Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Carpenter]

It's a known thing. That's why on sites with product review from customers, with equal number of positive and negative reviews, you know most of buyers were satisfied. If customer is satisfied there is no urge to go and praise the product unless it overshot our expectations by far. But if it failed it's off to customer support immediately.

Actually, this is a fallacy. If equal numbers of people wrote both positive and negative things about a product, then it tells you most people were unsatisfied. People like commenting on things they enjoy, that's why on most online polls and youtube videos, the response in the majority is positive or in favor. If large numbers of people are mobilizing to comment on how bad a product or service is, it means that they were so frustrated and annoyed that they felt impelled to write about it and comment on it.

What? People like commenting on things that annoy them or that make them angry so you can kind of switch that around. People that love a game, despite what you may think, spend more time playing that game than commenting online about it.

 

[carnex]

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So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

 

[Norithics]

So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

Would you like to rephrase that into a complete thought?

 

[Amaror]

So the stories people told to each other were of men really spectacular protecting a woman. Besides every one has someone they love, so everyone can relate to the scenario of having to rescue their loved one. It's simply the default story.

That hurt to read. In addition to being a gross oversimplification, it's only true if you have a very selective view of cultural stories.

Here.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/
Enrich your life. You'll find what you described there, but so very much more.

Of course it's an oversimplification. You get that i was talking about LAZY writing, right?
I know i could have phrased my post waaay better. It's not the best story we told, it's not the only story we told, but it is a story that, at least of the ones i know, has always been told. There are way more and better stories out there. Ranging from the mythology of different cultures to stories of today, but this one has always been used at least once at some point.
Because it is an easy story to tell and an easy story to get at least a little bit of engagement from your listeners.
My post was not meant to insult the great writers and storytellers of our past, but to explain why the "Hero saves victim" story gets always used by lazy writers.

 

[Verlander]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

 

[Milanezi]

Simple but true: there is FEMINISM and that's ok, as a matter of fact I'm for it, and then there's "feminism" as in "men opening a door for women is saying that they are too fragile to do it for themselves" which is the trolling version of feminism and that's not ok anywhere it only leads to rage talk, people talking nonsense and the true fems getting a bad name.

 

[prpshrt]

No.

I want to play videogames.

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment.

Take your soapbox, for whatever purpose, however valid or petty your complaints, and take it somewhere where it doesn't impact my unrelated hobby.

This. I play video games to get away from the bullcrap. In games like Dota 2, I'm the sort of person that wont swear at people but, I will start yelling if they're intentionally fucking up. At that point I don't care if the person is white, green, blue, male, female, transgender, or an amorphous blob.

 

[carnex]

So we are back to "it's only sexist when men do it" or rather in this case "it's only sexist when it's made for men"

Would you like to rephrase that into a complete thought?

I tought you could conclude the meaning from your own writing. My bad. Gave you too much credit (just poking back)

You are complaining about skimpy dressed females and female characters that are there for solely males. And in games and other media for females males are treated the same way. We are not complaining. Just like most females don't. Only small percentage do, just like some males complain about Mr. Perfects.

So, if females want equlity it's all good. Actually curving one side would be going against equality.

 

[carnex]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

And I pointed out this again and again. Men take sexuality and sexual content much, MUCH more casually then women. We are actually different and see things differently.

 

[Fleaman]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

Yes but by this logic female characters in predominantly male mediums shouldn't exist at all. Why is her being sexually titillating for the predominantly male viewership any different from her having cool powers because the viewership likes super-powered fights? It isn't... unless you mark sex as something demeaning or dirty. I don't see what is so evil about liking sexual titillation, especially if real women dressing skimpily isn't something to be looked down on.

 

[Norithics]

I know i could have phrased my post waaay better. It's not the best story we told, it's not the only story we told, but it is a story that, at least of the ones i know, has always been told. There are way more and better stories out there. Ranging from the mythology of different cultures to stories of today, but this one has always been used at least once at some point.

Oh, alright. Fair dinkum. Still, if you haven't read it, you totally should; it's a fantastic supplement to storytelling on the reading and writing end.

I tought you could conclude the meaning from your own writing. My bad. Gave you too much credit (just poking back)

Not really, considering you never referenced anything I actually wrote, but what you appear to have pretended I wrote.

You are complaining about skimpy dressed females and female characters that are there for solely males. And in games and other media for females males are treated the same way. We are not complaining. Just like most females don't. Only small percentage do, just like some males complain about Mr. Perfects.

I'm not complaining about their existence at all. In fact, to your possible dismay, I love both the scantily-clad women and the men- I draw both on the regular. What I'm complaining about is the fact that scantily-clad women are thrown out cynically and half-assedly for the purpose of broadening the base for more of those demographic dollars. Which is stupid, because as Smeatza demonstrated, this is so widespread we're all completely numb to it by now anyway to the point of its invisibility. As a writer I hate that it's the default because it's never handled believably (it takes a certain kind of person to put their cans out there on display), and as an artist I dislike it because it's always done so poorly. If you're gonna do it, do it well, don't insult us with low-poly chainmail bikinis just because. If they did it with style, it would be acceptable, but it's more often than not a tonally dissonant "let's just throw this in there" that takes away opportunities for deeper possibilities in favor of a lazy crutch.

 

[kenu12345]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

Yes but by this logic female characters in predominantly male mediums shouldn't exist at all. Why is her being sexually titillating for the predominantly male viewership any different from her having cool powers because the viewership likes super-powered fights? It isn't... unless you mark sex as something demeaning or dirty. I don't see what is so evil about liking sexual titillation, especially if real women dressing skimpily isn't something to be looked down on.

Maybe cause while men may like to watch that; females wouldn't. That and thats not what the show or comic was really about so it pointless. You can' say you would be completly comfortable watching something you like then all of a sudden gay sex to appeal to females when it doesnt at all fit in with the show

 

[Catrixa]

That's not the issue. It's not "should women and gaming mix" so your homosexuality thing isn't really a decent comparison.

Well, I wrote the thing he's quoting, so I'll answer: The comparison I'm making is this:

In the OP, KissingSunlight wrote:

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

He then went on to talk about women demanding equality in gaming, as though his original situation was a woman wrongfully standing up for the rights of women. I posited that the woman was trying to insult the man who killed her (and had no way of knowing her gender) to make up for her own lack of skill (as do many other people online). I realize this is probably a bad analogy, but the point I wanted to make is: why must we legitimize every insult? Had she said "fuckwad" instead of "sexist," would this have been noteworthy? She picked a sensitive issue because of it's sensitive nature. She abused a hot button because it existed. Hell, I hear all the time that people solicit sex from women online because it will push buttons and women should just ignore it. It's not sexual harassment then, it's just an insult. So, in this case, why is some random woman online speaking for all of feminism and embodying all of its ideals, so much so that we're discussing the merits of people expressing specific opinions?

I'd also love to ask why just talking about this is making mountains out of molehills, why the word "sexist" is insulting, and why some trash talk is supposed to be ok, but other trash talk is not supposed to be ok, but I'll settle for what I've got.

 

[carnex]

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Ahhh, so it's professional chuff. Never the less, result is the same. Also, if you clicked on your name it would take you to the post i refered to. i dislike tons of references when there is more elegant way of doing things.

1) Just because it's lazy writing, doesn?t mean that it's bad or that it does something bad. 50 shades of Gray adn Twilight sold truckloads. As kid I enjoyed NINJA monthly novel which is nothing but lazy violence and sex, just like girls and women enjoy their romance novels which are same thing just for female audience.

2) In games often you don't want more story than you actually must have. It gets in the way of the game (again, Duck Tales Remastered is perfect example where cutting out 90% of story would make much better game). And when you do that you often go for lowest common heartstring puller, women in danger because we are, I believe, biologically preordained to want to protect woman.

3) Even if we disregards both of those, why are games so special? Every other medium does that. It's not like games invented it, or that it's major theme in gaming.

4) Censorship, self imposed or forced upon is always bad. As I said, I never saw game that fights against slavery, but I saw many where gathering slaves is optional or even part of the road to goal.

5) Men take sexuality and mildly sexual visuals much more casually. We like what we see and move on unless we are really horny for it for some reason. Males and females differ, one sould take that into account too.

 

[Nexxis]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

And I pointed out this again and again. Men take sexuality and sexual content much, MUCH more casually then women. We are actually different and see things differently.

That's because men aren't trying to read those books in the first place where as women are trying to play video games. That's why you don't hear them complain about it. However, I've seen them try to bring up argument to make it seem like they have "problems" the same way that women do. You usually see them in threads where men have to do something that women don't and people are grabbing at air trying to call it sexist for whatever reason. Things from putting down toilet seats to cutting off hair in the military (which was recent). People just have to get over that fact that chicks play video games and they want to see more than T & A or see their gender reduced to trophies. We want to be badass too, you know.

 

[carnex]

That's because men aren't trying to read those books in the first place where as women are trying to play video games. That's why you don't hear them complain about it. However, I've seen them try to bring up argument to make it seem like they have "problems" the same way that women do. You usually see them in threads where men have to do something that women don't and people are grabbing at air trying to call it sexist for whatever reason. Things from putting down toilet seats to cutting off hair in the military (which was recent). People just have to get over that fact that chicks play video games and they want to see more than T & A or see their gender reduced to trophies. We want to be badass too, you know.

If MEN don't read those books, how about WOMEN don't play those games. Seems fair to me. You can't claim one is not for you but it's ALL for us. That's nothing close to equality.

And don't start with real life comparison, we are going to derail conversation.