Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[jehk]

Yes, the generalization is what gets my goat. And I do think the videogame industry has problems, many of them, but not all of them apply to every part of it equally. I can partially understand the grievances here, since the high profile AAA scene indeed seems to be over-saturated with sexualization both in marketing and in product, but people need to understand that's not all the videogame industry is.

People make generalizations because its impossible to refer to all of those specific instances every time. It's just shorthand.

Am I supposed to keep a wiki of all these specific examples and throw it down when I say "The video game industry has a problem representing women?"

Of course we can, but we need to understand that it's a more complex thing than it simply being "sexist", end of story. Oh, and I do wish we'd see a few more dudes in distress as well, last one I really remember was Atton Rand.

So we can't complain about damsels in distress because dudes in distress exist? Also, some things are just sexist, end of story. Sometimes its not more complicated than that.

 

[carnex]

Oh ok, glad that was cleared up, lol. Anyway, why do I have to own my sexuality? What is my sexuality? Do you know? I don't like seeing big boobs jiggle and I don't like seeing naked women on my screen. What does that have to do with my sexuality?

What I wanted to say is: Don't be uncomfortable with naked bodies". It's what we are, much more then us in clothes. Everyone who I know who has problem with such things acutally has problems with nakedness or it's own body/self image. No malice implied, just my experience.

 

[Nexxis]

Oh ok, glad that was cleared up, lol. Anyway, why do I have to own my sexuality? What is my sexuality? Do you know? I don't like seeing big boobs jiggle and I don't like seeing naked women on my screen. What does that have to do with my sexuality?

What I wanted to say is: Don't be uncomfortable with naked bodies". It's what we are, much more then us in clothes. Everyone who I know who has problem with such things acutally has problems with nakedness or it's own body/self image. No malice implied, just my experience.

Ah ok. I don't like seeing naked people, much less sexualized naked people (male or female). I'm asexual. I prefer to not see sexual or sexualized content in the games that I play. XD Also, I'm sure many guys would not be ok seeing sexualized naked men sprawled out on the screen, but that's an assumption since I haven't witnessed such an event myself.

 

[carnex]

Oh ok, glad that was cleared up, lol. Anyway, why do I have to own my sexuality? What is my sexuality? Do you know? I don't like seeing big boobs jiggle and I don't like seeing naked women on my screen. What does that have to do with my sexuality?

What I wanted to say is: Don't be uncomfortable with naked bodies". It's what we are, much more then us in clothes. Everyone who I know who has problem with such things acutally has problems with nakedness or it's own body/self image. No malice implied, just my experience.

Ah ok. I don't like seeing naked people, much less sexualized naked people (male or female). I'm asexual. I prefer to not see sexual or sexualized content in the games that I play. XD Also, I'm sure many guys would not be ok seeing sexualized naked men sprawled out on the screen, but that's an assumption since I haven't witnessed such an event myself.

OK, thank you for being so sincere.

You would be right about certain percentage of men (usually jocks), and my answer always is "What's your problem? Never looked at mirror?"

Cho Aniki games are phenomenon that splits internet to this day

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You would be right about certain percentage of men (usually jocks), and my answer always is "What's your problem? Never looked at mirror?"

Well, there's a line between "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body" and "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body with a penis the size of an umbrella stand, swinging about while the male avatar grunts suggestively" and "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body with a penis the size of an umbrella stand, swinging about while the male avatar grunts suggestively in a distressingly high percentage of titles".

This is the argument I imagine some people are making, just reverse the gender.

 

[Nexxis]

OK, thank you for being so sincire.

You would be right about certain percentage of men (usually jocks), and my answer always is "What's your problem? Never looked at mirror?"

Cho Aniki games are fenomenon that splits internet to this day

I had to look that game up. I remember seeing quick playthroughs of it and laughed the whole way XD. To be honest, I think I lot of people (westerners at least) play it for the WTF factor rather than any visual gratification. Though I could be wrong on that ^^; At least, of the playthroughs I've seen, that seems to be why they played it.

 

[carnex]

You would be right about certain percentage of men (usually jocks), and my answer always is "What's your problem? Never looked at mirror?"

Well, there's a line between "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body" and "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body with a penis the size of an umbrella stand, swinging about while the male avatar grunts suggestively" and "I am comfortable seeing a naked male body with a penis the size of an umbrella stand, swinging about while the male avatar grunts suggestively in a distressingly high percentage of titles".

This is the argument I imagine some people are making, just reverse the gender.

Sorry, still don't care. Really those things rarely bother me. What botheres me is when sexuality actually detracts from something or implies something trully grotesque.

For example I would hate to see sexualization in Pan's Labyrinth or Journey. It would detract from experience.

 

[Vegosiux]

People make generalizations because its impossible to refer to all of those specific instances every time. It's just shorthand.

Am I supposed to keep a wiki of all these specific examples and throw it down when I say "The video game industry has a problem representing women?"

You'll inevitably be asked if you got anything more than your own opinion behind those words on pretty much anything you say, regarding any issue. Helps if you do, and if you can properly explain what you have leads to the conclusion you made. And even then, you'll most likely be asked why you're projecting issues found in a specific subset of the industry onto the whole industry.

Such projections are dangerous.

"There are videogames that represent women in a sexist and bigoted manner, therefore the videogame industry has a problem with misrepresenting women."

"There are religious people who suicide-bomb places in the name of their religion, therefore their religion has a problem with violence."

"There are feminists who actually hate men and see them as lesser beings, therefore the feminism movement has a problem with misandry."

"There are men who beat their wives, therefore the male gender has a problem with abusing their spouses."

"There are humans who are sociopathic killers, therefore humanity has a problem of being a race of sociopathic killers."

What all those statements do is take an undersirable trait of a part of the whole, and project it on the whole as if it applied to the entire population, without giving any regard to first checking how prevalent such occurrences are. That's why I maintain it needs to be determined just what chunk of the entire population the "undesirables" represent if we want to talk about how prevalent and serious a problem is or isn't within said population.

Of course, we can always address the issues directly too, we're not limited to doing one or the other.

So we can't complain about damsels in distress because dudes in distress exist?

What.

Also, some things are just sexist, end of story. Sometimes its not more complicated than that.

Some things are. But I disagree with the notion that Damsel in Distress is "just sexist".

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh I have heard many from people who believe it 'impacts' them, like it was some sort of government policy with sweeping implications. My personal favourite was 'Women made Twilight popular!' spat with zero trace of irony.

Yeah, I've seen it. And to be fair, Twilight is the worst thing ever and you're forced to watch/read it, right?

Well, in my case, I might be. I think the only way to get out of it is to break up with my girlfriend.

Actually, weird side note, I just read a book so bad I now have to read Twilight because I refuse to believe it could possibly be any worse. Or even close to as bad. Oh, I'm sure it actually sucks, and the samples I've read were bad, but....

Anyway, yeah. A lot of people seem to think it'll impact them in all sorts of weird ways. Though the Feminist World Order thing confuses me. We're not supposed to take over America and forcibly feminise men until 2020....

...I've said too much.

Soooo...
What can one draw to attract women?

Well, that's kind of a disingenuous response. The point is to target men, and women attracted are a secondary function if even that. Women liking the men is an afterthought or a non-thought. This is why women are precluded from the test marketing, playgroups, and general consciousness of mainstream publishing.

Yup. Some women like Kratos. But that was never the point. Kratos wasn't made with women in mind. He was made with male egos in mind.

Or is it male Eggos?

We could debate what women want, but that's pointless. I'm not even saying (and nobody should say) that all dudes like body type X, but they're still pandering to a fairly boilerplate ideal of what men wish they could look like.

You're never going to target to 100% saturation. Men are no more a hive-mind than women, and either idea is absurd. But again, that wasn't what was being proposed, and therefore wasn't what I was addressing.

Are you going to sit there and say that when a christian blows something up it's not presented as all Christians being terrorists? I still see people saying that and I have yet to see the christian blowing things up.

Can you give me an example that isn't more or less immediately shot down?

Maybe you should get off the pedestal and see that this is something that goes for all groups, not just women and muslims.

I see I've touched a nerve. However, I was not on a pedestal, kind sir. I was merely recounting things as they are. I apologise if you infered proseltysing, but I am not responsible for the inference you take.

However, if you believe there is any significant portion of the American consciousness that believes Christians=terrorists instead of or on par with the belief that Muslims=terrorists, I suspect you infer things far more worrisome than what I believe.

Notice Zimmerman was only "white" when he was the evil guy that shot the poor innocent black kid. He is called "Hispanic" when it's found that it was likely self defense.

Isn't it funny how that works?

Actually, it's not. But nor is that the case. He was white right up until he shot someone. Suddenly, everyone was rushing to point out he wasn't, he was hispanic.

Incidentally, the two are not mutually exclusive, so you're not making much of a point. Just demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Something Amyss]

As I said, you look at graphs and if females don't play that genre, you don't have a reason to cater to them.

As I said, you look at graphs and if females don't play that genre, you don't have a reason to cater to them.

Yes, because "graphs" are magical sources of information. How do you think companies do market research? Also, have you heard of untapped markets?

Not to mention, it describes things as they are. Would anyone be surprised to find graphs of genres that preclude women would have fewer women in them?

Publishers are constatly trying to market to larger audiences, which usually happen to be male audiences. It seems stupid to admit you want to expand your userbase, and immediately preclude a group.

 

[runic knight]

should they mix?

Well, depends what you mean. If you mean should feminist ideas be explored within video games? Well, yes. Why the hell not? Bioshock series has shown a great way to explore ideas and have an ideological lean while still being fun, engaging and great overall games. I'd love a well made and executed game using feminist ideas as underlying themes as a triple A blockbuster game. Would be interesting.


If you mean should feminist theory itself apply to gaming as a whole, then no, it should not. In the same way no other ideological stance should be applied to the hobby, be it as a judgement or as a guide to follow, feminism is no different. Games are art damn it and even the worst sell out games should not have to meet someone else's standards of what is morally or culturally right any more then any movie, tv show, book, poem or painting. Let art stand by their own merits and be judged by the individuals partaking it. Hell, since no one is being hurt by the games (no, I don't count self inflicted, when games are a voluntary medium no one is forcing anyone else to partake in. And no, claims that it makes people behave a certain way don't cut it unless you have something solid to back it) let them explore whatever ideas they want and live or die by their own merits. Want a game where you rape penguins in Egyptian zoos? Well, not sure why you'd want that, but knock yourself out weirdo.

 

[Psychobabble]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

Not so judging by your hackneyed and anecdotal evidence. That aside however, if women are playing video games and feel they are being unfairly represented by the gaming industry or community, then yes of course feminism and video games should mix. This doesn't mean I support arguments from someone such as Anita Sarkissian however as I find her evidence is often hackneyed and anecdotal as well. But I do feel there is a need for gender equilibrium in gaming and highly encourage that women take a stance and let their voices be heard.

 

[Redd the Sock]

The problem is, the internet gets people to overestimate their own demographic because it's so easy for like minded people to find each other.

It's a salient point, but insular communities and confirmation bias cuts both ways. We're just as likely to dismiss a complaint or viewpoint because it does not reflect our own anecdotal experience, beliefs, or social group as we are to endorse one.

Remember Me had the female protagonist people say the want more of, but it's also sold terribly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#General_pattern

Remember Me was also a terrible game.

Point 1 can be a different issue due to fickle nature: ie: I said "yellow" but meant "a very specific shade of yellow". Complaints about the portrayal of women can be very valid, but also very nitpicky. Lara Crofts chest devalued a very strong female character in a lot of eyes. The new game was avoided by people due to a few second scene in a trailer and developer comment. The wrong statement, attitude, or even an optional costume can "ruin" a good female portrayal to some. And at that point, it isn't worth the effort to try and appeal to that demographic.

There's some truth to this, but there are plenty of games that get the "feminism seal of approval" without trying very hard, or making the fact their character is female virtually the entire selling point of the game and the sole focus of their marketing campaign. You can sell to a demographic without necessarily having to PANDER to them.

1. PANDERING - Our game has a black astronaut who is also a doctor and the world's greatest living genius. Here is a sequence where he saves 11,000 puppies.
2. NORMAL - Our game has a well written black character.
3. BAD - Our game has blackface. Don't give us that look, we're just appealing to the demographic that enjoys blackface. There's no pleasing everyone!

EDIT - Upon re-reading this, the original Lara Croft was NEVER a strong character. She barely qualified as a "character" at all, being a mere one notch above silent placeholders like Gordon Freeman in terms of fleshing out.

In fairness to the original Lara, most characters back then outside of RPGs were fairly one dimensional silent protagonists. Still, she wasn't a damsel, seemed strong, confident, athletic, and brassy, so there's a lot to admire there, particularity at the time. Let her serve as a pin-up as well, and all that went out the airlock.

Of course "well written" is in the eye of the beholder, thus it's a vague term. Ironically, being well fleshed out means it's more likely that a flaw will fit in, and the character will not appeal to an ideal. A black character might actually like fried chicken and watermelon despite the stereotype behind the foods to black culture, or a badass woman might have a thing for pink teddy bears. Hell, there could even be a well written character that's one big stereotype is there are reasons for it, whereas pre-other M Samus was a feminist ideal, but was very poorly developed as anything other than a silent protagonist.

I really only mention remember Me since it is put out there as "see how sexist the industry is" bits since it did have to fight for a female lead. My response it usually "did you buy it" and if the answer is no, then "it isn't the industry's fault for following the money, it's your for not supporting what you say you want when it gets here, and no excuses about the game sucking, you should have supported a game doing what you wanted." I could probably come up with some other games for the mold, but for now, it fits. The thing is, limited options should push up the sales charts if the demographic is there as, if you're the only female lead in town, you get all the business while males leads split the sales. When excuses get made, credibility of the fanbase gets shot, especially in the digital age where you aren't cut off from anything you want.

 

[carnex]

Might I recommend Odin's Sphere to you if you have a PS2 then? Great game with that artstyle and non of the female PC's have large breasts. Only notable character in that game with big breasts is Odette, the queen of the dead.

Awww, I don't have a PS2, unfortunately, but it looks pretty cool. The monsters look amazing. Some of the look of the characters still rubs me the wrong way, but not quite as bad as Dragon' Crown, at least.

I don't know how powerful your computer is and how good you are with them but you could get emulator going (perfectly legal if you own games). For most systems at least. And Vanilaware has some great games for you

Princess Crown (Sega Saturn, Playstaton portable)
Odin's Sphere (Playstation 2)
Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Nintendo Wii, Playstation Vita)
Grand Knight History (Playstation Portable)

And emulators

Sega Saturn - SSF, GiriGiri. games are really hard to come by
Plastation Portable - PPSSPP
Playstation 2 - PCSX2
Nintendo Wii - doplhin, requiers quite a lot of power under a hood

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Anything is open to scrutiny and criticism, and here's a little secret, you don't actually have to be right or even smart to have an opinion.

That said, I can totally see why a woman would be put off by dead or alive, or having to play as a dude 90% of the time there's a set protagonist. I don't know if that kind of complaint even counts as feminism. When accusations of sexism are thrown at a game like the puppeteer, where your character is a mother fucking puppet because it's a BOY puppet, because PATRIARCHY, yeah you're kind of a fucking loon. You're still allowed to make that accusation mind you, but nobody is going to agree with you except other loons.

Even something like dragon's crown where that kind of scrutiny is warranted (and not because of the sorceress, BTW. Apparently all the NPCs look like that too, not that anyone knew that when they started complaining about it before the game's release) is not done in that way because PATRIARCHY. It's done like that because "boys like boobs, boys play games, lets have boobs." That's where that thought starts and ends.

Another thing to note is that making that point here, in a forum, where people willingly engage in a discussion, is much different from doing it to complete strangers who don't give a shit. If you start complaining about sexism to people trying to just enjoy a fucking videogame yes, they will make fun of you.

So I guess what I'm saying is that first and foremost, gaming is a place of enjoyment, and if you come into that sirens blaring screaming "YOUR FUN IS OFFENDING ME" it's natural that people aren't going to be receptive to it, even if you're in the right and ESPECIALLY if you're in the wrong. But I do also think gaming is a place for everyone, and the gaming community needs to be more open to discussion about it, at least if you're the kind of person who gives enough of a shit to go talk about videogames after you're done playing them. I don't like or agree with Anita Sarkeesian very much, but the fact that she was able to raise 175 thousand dollars if nothing else is a sign that women feel like they need to at least have a voice be heard on this matter. Frankly I think they deserve better than Anita, but the fact that level of desperation exists is a sign that a big part of this community isn't satisfied with the way that it is, and they deserve to at very least be heard out.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I really only mention remember Me since it is put out there as "see how sexist the industry is" bits since it did have to fight for a female lead. My response it usually "did you buy it" and if the answer is no, then "it isn't the industry's fault for following the money, it's your for not supporting what you say you want when it gets here, and no excuses about the game sucking, you should have supported a game doing what you wanted." I could probably come up with some other games for the mold, but for now, it fits. The thing is, limited options should push up the sales charts if the demographic is there as, if you're the only female lead in town, you get all the business while males leads split the sales. When excuses get made, credibility of the fanbase gets shot, especially in the digital age where you aren't cut off from anything you want.

Well, no. If someone releases a bad product, you are not obligated to buy that product just because you stumped for one particular element of it. I love tactical turn base combat games and constantly shout for more to be made, but there's a given assumption there that I expect them to maintain a reasonable quality standard. I have a hard time thinking you'd find a single rational human being who would advocate for buying garbage simply because you approved of one thing.

You seem to be conflating "Want female leads" with "Females lead is the ONLY thing they want, everything else is irrelevant". I may want an amazing hot dog, but if you serve it to me in a moldy bun with shit for condiments, I'm going to send it back, and no amount of "YOU ASKED FOR A HOT DOG EAT YOUR HOT DOG" is going to convince me otherwise.

 

[TaboriHK]

Another thread that from the very title onwards illustrates exactly why gaming badly needs female equality.

 

[carnex]

I really only mention remember Me since it is put out there as "see how sexist the industry is" bits since it did have to fight for a female lead. My response it usually "did you buy it" and if the answer is no, then "it isn't the industry's fault for following the money, it's your for not supporting what you say you want when it gets here, and no excuses about the game sucking, you should have supported a game doing what you wanted." I could probably come up with some other games for the mold, but for now, it fits. The thing is, limited options should push up the sales charts if the demographic is there as, if you're the only female lead in town, you get all the business while males leads split the sales. When excuses get made, credibility of the fanbase gets shot, especially in the digital age where you aren't cut off from anything you want.

Well, no. If someone releases a bad product, you are not obligated to buy that product just because you stumped for one particular element of it. I love tactical turn base combat games and constantly shout for more to be made, but there's a given assumption there that I expect them to maintain a reasonable quality standard. I have a hard time thinking you'd find a single rational human being who would advocate for buying garbage simply because you approved of one thing.

You seem to be conflating "Want female leads" with "Females lead is the ONLY thing they want, everything else is irrelevant". I may want an amazing hot dog, but if you serve it to me in a moldy bun with shit for condiments, I'm going to send it back, and no amount of "YOU ASKED FOR A HOT DOG EAT YOUR HOT DOG" is going to convince me otherwise.

Have you played Remember Me? What I hear from people I trust is that it's repetetive and really strange controlls that dont really give in to easy use but that it's worth it to experience the defining "mind altering" mechanics.