Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[carnex]

And as someone said on this thread before, no reasonable person has actively called for that, and yet people immediately run to that as an excuse to not do anything. People are asking for more, not less. They way people act sometimes, it seems like the underlying problem is that they do have a problem with more games for women and more female protagonists and justifying it with "they're actually planning to censor all of our stuff!!"

Yet you speak againt those games and don't want to see that conten in them, and don't want to have a reason to skip games. Only way out of that, that i see, is to remove content from games all together.

 

[kenu12345]

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Ok ok Dragon's Crown never bothered me or anything, but come on man there is no way your fiance has them that big

 

[carnex]

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Ok ok Dragon's Crown never bothered meor anything, but come on man there is no way your fiance has them that big

belive me, you have no idea. Ofcourse, they are not baloons like in game. She isn't silicon doll. But there are women who have naturally large breasts and when they are chubby breasts get even larger. Not to mention she is sex months pregnant now.

 

[Nexxis]

And as someone said on this thread before, no reasonable person has actively called for that, and yet people immediately run to that as an excuse to not do anything. People are asking for more, not less. They way people act sometimes, it seems like the underlying problem is that they do have a problem with more games for women and more female protagonists and justifying it with "they're actually planning to censor all of our stuff!!"

Yet you speak againt those games and don't want to see that conten in them, and don't want to have a reason to skip games. Only way out of that, that i see, is to remove content from games all together.

And yet, I didn't say that. In fact, at no point did I say that the content should be removed. In many cases, people never say that they want censorship or for content to be removed from a game. That is an automatic assumption that people make, hence why I think that people do have an underlying issue with people wanting different female characters. In the two games that I've listed that have irked me lately, I said what I don't like in them. If I had to make a change to them, you know what I'd like to see? Options. A toggle switch. Maybe even a different version. The original can stay for people who want it. But my words will be twisted to make it sound like I'm calling out for rampant censorship of material I don't like.

 

[Robert Marrs]

Ideologies don't deserve a voice in what happens with video games. Not religions, not political groups and certainly not feminism. If feminists care about what video games do and don't do they should either make the games they want to make or just not buy the ones they feel are offensive. Trying to force developers to change the way they make their product because you feel like its offensive is no different than religious groups trying to ban games they feel is offensive. There is zero difference. Censorship is wrong. If you vote with your wallets and enough people agree with you then eventually you will get your way. Otherwise stop trying to force the rest of the world to subscribe to your world view.

 

[Vegosiux]

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

You're missing the point. The reason men don't read those novels is because they have plenty of other options to turn to. Those novels don't represent a significant portion of available books. The kind of books men want to read are being made.

A growing number of women don't feel the same way about games.

I'd actually really like to know for sure what portion of all games "those games" represent. I'm pretty sure that "those games" are much more common in some genres than others, but we can't just exclude the genres they tend not to appear in if we want to talk about the "industry" in its entirety. You don't make an argument with phrases like "a number of..." or "there's a certain prevalence..."; you make it by stating what that number is, and give at least a good approximation of the prevalence, based on actual research data.

I mean, the only sample I have is my collection, and in that one, an overwhelming majority is not "those games", but then again, there's a lot of indie stuff, puzzle games, RTS stuff in it etc. But of course, that sample is biased because of my genre preferences and aversion to the AAA sequelitis. If I (or anyone, for that matter) would draw a representative sample from a list of all video games, then we'd be able to get some actual, concrete numbers and a more solid basis for discussion.

Really, this is my, for the moment, final take on it. Before I further discuss this "prevalence of sexism in video game industry", I'd like some hard numbers. Yes, I know Dragon's Crown has a sorceress with tits bigger than her head. Yes, I know Kratos is a burly hunk because guys like imagining themselves as burly hunks kicking ass and banging chicks. But if we want to talk about the actual status of the industry as a whole, we don't have a basis to do so if we simply keep adding names to the "those games" list. We also need to check how many "not those games" there are to every one "that game" in existance. Something, so far, nobody has ever done as far as I know, but also something without which you don't have a basis to establish any kind of prevalence figures.

Also, "what kind of games do women want to play?" I don't know, that questions seems stupid to me. Women aren't a hive mind, and all. I mean, are we trying to break down gender stereotypes here, or to foster them? My ex loved the Stronghold series and regularly kicked my ass. My sister loves Tomb Raider and Bomberman. There was a chick back in high school who was a Quake 2 nerd and was very fun to play with.

So, let me propose an alternative. Let's quit talking about "video game industry" as one amorphous blob, but rather start looking at individual genres. I mean everything is a bit easier if you slice it up into more manageable parts.

Got a huge number of "those games" in the connect-3 puzzlers? No? Great, that's already hundreds of games to play. Racing games? No? Great, another few hundreds perfectly good games that don't exhibit such trends. Real-time strategy? Looks pretty decent, moving on. Tower defense? Also not that problematic. Cover-based shooters? Whoa there, why am I mostly stuck with dudes as protagonists? Now these games need some work and some extra variety, let's start here.

For example.

 

[carnex]

And yet, I didn't say that. In fact, at no point did I say that the content should be removed. In many cases, people never say that they want censorship or for content to be removed from a game. That is an automatic assumption that people make, hence why I think that people do have an underlying issue with people wanting different female characters. In the two games that I've listed that have irked me lately, I said what I don't like in them. If I had to make a change to them, you know what I'd like to see? Options. A toggle switch. Maybe even a different version. The original can stay for people who want it. But my words will be twisted to make it sound like I'm calling out for rampant censorship of material I don't like.

Wow, do you know how much that would cost. Most of games today are made by teams that operate with small budget and even smaller number of people. They literary squeeze every ounce of effort and every dollar out of themselves to make best product they can. And if there isn't significant number of customers among their target demographic that would be offended at certain content what would be like burning money and wasting time.

Plus many of them are working out of enthusiasm. How much enthusiasm would you have to make something that's not your dream?

Given that you could make that request to big publishers and I would tell you, go ahead. They have the resources for something like that.

 

[carnex]

--

I have seem quotes from 2-4 percent of games contain something offensive to feminists.

 

[Bruce]

It's worth pointing out a very simple business argument -- if you can get away with paying women 70-odd percent of what you pay men to do exactly the same job at the same output, why wouldn't you fire every man you possibly could, hire a cheaper but equally effective woman in his place, and save 20-odd percent of your labor costs (which are usually the single biggest cost to any company)?

Actually labour costs are generally not the biggest cost to any company. A company will generally spend more on stock unless it is a pure service industry. Particularly in this day and age of heavy automation.

Firing people is incredibly unpleasant, generally whoever you hire in their place will require training and hiring someone new is always a gamble. You never quite know if they will even be trainable.

You can generally hire a university graduate much cheaper than someone with five years experience - yet you will go with those five years of experience. Why? Google Ann7.

Workplace culture is built on relationships, mass firings of productive staff can wreck a productive culture, meaning you have to start from scratch with people who don't trust you because what is to stop you firing them when a cheaper option comes along?

Even further than that, a lot of the people you would be firing would have relationships with your customers. Saving 20% on your labour overhead isn't going to do you much good if your former sales force just took your customers to your competition.

Another issue is that interviewers have their own biases, which have a noted and highly powerful effect.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-09/science-faculty-subtlety-judge-female-students-less-competent

People, particularly Austrian School Economists, always forget that business isn't just something that happens on a spreadsheet, it is people who have biases.

 

[generals3]

I believe feminism should stay away of games. And that for a simple reason: those who complain about it seem to not know jack about the issue. Let me elaborate: most people defend their complaints with "we're not trying to censor anything and we don't want all T&A (or whatever) to go away, we just want less". Here's the problem though, no one has ever given a percentage of the games in the industry which are actually sexist/women-unfriendly. Let me put some extra emphasis: no-one. How can someone make the claim there is too much of something if they don't know how much of said something there actually is? If you're going to act all self-righteous you better have a good case.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

So, name me what games offended you recently and why?

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

Divinity: Dragon Commander. A complete blank slate main character and you can't pick their gender? Furthermore, you have to marry a princess in it and deal with her problems or whatever? Why can't we pick the gender like for Divinity 2: Ego Dragonis and have the game work around that? I was kind of looking forward to the game, mostly because of the dragons, but not if I have to wear a man suit to play it.

These are the most recent ones. Other than that, I've had my face buried in Guild Wars 2, where I can play as a charr, fully decked out in heavy armor, wielding a greatsword, hacking and slashing at enemies while openly mocking them.... because that's fun.

Might I recommend Odin's Sphere to you if you have a PS2 then? Great game with that artstyle and non of the female PC's have large breasts. Only notable character in that game with big breasts is Odette, the queen of the dead.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Plus many of them are working out of enthusiasm. How much enthusiasm would you have to make something that's not your dream?

Given that you could make that request to big publishers and I would tell you, go ahead. They have the resources for something like that.

I think most of us make due with a minimal amount of "enthusiasm" for our jobs, and yet somehow manage to meet or exceed expectations. You can take pride in work whether or not it's your "dream".

And people can direct their feedback/make requests of anyone they wish. If you ran a car manufacturer, and a statistically significant portion of the population told you they WOULD buy your car, if only it came in yellow, what would your response be?

1. Make a yellow car.
2. Say "There's lots of other yellow cars out there, why don't you go drive one of those!"

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Not on that frame, she doesn't, unless they were purchased. And even then she's in for some serious back problems. Heavy breasts are traditionally found on correspondingly heavy women.

Also, it's possible to be a heterosexual man and still be embarrassed by the juvenile fixation the industry has on elephantine breasts. It's also possible to be a heterosexual man and prefer smaller breasts.

 

[carnex]

--

One of the reason for that bias is insecurity. You never know when female employee is going to get pregnant and leave for 18-24 months. She might never do that, but fear is based on realistic problem. So unless woman out qualifies a man, he is usually seen as more reliable choice. Nature screwed women over on this one.

 

[Simonism451]

Yes, just like feminism and about anything else should mix (well, apart from feminism and racism, homophobia, etc.). That doesn't mean every game has to be about feminism, or even feature an equal cast of characters but generally seeing a wider variety in the subjects of games and how they approach that subject is nothing but a good thing. And yes moaning about what is lame in videogames now, in the actual games and also the industry, will ideally lead publishers to notice that there's a market for games that aren't just white brown-haired dudes shooting at brown bald dudes and perhaps lead them to invest more in the people that want to make them.

 

[jehk]

Got a huge number of "those games" in the connect-3 puzzlers? No? Great, that's already hundreds of games to play. Racing games? No? Great, another few hundreds perfectly good games that don't exhibit such trends. Real-time strategy? Looks pretty decent, moving on. Tower defense? Also not that problematic. Cover-based shooters? Whoa there, why am I mostly stuck with dudes as protagonists? Now these games need some work and some extra variety, let's start here.

Are you saying we should't complain because plenty of games exist that don't have some of the problems mentioned here and else where?

 

[carnex]

Not on that frame, she doesn't, unless they were purchased. And even then she's in for some serious back problems. Heavy breasts are traditionally found on correspondingly heavy women.

Google Tanya Song. Rare but they do exist. And that's beside the point, it's fantasy and all characters are purposely over exaggerated.

 

[Nexxis]

So, name me what games offended you recently and why?

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

Divinity: Dragon Commander. A complete blank slate main character and you can't pick their gender? Furthermore, you have to marry a princess in it and deal with her problems or whatever? Why can't we pick the gender like for Divinity 2: Ego Dragonis and have the game work around that? I was kind of looking forward to the game, mostly because of the dragons, but not if I have to wear a man suit to play it.

These are the most recent ones. Other than that, I've had my face buried in Guild Wars 2, where I can play as a charr, fully decked out in heavy armor, wielding a greatsword, hacking and slashing at enemies while openly mocking them.... because that's fun.

Might I recommend Odin's Sphere to you if you have a PS2 then? Great game with that artstyle and non of the female PC's have large breasts. Only notable character in that game with big breasts is Odette, the queen of the dead.

Awww, I don't have a PS2, unfortunately, but it looks pretty cool. The monsters look amazing. Some of the look of the characters still rubs me the wrong way, but not quite as bad as Dragon' Crown, at least.

That's because men aren't trying to read those books in the first place where as women are trying to play video games. That's why you don't hear them complain about it. However, I've seen them try to bring up argument to make it seem like they have "problems" the same way that women do. You usually see them in threads where men have to do something that women don't and people are grabbing at air trying to call it sexist for whatever reason. Things from putting down toilet seats to cutting off hair in the military (which was recent). People just have to get over that fact that chicks play video games and they want to see more than T & A or see their gender reduced to trophies. We want to be badass too, you know.

Those of us who reads these types of stories don't have a problem with it, because it's fantasy. It's okay to have this ideal male to cater to what ever needs you want. There is nothing wrong with that. Hell it's not even a big deal to us, we just find it confusing that the ideal female, or the sexualize female is suddenly a problem.

I think women are just tired of seeing it. While people are highly aware of the erotica novels, the only time I've seen that content in other media is usually as a parody or a spoof. Something to laugh at. The sexualized or ideal women, however, shows up in other media mostly as a norm usually played straight. Kind of like saying the ideal guy is a silly thought, but the ideal women is what's considered normal. I think that women are just getting tired of seeing it. It's kind of like some guys are starting to get tired of seeing the tough, grizzled, marine type guy all the time (at least that has been brought up in threads multiple times).

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Not on that frame, she doesn't, unless they were purchased. And even then she's in for some serious back problems. Heavy breasts are traditionally found on correspondingly heavy women.

Also, it's possible to be a heterosexual man and still be embarrassed by the juvenile fixation the industry has on elephantine breasts. It's also possible to be a heterosexual man and prefer smaller breasts.

Hold on. I thought I understood that comment when he made it, but was he assuming that I was a guy not wanting to see huge boobs and naked chicks?

 

[generals3]

Got a huge number of "those games" in the connect-3 puzzlers? No? Great, that's already hundreds of games to play. Racing games? No? Great, another few hundreds perfectly good games that don't exhibit such trends. Real-time strategy? Looks pretty decent, moving on. Tower defense? Also not that problematic. Cover-based shooters? Whoa there, why am I mostly stuck with dudes as protagonists? Now these games need some work and some extra variety, let's start here.

Are you saying we should't complain because plenty of games exist that don't have some of the problems mentioned here and else where?

Considering many who complain rely on the "it's not that it exists but the frequency to which it occurs which is problematic"-argument. Yes, I think that would be a fair point.

 

[Vegosiux]

Got a huge number of "those games" in the connect-3 puzzlers? No? Great, that's already hundreds of games to play. Racing games? No? Great, another few hundreds perfectly good games that don't exhibit such trends. Real-time strategy? Looks pretty decent, moving on. Tower defense? Also not that problematic. Cover-based shooters? Whoa there, why am I mostly stuck with dudes as protagonists? Now these games need some work and some extra variety, let's start here.

Are you saying we should't complain because plenty of games exist that don't have some of the problems mentioned here and else where?

No, I'm, among other things, saying it's both easier and more likely to achieve results if you first look at where the problems are prevalent. I also said that nobody has yet shown just how prevalent this problem actually is on the "videogame industry" level.

I honestly have no idea how my post in any way inferred what you just asked.