Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Rebel_Raven]

Yes.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.

Alternatively

Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.

There, now everyone should be happy.

I know you're probably joking, or something, but why heap all the first example's qualities onto one character? Spread them out, randomize, and go for variety. Gaming in general will probably be better off for the variety, wouldn't it?

Example 2? why not? i'unno, sounds pretty new to me. Or atleast out of the norm. Sounds like variety! Huzzah!

 

[carnex]

To a degree, yes, feminism needs to be in gaming. It shouldn't -have- to be though. If the game industry would pull it's head out of it's ass, and start treating girls as gamers, and maybe pandering a wee bit more with a variety of characters that aren't all needlessly sexualized, and wearing outfits that leave little to the imagination.
I'm not saying that those "needlessly sexualized" characters can't exist, but they're pretty much the norm. Guys get sensible clothing a lot, and don't get put on covers with their butts on display for the purposes of titilation.
Sex sells, sure, but it can't be the mainstay of the industry. It -can- exist, but when it's the majority of what's being sold (and lets not kid ourselves, it has been, especially on the console front for at least a decade) it's going to wear thin!

Majority? Numbers I saw up to now go up to dizzy heights of 4%. Not quite majority I would say.

Sexualization in games at 4%? You'll have to pardon me if I misunderstood, here but, of what? Games in general? Well, sure since women rarely appear, nevermind are playable.
I'd rather look at the female population, and sexualization. When was the last time you saw an ugly woman? And how often do you see them? Game engines aside, like Fallout, and Elder Scrolls.

4% women playing games? Prolly coz of the game industrly abandoning them. I know I felt like that. <.<

But you're gunna have to elaborate here.

Not my number, just saw it thrown arround. Againa and again. By females and males.

That said, what games offended you or as I like to say chuffed your buttocks (keep calm, I say same for myself).

Also, largest gaming demographic today is females in late twenties, early thirties. Too bad they don't play games you do. I don't mean sarcastically, I really mean it, since if they did you would have games to cater to your taste. That said I don't poke nose in your stuff and complain, keep you nose out of mine. If we could do that it would be much better world.

Yes.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.

Alternatively

Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.

There, now everyone should be happy.

But that's so anti-christian!!!!

 

[Talvrae]

Why would it not mix... the thing the OP talk is not about feminism, it's just someones being rude... There is still no excuse for women being relegated to second role in video games and being belitered in them

 

[SmokingBomber465]

OP is the best "straw-man argument" person ever.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

To a degree, yes, feminism needs to be in gaming. It shouldn't -have- to be though. If the game industry would pull it's head out of it's ass, and start treating girls as gamers, and maybe pandering a wee bit more with a variety of characters that aren't all needlessly sexualized, and wearing outfits that leave little to the imagination.
I'm not saying that those "needlessly sexualized" characters can't exist, but they're pretty much the norm. Guys get sensible clothing a lot, and don't get put on covers with their butts on display for the purposes of titilation.
Sex sells, sure, but it can't be the mainstay of the industry. It -can- exist, but when it's the majority of what's being sold (and lets not kid ourselves, it has been, especially on the console front for at least a decade) it's going to wear thin!

Majority? Numbers I saw up to now go up to dizzy heights of 4%. Not quite majority I would say.

Sexualization in games at 4%? You'll have to pardon me if I misunderstood, here but, of what? Games in general? Well, sure since women rarely appear, nevermind are playable.
I'd rather look at the female population, and sexualization. When was the last time you saw an ugly woman? And how often do you see them? Game engines aside, like Fallout, and Elder Scrolls.

4% women playing games? Prolly coz of the game industrly abandoning them. I know I felt like that. <.<

But you're gunna have to elaborate here.

Not my number, just saw it thrown arround. Againa and again. By females and males.

That said, what games offended you or as I like to say chuffed your buttocks (keep calm, I say same for myself).

Also, largest gaming demographic today is females in late twenties, early thirties. Too bad they don't play games you do. I don't mean sarcastically, I really mean it, since if they did you would have games to cater to your taste. That said I don't poke nose in your stuff and complain, keep you nose out of mine. If we could do that it would be much better world.

Ah. I have no idea what that number means short of a reasonable guess at how many games per year at best let you play as a woman. <.<

It's not -games- in and of themselves that offend me on a game by game basis. I don't think I've seen a game that really offended me. I'm half asian, and laughed at playing the old Shadow Warrior.
Bayonetta, DoA and it's non core games, rumble roses, and Dragon's Crown don't offend me.
It's the fact that games, as a group, largely rely on oversexualized women, or at least sexy women. I'm not seeing a huge variety among them, I'm not seeing a lot of agency, and I'm definitely not seeing them very often. That's what bothers me.

Honestly, if the women saw games that included them, and interested them, and maybe had the women of the game reasonably dressed, not pointing their butts at the player on box art, or excessively/unnecessarily in game, women would come. It doesn't even have to be solely aimed at women, it just needs to be pretty inclusive. Treat them as gamers, and let them get pandered to some, especially on consoles to help get their feet wet, and you'll grow the product.

Even playing as I do, I'm hard pressed to pick up just any game these days. I mean I love gaming, but if I'm going to play an underwritten character, it's going to be a woman. <.<
I'm glad that this year felt more inclusive than years before.
I mean I can play as a guy if the game and character grabs my interest, but my bar's pretty high lately.

I grew up gaming, honestly. From the NES to PS3. I'm more tolerant to games catering more towards guys than anything, and getting little to nothing of bones thrown my way year after year in the past. Others might not be more forgiving, and those people should be considered.

 

[Ruzinus]

That fallacy centers around unrelated issues, and it centers around discussion.

So it applies to say, "Don't worry about your homework, worry about starving children in Africa."

But it doesn't apply to, "Should we spend money feeding starving children in Africa, or feeding starving children in our own country?"

When issues are related, say the glass ceiling and Princess Peach, it doesn't apply. For if we were to break the glass ceiling, the Princess Peach issue would solve itself by simply having more high powered women in the relevant workplaces.

N-
No.
Read it again. It is exactly about trying to trivialize any argument using the "there are more important problems" excuse, regardless of relevance. That is the basis. It's in the definition. Hell, they even gave you an example.

Man, I didn't think I'd have to explain this so many times.

Y-
Yes.

You solve portrayal of Peach, glass ceiling isn't affected.

You solve glass ceiling, the Peach problem goes away on its own.

It goes beyond argument, it is a problem that we can focus a resource on. That resource is, primarily, media attention. Anita Sarkeesian recently got a page in Wired. Using that page to feature Pratchett and #1reasonwhy would have been a more effective attack on the problem. The two problems are beyond "relevant," they are linked. Do you want to be treating the symptom, or the cause?

I doubt that I am on the same page as the OP, but I also doubt I am on the same page as you. You seem to be in a world of pure rhetoric. Such a world is an illusion.

 

[broca]

In responds to the OP: I don't really understand the argument you're trying to make by linking a single females behavior to some really basic arguments against feminism and games. So instead i will answer to your thread title, which i find much more interesting.

So, should feminism and gaming mix? First we have to define what that actually means. Feminism is either a science (or a paradigma used in other sciences) or a social movement (also as a name for a movement it is basically useless because of the many different and even contradicting positions that it incorporates). There is also specific feminist media (like feminist movies or even porn), but that's mostly a really tiny niche. Which leads us to 3 questions:

1. Should games be a subject of feminism as a science (or of games studies with a feminist paradigma)? Yes, why not. Science should further understanding of a subject and there is no reason why games shouldn't be such a subject. If you have a problem with such research, become a scientist and criticize it on a scientific basis. If it is used to make dubious claims to make a point (like claims that tropes lead to real world violence) fight it like equally dubious claims about other stuff (like claims that virtual violence leads to real world violence). The rest of the time it can safely be ignored as it is as unimportant to average gamers as film studies is to average movie goers.

2. Should feminism as social movement get involved with gaming? Yes, why not? There are some obvious problems (e.g. worse harassment for females) and more debatable problems (e.g. female representation and participation) that are linked at least partly to gender, so it's a natural topic for feminists and their involvement often leads to attention for such problems. Yeah, there are many worse problems, but everyone can choose how to spend their time and energy however they want. Of course, just because i think that there aren't any reasons why feminism in general shouldn't try to influence game makers or the gaming community, doesn't mean that i can't be critical of the ways feminists do it. I can both be critical of their reasons for involvement (e.g. claims of links between games and real world problems) and of the methods they use to try to influence games (e.g. too much talk about feminist theory, too much negative and too little positive messages and methods,...). To make it absolutely clear: being critical of the current ways feminists try to influence game makers or the gaming community shouldn't lead to the idea that feminism in general is the problem - the problem are some of the feminists currently doing it.

3. Should there be feminist games? Yes, why not? Either people play them or not. As long as no one forces me to play them (e.g. because feminist agenda gets shoehorned into unrelated games because of pressure by feminists) i couldn't care less.

 

[runic knight]

Show me the article that objectively discusses how there ?should be more games that appeal to a female audience?
(There are by the way, Social/Mobile, Dancing games like Just Dance, Puzzle/card games are actually played majorly by women, after all that number from the ESA that gets thrown around about 45% of women playing games has to come from somewhere: http://www.theesa.com/facts/ - and if 45% of women are already playing games, what exactly is the problem then? - they just don't happen to be First Person Shooters or Fighting games)
and doesn?t have that just crammed in as a byline somewhere with hit-generating headlines like ?Dragon?s Crown and the Sexism Debate?, ?Skullgirls artist responds to sexism controversy?, ?Dead or Alive 5 boss dodges sexism query with ?the cutest chicks in video games?? and we can start talking.

Actually, I tried hosting a conversation on how games could fairly and reasonable deal with the disparity of gender. Thread is still up too, if you want to contribute to it.


I get what you are saying here, and it is frustrating seeing how every article is presented as an accusation. But That may be more just how news wants to sensationalize for views now then hold any journalistic integrity, especially in relation to gaming or nerd culture, as anyone with half a finger on the pulse knows those topics always blow up with plenty of people checking it out in order to pointless bicker/defend.

--amended to better facilitate the discussion.--

 

[makano]

Is it so much of a crime to like big breasts now?

Why can't i look at the female form that gives me so much joy or is it because i am not looking at you.
But then you don't want me looking at you that's rape, so i turn to something i can look at but then i am shamed for looking at it.

Mixed signals please my female overladys tell me what i can enjoy without eye raping some innocent 3d sprite in a game

 

[Something Amyss]

Also, the idea that the last 30 years was "have been brutal for causes that are even remotely progressive" seems really of the mark when you look at the advances in gay rights over this time. Perhaps feminists should take a look at the gay rights movement and try to figure out what they did different.

You're pointing to the exception, rather than the rule. Which you also did in terms of the whole "I've seen feminists who do X" thing, but whatever. We're going backwards on civil rights and trying to outlaw ANY abortion, but gays have had a selectively rosy path, so...ponies?

Yeah, sounds like ponies to me.

Although, I would note I was talking in terms of branding, but you seem to have an issue with context as a whole. For example:

Nope, the whole controversy started when kotaku personally attacked the maker of dragons crown for his art style and the maker responded with personal attacks.

Yup. Except that didn't start the debacle in question.

I don't know whether you know, but fiction is mostly read by women (according to this article women make up 80% of fiction readers and i would guess that even of that 20% many read stuff like military fiction or scifi http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229 ) and somehow that isn't that big of a deal for anyone. This shows that highly gendered media doesn't seem to be a problem in general and begs the question if the attacks against gaming for being a gendered media aren't a bit hypocrite.

That's rather dishonest of you. While fiction is mostly read by women, it doesn't actually preclude men and it doesn't relegate them to the "casual" market. Not only is there plenty of fiction out there for men, it is offered by major publication houses, promoted and even sold on the same shelves.

That in no way runs parallel to gaming. Not only that, but I'm yet to see anyone threatened with rape or murder for suggesting more books for men.

If these criteria were met, your argument would be valid and there would be parity. It does show that gendered media in general isn't a problem, but it doesn't beg any question about hypocrisy, because the literary market is relatively open.

Different standards for different approaches to the gender bias.

By all appearances, the gender gap in literature is one primarily of choice. The option is there. If that were the case in gaming, things would not be at issue.

 

[Something Amyss]

You're not a mind reader you don't know whether they considered women or not, and it's very possible they put them in both to attract women and play off a 'power fantasy' or just the first one.

I'm not a mind-reader. It's just been established they leave women out of focus groups, marketing, etc.

But I can't read minds, so that's all invalid.

Gotcha.

 

[carnex]

Ah. I have no idea what that nmber means short of a reasonable guess at howm any games per year at best let you play as a woman. <.<

It's not -games- in and of themselves that offend me on a game by game basis. I don't think I've seen a game that really offended me. I'm half asian, and laughed at playing the old Shadow Warrior.
Bayonetta, DoA and it's non core games, rumble roses, and Dragon's Crown don't offend me.
It's the fact that games, as a group, largely rely on oversexualized women, or at least sexy women. I'm not seeing a huge variety among them, I'm not seeing a lot of agency, and I'm definitely not seeing them very often. That's what bothers me.

Honestly, if the women saw games that included them, and interested them, and maybe had the women of the game reasonably dressed, not pointing their butts at the player on box art, or excessively/unnecessarily in game, women would come. It doesn't even have to be solely aimed at women, it just needs to be pretty inclusive. Treat them as gamers, and let them get pandered to some, especially on consoles to help get their feet wet, and you'll grow the product.

Even playing as I do, I'm hard pressed to pick up just any game these days. I mean I love gaming, but if I'm going to play an underwritten character, it's going to be a woman. <.<
I'm glad that this year felt more inclusive than years before.
I mean I can play as a guy if the game and character grabs my interest, but my bar's pretty high lately.

I grew up gaming, honestly. From the NES to PS3. I'm more tolerant to games catering more towards guys than anything, and getting little to nothing of bones thrown my way year after year in the past. Others might not be more forgiving, and those people should be considered.

Yea, you might think again about why females are not included in games in some instances. It's not a new thing. Even Final Fight got riped up. Anyway Activision included female characters in multiplayer and they are not having a field day.

I think you are seeing a lot of things but not really what I see. Few games, outside MMOs, rely on sexy female to sell themselves. And even in MMOs they are used as a cream on a cupcake, not cupcake itself. Nor do I see over sexualized girls on game covers (actually I want to see more females on them when females are important part of the game). Those days are behind us, covers no longer sell games the way they used to.

But, again, women are as numerous as men in gaming, and largest demographics group in gaming is actually female. But they don't play on PS3, or any console. They are not interested in CoD, or Street Fighter, or Uncharted which has some of best female characters in gaming to date or Bayonetta which is greatest female empowerment statement in gaming history or even something cute and innocent like Giana Sisters Twisted Dream. They play different games and those games get geared towards female demographics.

To say again, I know what it's like to be messed up in gaming world. My nationality is, outside 4X games, either War Criminal or Terrorist. But you don't see me going around complaining. I'm not target demographic so I'm out of luck.

 

[Depulcator]

The way this sounds, Feminism is gonna be the new multiplayer of video games. Oh you wanted more story? Nah, we cut that out for Feminism. More levels? Sorry research shows that Feminism is what all games must have. Also, there needs to be an official Escapist Feminism drinking game.

 

[Something Amyss]

Is it so much of a crime to like big breasts now?

Did anyone actually say or imply it was?

anyone with half a finger on the pulse knows those topics always blow up with plenty of people checking it out in order to *****/defend.

That language is hardly conducive to reasonable discussion.

 

[carnex]

Yes.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.

Alternatively

Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.

There, now everyone should be happy.

I know you're probably joking, or something, but why heap all the first example's qualities onto one character? Spread them out, randomize, and go for variety. Gaming in general will probably be better off for the variety, wouldn't it?

Example 2? why not? i'unno, sounds pretty new to me. Or atleast out of the norm. Sounds like variety! Huzzah!

Gish?
That's actual a game called "Gish"

But I count on you to find something bad about it