Should Diversity be addressed within the narrative or should it be a non-issue?

[Burnouts3s3]

There was something that Ross Lincoln said during the movie Podcast. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that it would be nice if we could have 'casually' gay men and have it not be a big deal.

I said this in response.

I think the problem with making homosexuality a minor detail (moreso in showing gay men than gay women as Ross and Ingoo brought up), is that if it plays almost no part in the story, a conservative producer or even a producer who doesn't want to shy people away, is so interchangeable with men depicted as heterosexual that the producers will either downplay it or change it. And when you're considering the action genre, where the majority of the consuming demographic is men, it's hard to address the idea or theme of diversity so that depiction can be sidelined.

But now, I'm wondering if I wasn't mistaken in that belief and we should have homosexuality or transitioning between genders become a non-issue. I'm confused as whether or not that the narrative or story should address homosexuality and other issues of diversity or simply not discuss it. I've played a lot of Bioware games, The Sims and know that Saint's Row that changing one's gender/race/sexuality doesn't really get addressed (other than some romantic options) and not really talked about. To me, since the idea that race and gender and sexuality are so interchangeable for a player character and doesn't change their role in the story (A Gay Shepard will still shoot their way to victory as a straight Shepard would), those themes of diversity are non-issues to me.

I also stumbled upon this quote from Tumblr.
http://greenwolfmusic.tumblr.com/post/55263325859/so-i-want-to-introduce-you-to-two-characters-on

That having been said, these characters (Claire Augustus from Questionable Content and Alysia Yeoh from Batgirl, two male to female transgender portrayals) do frustrate me a little. While on the one hand they represent very character driven portrayals, I?m concerned with how insignificant their genders are to their stories as a whole. Both authors use ?coming out? as a trope to solidify the friendship between the protagonist and the trans side character. However, beyond this, these characters? trans status is not used for any other sort of development. These characters could very easily be replaced by cis characters without dramatically affecting the narrative of the stories they appear in.

Other times, I've heard the criticism that the homosexual aspect of one's character, such as Steve Cortez from Mass Effect, is 'shoehorned in' and isn't part of the character. Other times, I fall under 'if it serves a purpose in the story, it's okay' aspect.

For example in Scandal (I just started watching. I only finished the first episode), Olivia defends her client who happens to be gay, and such showing footage that he was with another gay man would release him from suspicion of murder. However, the client doesn't want to come out the closet since he is a soldier and is part of a conservative community. Olivia eventually relates to him, saying who he loves shouldn't be a secret (and also relates to Olivia's own affairs with the President of the United States). In Paranorman, the issues of Aggie being persecuted from a New England's conforming society eventually plays into the theme that even different or strange people should be accepted (and thus adds to the humor at the revelation that Mitch was gay).

What are your thoughts on all of this?

 

[Promethax]

I personally believe that over-emphasizing a character's particular trait is counter intuitive to the goals of diversity. For example, if the only notable characteristic of a trans character is that they're trans, they're no longer an interesting character, they're a token.

It's about more than just representation, it's about good representation. People don't just want diverse characters, they want good characters.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think we need more of both. There's nothing particularly wrong with using a character's race, gender, sexual orientation, gender orientation, etc. as a main point in the narrative as long as it fits the narrative. There is value in that as those stories as not told often enough and are stories that should be told. That said, there is also value in simply having more variety in the backgrounds of narratives. This also pushes things forwards in showing simply that diversity is "normal" and is everywhere in a way that doesn't call attention to itself. This is one of the reasons why I would like to see more diverse videogame characters even when their gender/race/etc. doesn't have any impact on the narrative.

 

[Veylon]

I second on "fitting the narrative" as being important. In the world of Mass Effect, no one might care the slightest about Shephard's sexuality (or lack thereof). In other settings, it might be a big deal. If it is a big deal, then the character's struggle with parts of their society - and possibly themself - is a part of their backstory and character. Not the only part, certainly, but a part.

 

[jethroe498]

In this day and age, essentially any portrayal of race or gender will be attacked by someone for not conforming to their personal ideas. There's no real way to do it right; making it a non-issue will often trivialize and make the character's feature (race/gender/sex) weightless, where on the other hand making it a large part of their character leads to tokenism and stereotypes, which can get really ugly (but can, occasionally be used well in satirical comedic effect). I firmly believe that a good writer will be able to work hard and create a character that is middle ground, not becoming an awful caricature but not entirely throwing their identity as trans or so-on to the side.

 

[1Life0Continues]

GTAIV: The Ballad of Gay Tony.

Gay representation done well. Not perfect, still a little too derogatory in places, but far better than anything else. The negative aspects could actually be seen in TBoGT as the representation of the extreme viewpoint resorting to petulant childish name calling instead of any real argument. YMMV.

Tony was gay. He just was. The game didn't make a big deal out of it, it was just his character. He wasn't a limpwristed stereotype (Tony kicked ass in the gun fights he was in) nor was his being gay the entire point of his character. He wasn't one note, he was just Tony, the in over his head night club owner who just happened to be gay. He had debts, he had relationship problems and he was a well rounded, charismatic and amazingly well written character. TBoGT deserves every writing accolade it got IMO.

THAT is representation done right. Or at least as close as we have these days. Normalising is important, and having a character who just happens to be gay, and no-one cares is an immense leap forward in my view. You don't need to draw attention to the representation, nor should you ignore it. You just do it, make it normal and the audience will follow.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Serena Southerlyn

Some Law and Order faithfuls know where I'm going with this.

85 episodes. 85. Little was known about the Character. She just seemed like another of a long line of McCoy's Beauty Lawyer Squad.

And when she was fired. Literally, one of the last things her character ever said was "Is this because I'm a Lesbian?"

I never recovered from that. I'm not asking her to attend Pride Parades every year. But that shoehorned effort for just a little more diversity was distasteful. "See! We had gays represented all this time! and she was just a normal person! Aren't we clever?!"

Anyone's struggle is important. There were plenty of episodes where she would mention how such and such subject matter would be presented to her as a woman and how it would color her perception. Her sexuality isn't as important as her biological parts and how she perceives things due to that?

There would have been more of an impact if it was mentioned in... I don't know, ten episodes? "yes, I'm a lesbian." And for her to act totally the same as she did in the next 75 episodes. That last moment thing as a... I don't know, Twist? that always bothered me.

 

[Vault101]

that's like asking if a character should wear black

[I/]it all depends[/I]

the gay example there are different ways to approach the "gay thing"...like EMAGERD! I'M GAY! in "but I'm a cheerleader" and "brokeback mountain"

or the gay relationship is a driving force but the fact that its gay is not the source of "drama" but fucked up situation is (see most books by Sara Waters....Fingersmith and The paying guests in particular)

or like OITNB...I think one thing people like about that show is it has a number of lesbian characters and not all of them fall into "conventionally attractive" the biggest example would be Boo, as stone cold dyke/butch as you can get...now Boo can certainly be a jerk (particually in season 2) but the thing about her is the whole butch lesbian as [/I]some awful trogdolite monster who "hits" on a poor "normal woman"[/I] is not present or if it Is its very downplayed, she's just boo. Then you've got Pousay and Nicki which are counterparts to our lead "palatably conventionally attractive" main couple of Piper and Alex

sometimes there's really nothing wrong with a character who "happens" to be gay, if hetro romances get their sub-plots why not gays?

 

[Mad as a Hatter]

It depends of the narrative. If its some psychological type of thing race, sexuality and gender can by vital information why the character is how they are. But if it's some space opera it might not matter, but it can give intresting dynamic to the characters let's say some rookie pilot is trans and they have being hiding it the whole season they come clean end of the season to main character. That can lead many intresting scenarios and give characters some character development. But you can also make the trans character a lead role and how she or he fits in the pilot academy. It can also be non issue in the sense because it's set in the future trans people are not met with prejudice and the character just havent told the other characters. It really depends on sercuntances of the narrative.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

This is more of a "can" than a "should" issue.

 

[Silvanus]

Either is good, (mostly) depending on the context.

If a cast has diverse members and attention is not brought to it, then it helps to normalise it. It gets rid of social stigma. If a cast has diverse members and their demographics do play into the plot, then it could help that book/film/game to tackle specific themes relating to those demographics.

Both have their benefits. I'd like to see more of both. Generally, the only thing I don't think we really need more of is uniformity.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

I reckon we could use a bit more of both. Have it be a big issue if the narrative calls for it, like if the game has a narrative dealing with social/moral issues etc.

Even if it's not a game like that, even if it's just another block-headed shooter, throwing them in mightn't be a bad idea, even if they do play into stereotypes/tropes, because let's be honest, generic-patriotic-soldier-white-guy is also a trope, adding more to a game full of them can't hurt.

Slightly off topic:
I've also been having a bit of an issue with the idea of "representation" lately as well. We say "This character represents X demographic", but why? Having a black character doesn't mean 'black people are represented', nor does having a white character, gay, lesbian, trans, bi, etc.
Do people honestly feel "represented" when a character with a trait the same as them walks in?

 

[mecegirl]

I'm fine with either, it just has to fit the plot. In some stories it may be unnecessary to make things about race,gender or sexuality. But one might not even need to make the story about diversity to showcase it. Something as simple as having an significant other be a minor chracter(something that is done with straight characters all the time) would be enough. So long as addressing diversity doesn't take the form of 'a very special episode' like some old sitcoms used to do. All of a sudden some form of ism would happen. Up to that point the sitcom existed in an utopian like setting without a hint of bigotry, but for that one episode the bigots come out. And after that episode the characters continue on like nothing ever happened.

 

[DC_78]

that's like asking if a character should wear black

[I/]it all depends[/I]

the gay example there are different ways to approach the "gay thing"...like EMAGERD! I'M GAY! in "but I'm a cheerleader" and "brokeback mountain"

or the gay relationship is a driving force but the fact that its gay is not the source of "drama" but fucked up situation is (see most books by Sara Waters....Fingersmith and The paying guests in particular)

or like OITNB...I think one thing people like about that show is it has a number of lesbian characters and not all of them fall into "conventionally attractive" the biggest example would be Boo, as stone cold dyke/butch as you can get...now Boo can certainly be a jerk (particually in season 2) but the thing about her is the whole butch lesbian as [/I]some awful trogdolite monster who "hits" on a poor "normal woman"[/I] is not present or if it Is its very downplayed, she's just boo. Then you've got Pousay and Nicki which are counterparts to our lead "palatably conventionally attractive" main couple of Piper and Alex

sometimes there's really nothing wrong with a character who "happens" to be gay, if hetro romances get their sub-plots why not gays?

Two words. Market demographics. Is writing a romance sub-plot for a LGBTQ character profitable? Which by the most recent survey in just America is 2% of the population? No? Then we focus on the pew pew's and other things.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/health-survey-americans-gay_n_5587696.html

I always get a kick out of these conversations on diversity when the quality in question is so concealed in the character that you actually have to dig into the character's sex life to find it. What most people here seem to be advocating for is tokenism.

The Ballad of Gay Tony was excellent, but really until his relationships come up in the story why does it matter that he is Gay Tony? It does not matter.

Master Chief is gay. Prove me wrong by only using in game knowledge. You can't.

Samus is lesbian. Prove me wrong with only using in game knowledge. From what I remember in the story you can't.

It really reminds me of the old Bio pages for characters the game instruction books used to have in them for Street Fighter.

Ryu

Date of Birth: 7-21-1964
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 150 lbs.
Blood type: O
Sexual orientation: Asexual(?)

So how about gender gets tossed onto a bio like this? If it has no need to be mentioned in the game play or the story then it does not matter. Just like the blood type or birthday. Do LGBTQ people NEED constant examples that yell "We're here! Look at us!" That just seems so pandering and tokenistic. Counter to every other diversity and inclusivity argument in real life for the normalization of "the other" into society. As long as the character is not a stereotype then why does it matter?

No one cares, except bigots, if the firefighter saving them from a burning building is gay or lesbian. No soldier cares that the guy next to them in the ambush is sleeping with Steve in the motor pool anymore. Congratulations! You've won acceptance. Just realise you're a small percentage of the population and as such a consumer product has more important things for them to worry about than a LGBTQ romance option in every RPG game.

After all no one cared that any of the Dragon Ages or Mass Effects did not have a black female romance option did they? Can't please everyone all the time.

 

[Vault101]

No one cares, except bigots, if the firefighter saving them from a burning building is gay or lesbian. No soldier cares that the guy next to them in the ambush is sleeping with Steve in the motor pool anymore. Congratulations! You've won acceptance. Just realise you're a small percentage of the population and as such a consumer product has more important things for them to worry about than a LGBTQ romance option in every RPG game.

wanna play ping pong? if no one cares then why NOT make someone gay? yeah I get market demographic the infallible chestnut...

I will say though I don't think it has to be off putting to have LBGT people in your work...straight people LOVE OITNB and its got more gay than straight (and the two main straight relationships are a.) boring and no one cares b.)kinda fucked up no matter how they try and spin it)

serious answer....acknowledging gay people exist is not token-ism...I'm sorry but who the frig are you to dictate to me what is and isn't pandering and token-ism?

I'll tell you why because its [I/]NICE[/I] to be see representation, its actually enjoyable, its actually helpful when you're part of a demographic that is still demonised, so YES people fucking care, gay people fucking care and even with all that said its not some big political statement that only exists to make them feel ok

its just NICE you know? just fucking nice once in a while

[quote/]After all no one cared that any of the Dragon Ages or Mass Effects did not have a black female romance option did they? Can't please everyone all the time.[/quote]
its not about pleasing everyone, its about be inclusive where appropriate

and do NOT fucking pull a "oppression is over" your post is indication its not, that's not your fucking call and quite frankly I'm border line- NO no I am offended

congratulations you offended me