry laws are.http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/minnesota-ccw-state-laws.php[/url


That's interesting, but doesn't undermine my response. You have more laws regulating guns. You also have lower homicide rates. I don't need to know how those laws work exactly to know that they exist. My point is still proven. Even within the test bed of US states, those with tighter gun control have lower homicide rates.

Although perhaps this is as a result of an underlying issue. I shall research and get back to you!

crimson5pheonix said:
It doesn't mention number injured, though. Seems unlikely they'd put one or two killed in as a spree without good reason.


No, it mentions number injured. In addition, this killer injured 25 others. I think I only saw one spree with that many injured (one of the school sprees).
 

Legend of J

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punkrocker27 said:
Legend of J said:
punkrocker27 said:
Legend of J said:
How has this topic now turned into an argument against the us and england lol.

Well i think we have it in the right yes it is bad news that people have died by gun related crime but how many people die a day from gun crime in the usa?.
gun crime and gun rampages are generally seen as two different things
Yeah i carn't really comment much on guns with a D.p like mine....

But since than gun dosen't shoot anythink which can kill or hurt then there you go lol.
Sorry I think I'm having a hard time understanding all the British lingo.
Anyway it is stupid that this tragedy devolved into an argument, like always, but what do you think the OP expected?
I would be hopin a bit sympathy lol.
 

Sovvolf

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TOGSolid said:
Yes but your reason for owning a gun is reasonable. Like for people living in Africa owning a rifle or a large calibre gun would be appropriate because of the dangerous wild life about. Your city slicker friend doesn't really need to own a gun, us Brits don't really need to own guns unless we live on farms and we need to keep Fox away from our live stock. Gun control should be subjective to the area. Gun control for the city should be tightened while gun control for your area (where dangerous wild life like bears and apparently Cougars roam) should be pretty loose due to the obvious danger of the area.



Double A said:
crimsonshrouds said:
um... I think this proves something about gun control but im not sure what...
That if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns is the quote you're looking for.
Yeah but with this case... the gun was a legal gun. A 22. rifle or a shotgun with the sounds of things. Heck I could go down and get one of those tomorrow if I chose to ( I actually plan to on Friday.. maybe Saturday).

As for the shooting it self, I morn the losses of every one killed here. Why couldn't the guy just have killed himself in the first place instead of taking innocent lives with him. This was also done up North (being that I'm a Northerner this is pretty scary) though this was done far from where I live.
 

Double A

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Sovvolf said:
TOGSolid said:
Yes but your reason for owning a gun is reasonable. Like for people living in Africa owning a rifle or a large calibre gun would be appropriate because of the dangerous wild life about. Your city slicker friend doesn't really need to own a gun, us Brits don't really need to own guns unless we live on farms and we need to keep Fox away from our live stock. Gun control should be subjective to the area. Gun control for the city should be tightened while gun control for your area (where dangerous wild life like bears and apparently Cougars roam) should be pretty loose due to the obvious danger of the area.



Double A said:
crimsonshrouds said:
um... I think this proves something about gun control but im not sure what...
That if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns is the quote you're looking for.
Yeah but with this case... the gun was a legal gun. A 22. rifle or a shotgun with the sounds of things. Heck I could go down and get one of those tomorrow if I chose to ( I actually plan to on Friday.. maybe Saturday).

As for the shooting it self, I morn the losses of every one killed here. Why couldn't the guy just have killed himself in the first place instead of taking innocent lives with him. This was also done up North (being that I'm a Northerner this is pretty scary) though this was done far from where I live.
I thought all guns were banned in the UK though...?
 

StrangerMouse

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Any deaths are tragic, no exceptions. And please let's not turn this thread into a political argument-a-thon. I highlly doubt that they would want to be remembered that way.
 

Danny Ocean

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crimson5pheonix said:
No, it mentions number injured. In addition, this killer injured 25 others. I think I only saw one spree with that many injured (one of the school sprees).
Okay, I'll consider the credibility of that source suitably undermined. However, judging from the anecdotal evidence present in this thread, sprees are much more common in the US than the UK.
 

SenseOfTumour

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As mine got lost in a quote stack, I second the above, lets argue guns or not, or US against UK in another thread huh?
 

crimson5pheonix

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Danny Ocean said:
crimson5pheonix said:
No, it mentions number injured. In addition, this killer injured 25 others. I think I only saw one spree with that many injured (one of the school sprees).
Okay, I'll consider the credibility of that source suitably undermined. However, judging from the anecdotal evidence present in this thread, sprees are much more common in the US than the UK.
The U.S. is also a bigger country with a bigger population, and is going to have more murders period.