Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[jehk]

That's because men aren't trying to read those books in the first place where as women are trying to play video games. That's why you don't hear them complain about it. However, I've seen them try to bring up argument to make it seem like they have "problems" the same way that women do. You usually see them in threads where men have to do something that women don't and people are grabbing at air trying to call it sexist for whatever reason. Things from putting down toilet seats to cutting off hair in the military (which was recent). People just have to get over that fact that chicks play video games and they want to see more than T & A or see their gender reduced to trophies. We want to be badass too, you know.

If MEN don't read those books, how about WOMEN don't play those games. Seems fair to me. You can't claim one is not for you but it's ALL for us. That's nothing close to equality.

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

 

[Bruce]

The question isn't whether feminism should be part of gaming - it is actually whether you think games should be art.

Because if you want games to be art, then topics like feminism that you are not entirely comfortable with, have a place in it. Artists often aim to take people out of their comfort zones, to make people examine ideas and themes.

Of course it can also be about presenting something that is just plain pretty, the softer emotions are worth expressing but it is the freedom to say some pretty controversial things that makes it art.

We don't say feminism has no place in painting, we don't say it has no place in poetry, we don't say it has no place in movies - because these are arts and art is about expressing things. That includes putting arguments forward.

And if you don't want games to be art, well then don't expect them to be taken seriouslyeither, because then they cannot handle serious topics. The things that make you uncomfortable are the things that actually matter - and if we can't have those in games, well enjoy your kiddy medium.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

There's a simple explanation for this. A woman posing for your titillation should be thought about differently from a woman posing for your titillation who was illustrated, by a man. If Starfire wants to languish about in a bikini and have emotionless sex with all her team mates, that would be totally cool if she existed. But since she doesn't, she isn't expressing her sexual liberation; she's expressing the male 18-34 demographic's wet dream about her sexual liberation.

Yes but by this logic female characters in predominantly male mediums shouldn't exist at all. Why is her being sexually titillating for the predominantly male viewership any different from her having cool powers because the viewership likes super-powered fights? It isn't... unless you mark sex as something demeaning or dirty. I don't see what is so evil about liking sexual titillation, especially if real women dressing skimpily isn't something to be looked down on.

Maybe cause while men may like to watch that; females wouldn't. That and thats not what the show or comic was really about so it pointless. You can' say you would be completly comfortable watching something you like then all of a sudden gay sex to appeal to females when it doesnt at all fit in with the show

There's this thing called "demographics". Basically the idea that you should try to appeal to the groups that are most likely to watch your show. Fans of comics an superheroes are predominantly male. So they add sexual titillation that appeals to that group.you don't have to like it, but not having the same tastes as the majority of fans of a franchise isn't some great injustice and it isn't oppression. Straight men wouldn't be in the right if they demanded romance novels catered more to their tastes. Fans of grand strategy games wouldn't be in the right if they demanded starcraft and the like force you to manage relationships with your units or have them rebel. Similarly, feminists aren't in the right for demanding that skimpy outfits be removed from comics, games ect because straight women don't like them. Of course if a large part of a certain audience dislikes a aspect of a show, they are free to complain, and since the studio wants to pander to what the viewership wants they may well change it to appeal to the market. But don't frame it as some kind of oppression or great moral crusade. As for being ok with gay sex in games, most media isn't near that explicit. But I don't mind a little eye-candy for the female viewers. Have some attractive shirtless men in it. I wouldn't complain. Especially if said shirtless scene was in something with a mostly female audience. Twilight is a alright example of this. I apologize if the typing is poor, a Escapist video ad is taking up half my typing box. Again. Edit: fixed typing mistakes. Though oral crusade instead of moral crusade is a interesting one.

 

[carnex]

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

Or maybe you think that they should be allowed to go everywhere they wantand set ground rules. Well, I say that if males are willing to give them space for themselves, they are not entitled to go where males want to be alone as long as spaces are roughly equal. Even in Victorian Britain women protested against clubs for gentlemen with often outrageous claims while having female only clubs whenever they asked for one. Now, if they didn't have that space, I would understand you, but that is not the case.

After all we are all for equality. or are we?

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that picture (if you agree with it, or what), but it's not very good. In the cartoon it never said that she doesn't like fit men, more that bulky men in nerd culture are examples of male fantasy. This is obviously true - they appear in titles aimed at men, with even more heavily objectified women in it. I mean, that's not really even up for discussion, is it? Secondly, the images on the front of those books aren't indicative of the stories inside them. The men in those books aren't the same men that grace the cover. Thirdly, those books are erotica, not games. Erotic media specifically idealises both sexes, but more importantly, is specifically designed for sexual gratification - unlike gaming, which nevertheless reduces the role of women to "sex object" or "prize".

Sorry if I've just made a point that you were trying to make yourself, but stupid images like that wind me up

And I pointed out this again and again. Men take sexuality and sexual content much, MUCH more casually then women. We are actually different and see things differently.

That's because men aren't trying to read those books in the first place where as women are trying to play video games. That's why you don't hear them complain about it. However, I've seen them try to bring up argument to make it seem like they have "problems" the same way that women do. You usually see them in threads where men have to do something that women don't and people are grabbing at air trying to call it sexist for whatever reason. Things from putting down toilet seats to cutting off hair in the military (which was recent). People just have to get over that fact that chicks play video games and they want to see more than T & A or see their gender reduced to trophies. We want to be badass too, you know.

Most of the skimpily dressed characters are also hyper skilled warriors. Women in gaming already are badass.

 

[Nexxis]

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

Yeah. I think you misread what I said. I said they AREN'T, not that they SHOULDN'T. Also, if we want to do comparisons, Justin Beiber is a very small percentage of the music industry, yet that hasn't stopped a crapton of guys from constantly complaining about it. The percentage isn't the problem. It's the exposure. That small percentage of games tend to get the most exposure tend to have problems that feminism wants to address.

 

[jehk]

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

You're missing the point. The reason men don't read those novels is because they have plenty of other options to turn to. Those novels don't represent a significant portion of available books. The kind of books men want to read are being made.

A growing number of women don't feel the same way about games.

 

[Norithics]

4) Censorship, self imposed or forced upon is always bad.

Censorship, perhaps. But discretion? Not at all. Allow me to explain.

If you are an artist of any kind, you've probably gone through the cycles of confidence and self-criticism. It's an unrelenting and demanding part of the psyche that continually tears apart what you do and forces you to try harder. It's so hard to please that it's very easy to fall into what's called 'stagnation.' This is where you continue to do something easy/familiar in order to continue drawing and keep those positive reinforcement vibes coming. The problem with this is that you never improve while you're stagnating, because you never challenge yourself.

Now to return back to this example, here we have an industry full of people, predominantly male, who are stagnating on this point. Rescue the hot chick, take down the end boss, roll credits. Nobody challenged it forever because, of course, predominantly male. Well, recently some consumers (decidedly female ones) have decided they'd like a little more of what the industry has to offer than what's on the plate. As a result, norms are being challenged, and because the dialogue is happening so much and so loudly, those creative types are just a scoche more self-conscious than before... which means they're more thoughtful about it. This is good for everybody. It means more variety in experiences in an industry that everybody complains is largely samey and dull. And that's the bottom line.

5) Men take sexuality and mildly sexual visuals much more casually. We like what we see and move on unless we are really horny for it for some reason. Males and females differ, one sould take that into account too.

This is not actually strictly true. Or rather, it's true, but only conditionally. If there is plenty of 'visual stimulus' to be had in the first place, men are quite casual about it. However, if you make it uncommon, then it becomes a much bigger deal. It also depends on how much the male in question actually engages sexually- the more he does, the more discriminating and the less impressed he becomes. This works in reverse going the other way. Very 'village chief' stuff.

 

[carnex]

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

Yeah. I think you misread what I said. I said they AREN'T, not that they SHOULDN'T. Also, if we want to do comparisons, Justin Beiber is a very small percentage of the music industry, yet that hasn't stopped a crapton of guys from constantly complaining about it. The percentage isn't the problem. It's the exposure. That small percentage of games tend to get the most exposure tend to have problems that feminism wants to address.

I really don't understand what are you saying.

And justin Bieber. I'm sick of people complaining about him, not that i even know 1 single song of his (probably heard it but neve identified it as his). People actually ***** about him because people like to hear other people ***** out him and it gets them youtuve/vimeo/whatever views and money, so the rock started rolling downhill.

So, name me what games offended you recently and why?

This. It'd be something else if you walked into a bookstore and saw those romance novels everywhere

Since they are huge sellers, they are fron and center in almost every bookstore I go to. I just go past them, casually taking a look to see if something new poped up in prime section that would interest me.

Oh, just to mention, I know how it feels to be badly represented in video games. Actually much worse than women. I'm Serbian. I love my country, our rich history and all that. And the only way we are portrayed outside 4X games is as War Criminals and Terrorists. It?s a little bit worse than being dressed in skimpy outfit...

 

[Nexxis]

Most of the skimpily dressed characters are also hyper skilled warriors. Women in gaming already are badass.

Then why can't I actually look the part? Why does my character have to look like (and move like) she's more likely to give the enemy a lap dance than to bust their skulls in. I don't care about how skilled my character is when she still looks like a sex toy.

Read the first sentence you just quoted again.

I did. And? Not all games contain that type of content (small percent does) just like not all books do.

Or maybe you think that they should be allowed to go everywhere they wantand set ground rules. Well, I say that if males are willing to give them space for themselves, they are not entitled to go where males want to be alone as long as spaces are roughly equal. Even in Victorian Britain women protested against clubs for gentlemen with often outrageous claims while having female only clubs whenever they asked for one. Now, if they didn't have that space, I would understand you, but that is not the case.

After all we are all for equality. or are we?

Wow. You completely misread what I wrote. "Aren't" isn't the same thing as "shouldn't". I said that men aren't reading those books or types of books, not that they shouldn't. If men were into that genre and wanted to see more books like that cater to them, I don't think anyone would see a problem with it, but that hasn't happened, so I can just make assumptions on it. However, I do see women (myself included) wanting to see us represented better in games and to have more reasonable female characters to play as, and yet people throw a fit about that.

 

[AngloDoom]

"Should culture be reflected in an art-form?"
Really, I imagine the question is more "Can art be created without the influence of culture?"

(This is assuming you work under the idea that videogames are art, but the point remains the same.)

Although this gentleman's (assuming you're a man from your name) view is very much:

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment...

I find it very hard to view a game which would not be influenced by the ongoing issues of the time that isn't something basically characterless and one-dimensional, like Pong, and would severely limit the direction games can go.

(Apologies Dansrage for highlighting your comment but it was just above the 'Reply' box so it was easy to pin a bullseye on.)

 

[carnex]

Wow. You completely misread what I wrote. "Aren't" isn't the same thing as "shouldn't". I said that men aren't reading those books or types of books, not that they shouldn't. If men were into that genre and wanted to see more books like that cater to them, I don't think anyone would see a problem with it, but that hasn't happened, so I can just make assumptions on it. However, I do see women (myself included) wanting to see us represented better in games and to have more reasonable female characters to play as, and yet people throw a fit about that.

But there are men who are into those things, just a minority so not really a demographic to go after. Something like women who like those games.

Most have no problem with more games for women and more female protagonists. However, most do have huge problems with censorship.

 

[Schadrach]

Yes, feminism should absolutely never show up in games. Just look at Dishonored, the sheer amount of female characters killed the game, just killed it. Or Fallout: New Vegas, I mean sheesh, why on earth does it have so many female soldiers or NPCs?

Do you believe that without feminist political ideology trying to make gaming about itself, that we would have no good female characters or something? Also, I'd be willing to be that the gender ratio on soldiers in Fallout:NV isn't 50/50 (but probably not to the same extreme as bandits in Skyrim) -- people get uncomfortable when too many of the random unimportant mooks who exist solely to be murdered are presented as female (that's why a hair less than one bandit in three is female in Skyrim).

Feminism needs to be involved in everything to a certain degree.

How's about you keep your political ideology out of my hobby unless you are creating something within the medium and that political ideology is a topic or theme you want to explore. In fact, let's apply that logic to most/all political ideologies, barring only those that directly effect the continued existence hobby itself in some fashion. Hint: Demanding that the art design of a game is somehow morally wrong because you dislike it is not an example of this.

no way they don't see a problem with all-male focus testing

That depends entirely on the target audience for the title. Here is where you quote the whole "ESA study shows nearly half of gamers are women" thing, and then I have to point out that anyone who has ever played any video game in any context for any amount of time is counted in that (so if you only play Farmvale on Facebook you count -- if you raid three nights a week in WoW [like my old guild did, I still talk to our old guild leader sometimes, she was pretty good] you equally count, and if you play CoD MP 4 hours a day or if you play Words With Friends on occasion, or if you've played Tetris once in your life you are in the same total), making it basically worthless in determining anything about the audience for any particular type of game because it isn't specific enough to say anything about the target audience for any particular title (because the people who play Words With Friends and the people who raid in WoW and the people who play nightly CoDBLOPS2 are not identical).

and developers having to fight tooth and nail just to get a female on the cover of a game;

Which was well, kinda stupid. We also don't know how necessarily true it might have been vs being used as a hype generating mechanism (especially since we'r talking about new IP late in a console cycle, Remember Me not being very good). People hate publishers anyways and gender issues are the new hot button for media attention, so games suddenly having "gender issues" problems that never seemed to be a thing in the past (not that hard to find older games with female characters on the box) when they need some hype strikes me as suspicious. Or it could just be marketing being stupid. Never underestimate the ability of marketing to be stupid (for example new coke).

'ZOMG Anita Sarkeesian blocked teh comments! That's against the First Ammendment and a YouTube video IS America!' Well I'd probably do the same if I was threatened with murder and rape and called anti-Semitic slurs because I had the audacity to make some videos. I wonder how many rape threats the guys who started the 'Tropes vs. Men' Kickstarter received? Because I bet it was zero.

1. No such thing as a "Tropes vs Men Kickstarter", though the thing I think you are talking about was an IndieGoGo project?

2. You are entirely misunderstanding AS blocking comments, and it's hilarious because you are literally just accepting the narrative that fits your needs. She initially long long ago had moderated comments, claiming she was moderating solely to block out the kinds of things you were talking about. Then someone called her out on blocking other things (like disagreement with her position that wasn't easy to disprove), and she started blocking comments on further videos. The Kickstarter video was an exception to the rule, not the way she had ever at any point previously done things.

I'd rather discuss the wage gap between sexes than how a sprite is drawn..

First, you need to define what you mean by the wage gap. Usually someone pulls out one of those 70-odd cents on the dollar numbers that is calculated in a fashion that, much like the ESA research mentioned above, utterly fails to be meaningful. That wage gap number is computed by taking the median wage for all men and the median wage for all women, dividing one by the other, and calling it a day.

Imagine you did that at a single employer, and compared two individuals. One of them works 40 hours/week, the other works 50 hours/week, and are paid the same hourly rate, with time and a half for overtime. The first employee is accordingly earning 72 cents on the second employees dollar, so that's discrimination, right? I don't think so either, but there are a ton of confounding factors not included in the unadjusted wage gap number (of which differences in overtime worked is one).

The CONSAD report looks into the hows and whys behind that unadjusted wage gap using all the available data, and computes the effects of various factors. http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

They end up having a list of factors they can't isolate from each other and a gap of ~5% after adjusting for all the ones they *could* isolate from each other. The remaining factors add up to more than 5%, but since you can't separate them entirely from all other factors, you can't simply apply them as is or you'd be double counting some of the difference.

A few other articles on the topic: http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=380 http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/09/01/cities-where-women-outearn-male-counterparts/

It's worth pointing out a very simple business argument -- if you can get away with paying women 70-odd percent of what you pay men to do exactly the same job at the same output, why wouldn't you fire every man you possibly could, hire a cheaper but equally effective woman in his place, and save 20-odd percent of your labor costs (which are usually the single biggest cost to any company)?

 

[Nexxis]

So, name me what games offended you recently and why?

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

Divinity: Dragon Commander. A complete blank slate main character and you can't pick their gender? Furthermore, you have to marry a princess in it and deal with her problems or whatever? Why can't we pick the gender like for Divinity 2: Ego Dragonis and have the game work around that? I was kind of looking forward to the game, mostly because of the dragons, but not if I have to wear a man suit to play it.

These are the most recent ones. Other than that, I've had my face buried in Guild Wars 2, where I can play as a charr, fully decked out in heavy armor, wielding a greatsword, hacking and slashing at enemies while openly mocking them.... because that's fun.

 

[carnex]

You know that in Call of Duty: Ghost there are going to be female models for multiplayer (or at least I am led to believe so)? Well I do believe that Activision is going to pay the price for that. Not because of gamers who won't buy games because "girls are weak at they have no place in military shooter". Less than 1/1000 would even complain about that. But soon after release video containing mass teabagging of female soldier will be uploaded on one of streaming sites and then everyone will run for cover as various personas start ripping fabric of internet reality apart. You know this is going to happen and I applaud Activision for their bravery to go with it.

 

[kenu12345]

You know that in Call of Duty: Ghost there are going to be female models for multiplayer (or at least I am led to believe so)? Well I do believe that Activision is going to pay the price for that. Not because of gamers who won't buy games because "girls are weak at they have no place in military shooter". Less than 1/1000 would even complain about that. But soon after release video containing mass teabagging of female soldier will be uploaded on one of streaming sites and then everyone will run for cover as various personas start ripping fabric of internet reality apart. You know this is going to happen and I applaud Activision for their bravery to go with it.

Yay for assumptions to try to justify your arguments. Those totally work!

 

[jehk]

But soon after release video containing mass teabagging of female soldier will be uploaded on one of streaming sites and then everyone will run for cover as various personas start ripping fabric of internet reality apart.

Just to clarify.. this is the reason you don't think Activison should allow a women character in CoD?

 

[Nexxis]

Wow. You completely misread what I wrote. "Aren't" isn't the same thing as "shouldn't". I said that men aren't reading those books or types of books, not that they shouldn't. If men were into that genre and wanted to see more books like that cater to them, I don't think anyone would see a problem with it, but that hasn't happened, so I can just make assumptions on it. However, I do see women (myself included) wanting to see us represented better in games and to have more reasonable female characters to play as, and yet people throw a fit about that.

But there are men who are into those things, just a minority so not really a demographic to go after. Something like women who like those games.

Most have no problem with more games for women and more female protagonists. However, most do have huge problems with censorship.

And as someone said on this thread before, no reasonable person has actively called for that, and yet people immediately run to that as an excuse to not do anything. People are asking for more, not less. They way people act sometimes, it seems like the underlying problem is that they do have a problem with more games for women and more female protagonists and justifying it with "they're actually planning to censor all of our stuff!!"

 

[carnex]

Dragon's Crown. I haven't played it. The jiggle animations on the chicks make my stomache queasy and I don't want to see partially naked chicks in suggestive poses sprawled out all over my screen. I want to check out the art styles for the monsters because those looked cool in the trailers, but not if I have to swim through that muck just to get to it.

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Divinity: Dragon Commander. A complete blank slate main character and you can't pick their gender? Furthermore, you have to marry a princess in it and deal with her problems or whatever? Why can't we pick the gender like for Divinity 2: Ego Dragonis and have the game work around that? I was kind of looking forward to the game, mostly because of the dragons, but not if I have to wear a man suit to play it.

OK, I kind of see wheere you are comming from there, but I don't agree. If I can't be male, whatever. I'll be female or not play the game. If not, they lost a customer so it's their loss. I mosr certanly would not be ofended.

These are the most recent ones. Other than that, I've had my face buried in Guild Wars 2, where I can play as a charr, fully decked out in heavy armor, wielding a greatsword, hacking and slashing at enemies while openly mocking them.... because that's fun.

Good for you. Keep busting them.