Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Bruce]

I believe feminism should stay away of games. And that for a simple reason: those who complain about it seem to not know jack about the issue. Let me elaborate: most people defend their complaints with "we're not trying to censor anything and we don't want all T&A (or whatever) to go away, we just want less". Here's the problem though, no one has ever given a percentage of the games in the industry which are actually sexist/women-unfriendly. Let me put some extra emphasis: no-one. How can someone make the claim there is too much of something if they don't know how much of said something there actually is? If you're going to act all self-righteous you better have a good case.

http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

A content analysis of images of video game characters from top-selling American gaming magazines showed male characters (83%) are more likely than female characters (62%) to be portrayed as aggressive. Female characters are more likely than male characters to be portrayed as sexualized (60% versus 1%), scantily clad (39% versus 8%) and as showing a mix of sex and aggression (39 versus 1%).

 

[carnex]

And people can direct their feedback/make requests of anyone they wish. If you ran a car manufacturer, and a statistically significant portion of the population told you they WOULD buy your car, if only it came in yellow, what would your response be?

1. Make a yellow car.
2. Say "There's lots of other yellow cars out there, why don't you go drive one of those!"

But does a statistically significant number of people complain about offensive content in their games? That is the issue. Believe if they did, many would change the game. But most games actually target different demographics. I would dare to guess that small percentage of women actually plays torture platformer like Super Meat Boy for example.

 

[Vegosiux]

A content analysis of images of video game characters from top-selling American gaming magazines showed male characters (83%) are more likely than female characters (62%) to be portrayed as aggressive. Female characters are more likely than male characters to be portrayed as sexualized (60% versus 1%), scantily clad (39% versus 8%) and as showing a mix of sex and aggression (39 versus 1%).

"Video game characters from top-selling American gaming magazines"? That sounds awkwardly worded. And again, when trying to determine a prevalence of something in a medium, you don't only look at the "best selling" stuff. If you want to talk about the entire industry, then analyze the entire industry, not just the best-sellers that make up a rather tiny part of titles available.

Or well, you can, but then I'd have to conclude there's no book to read for me around here, except for romance novels and Game of Thrones, because that's all I can get from the best-seller shelves.

 

[jehk]

No, I'm, among other things, saying it's both easier and more likely to achieve results if you first look at where the problems are prevalent.

I see but..

Do you really think that's not being done? Plenty of women have complained about specific instances in specific games. Dragon's Crown with the Sorcerers was mentioned. Call Of Duty and lack of women. For me its open world games (see GTA, Sleeping Dogs and Dead Rising) not having a women protagonist (or just one women character) I can identify with. Do I even need to mention Damsel in Distress?

 

[generals3]

I believe feminism should stay away of games. And that for a simple reason: those who complain about it seem to not know jack about the issue. Let me elaborate: most people defend their complaints with "we're not trying to censor anything and we don't want all T&A (or whatever) to go away, we just want less". Here's the problem though, no one has ever given a percentage of the games in the industry which are actually sexist/women-unfriendly. Let me put some extra emphasis: no-one. How can someone make the claim there is too much of something if they don't know how much of said something there actually is? If you're going to act all self-righteous you better have a good case.

http://www.nouspace.net/dene/475/videogames.pdf

A content analysis of images of video game characters from top-selling American gaming magazines showed male characters (83%) are more likely than female characters (62%) to be portrayed as aggressive. Female characters are more likely than male characters to be portrayed as sexualized (60% versus 1%), scantily clad (39% versus 8%) and as showing a mix of sex and aggression (39 versus 1%).

Great way to prove my point. This doesn't address my point in the slightest.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Wow. You completely misread what I wrote. "Aren't" isn't the same thing as "shouldn't". I said that men aren't reading those books or types of books, not that they shouldn't. If men were into that genre and wanted to see more books like that cater to them, I don't think anyone would see a problem with it, but that hasn't happened, so I can just make assumptions on it. However, I do see women (myself included) wanting to see us represented better in games and to have more reasonable female characters to play as, and yet people throw a fit about that.

But there are men who are into those things, just a minority so not really a demographic to go after. Something like women who like those games.

Most have no problem with more games for women and more female protagonists. However, most do have huge problems with censorship.

And as someone said on this thread before, no reasonable person has actively called for that, and yet people immediately run to that as an excuse to not do anything. People are asking for more, not less. They way people act sometimes, it seems like the underlying problem is that they do have a problem with more games for women and more female protagonists and justifying it with "they're actually planning to censor all of our stuff!!"

Unfortunately, that doesn't come off well when all some people do is ***** about the games they don't like, or the parts of a game they find unappealing (often at the expense of more positive female traits), or take the most gratuitous piece of T&A they can find and act like it's representative of the whole industry from Pokemon to Call of Duty to Grand Theft Auto to Harvest Moon. And that's the best case scenario. When non AAA games that actually do have female characters fly under the radar and sell poorly, while the complaining continues, one is left to question if you really want what you're asking for, or if it's just a cover for a different agenda.

Look, I get most (not all) of the feminist side is legit about just wanting more not taking away, but I do think it needs to take a step back and ask itself if the accusations of censorship might be due to their attitudes that are overly negative, aggressive, judgmental, nitpicky, and entitled regardless of sales demographics. I once heard it said, the quickest way for a vegetarian to get a salad in a steak house is to ask for one, not complain and moralize about the steak.

 

[carnex]

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Not on that frame, she doesn't, unless they were purchased. And even then she's in for some serious back problems. Heavy breasts are traditionally found on correspondingly heavy women.

Also, it's possible to be a heterosexual man and still be embarrassed by the juvenile fixation the industry has on elephantine breasts. It's also possible to be a heterosexual man and prefer smaller breasts.

Hold on. I thought I understood that comment when he made it, but was he assuming that I was a guy not wanting to see huge boobs and naked chicks?

Well, no. You made your case that you are female. And that point about oning your own sexuality was serious. My fiancee still has issues with any skimpier clothes in public and she is PHD in Molecular Bilogy. I'm far from adonis as anyone is but I don't give a damn. Most male don't.

 

[Vegosiux]

No, I'm, among other things, saying it's both easier and more likely to achieve results if you first look at where the problems are prevalent.

I see but..

Do you really think that's not being done? Plenty of women have complained about specific instances in specific games. Dragon Crown with the Sorcerers was mentioned. Call Of Duty and lack of owmen. For me its open world games (see GTA, Sleeping Dogs and Dead Rising) not having a women protagonist (or just one women character) I can identify with.

Those complaints are about specific instances in specific games, and not complaints about "videogame industry". That's perfectly fine.

I have no problem at all with people complaining about specific instances in specific games. Because, yes, that's how you address the issue that you see. You do not address the issue by going on and on about how something's wrong with the entire industry and how there's something sinister permeating it, especially not when the industry is so varied that half the points you're making about these specific instances, that can be entirely valid to these specific instances, don't even apply to a big chunk of the industry.

Do I even need to mention Damsel in Distress?

That one is way more complicated than "sexism problem in videogames". It's older than dirt, it's a cliche, and quite a common resort for writers who just can't think or can't be bothered to think of something better so they use a cookie-cutter instead of shaping their cookies themselves. And I also have no idea just to what degree it's actually present in videogames. I know there are games that play it straight, but I have no idea what the ratio of such games vis-a-vis the whole medium is.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But does a statistically significant number of people complain about offensive content in their games? That is the issue.

Does it matter? If it's a sufficient number of potential customers, the companies in question will respond by moving to meet the market...assuming they think they're equipped to chase those additional sales. If not, they won't.

And if you think the industry HASN'T changed to reflect complaints of this nature, you've not been gaming long.

 

[carnex]

As I said, you look at graphs and if females don't play that genre, you don't have a reason to cater to them.

 

[jehk]

Those complaints are about specific instances in specific games, and not complaints about "videogame industry". That's perfectly fine.

You don't think the video games industry has problems too? Or are you just complaining about the generalization?

That one is way more complicated than "sexism problem in videogames". It's older than dirt, it's a cliche, and quite a common resort for writers who just can't think or can't be bothered to think of something better so they use a cookie-cutter instead of shaping their cookies themselves.

So we can't complain about its use in video games?

 

[Redd the Sock]

If you ran a car manufacturer, and a statistically significant portion of the population told you they WOULD buy your car, if only it came in yellow, what would your response be?

1. Make a yellow car.
2. Say "There's lots of other yellow cars out there, why don't you go drive one of those!"

The problem is, the internet gets people to overestimate their own demographic because it's so easy for like minded people to find each other. Remember Me had the female protagonist people say the want more of, but it's also sold terribly. Companies look at stuff like this and say that no matter how loud the internet gets, sales determine what is statistically significant. I've heard it from more than one source: "If I ran my company by the internet complaints, I'd be out of business."

Point 2 actually sums it up: if people aren't buying yellow cars from someone else, why would a business have any reason to think they'd buy ones from them.

Point 1 can be a different issue due to fickle nature: ie: I said "yellow" but meant "a very specific shade of yellow". Complaints about the portrayal of women can be very valid, but also very nitpicky. Lara Crofts chest devalued a very strong female character in a lot of eyes. The new game was avoided by people due to a few second scene in a trailer and developer comment. The wrong statement, attitude, or even an optional costume can "ruin" a good female portrayal to some. And at that point, it isn't worth the effort to try and appeal to that demographic.

 

[jehk]

As I said, you look at graphs and if females don't play that genre, you don't have a reason to cater to them.

Yes, because "graphs" are magical sources of information. How do you think companies do market research? Also, have you heard of untapped markets?

 

[Nexxis]

Wow. You completely misread what I wrote. "Aren't" isn't the same thing as "shouldn't". I said that men aren't reading those books or types of books, not that they shouldn't. If men were into that genre and wanted to see more books like that cater to them, I don't think anyone would see a problem with it, but that hasn't happened, so I can just make assumptions on it. However, I do see women (myself included) wanting to see us represented better in games and to have more reasonable female characters to play as, and yet people throw a fit about that.

But there are men who are into those things, just a minority so not really a demographic to go after. Something like women who like those games.

Most have no problem with more games for women and more female protagonists. However, most do have huge problems with censorship.

And as someone said on this thread before, no reasonable person has actively called for that, and yet people immediately run to that as an excuse to not do anything. People are asking for more, not less. They way people act sometimes, it seems like the underlying problem is that they do have a problem with more games for women and more female protagonists and justifying it with "they're actually planning to censor all of our stuff!!"

Unfortunately, that doesn't come off well when all some people do is ***** about the games they don't like, or the parts of a game they find unappealing (often at the expense of more positive female traits), or take the most gratuitous piece of T&A they can find and act like it's representative of the whole industry from Pokemon to Call of Duty to Grand Theft Auto to Harvest Moon. And that's the best case scenario. When non AAA games that actually do have female characters fly under the radar and sell poorly, while the complaining continues, one is left to question if you really want what you're asking for, or if it's just a cover for a different agenda.

Look, I get most (not all) of the feminist side is legit about just wanting more not taking away, but I do think it needs to take a step back and ask itself if the accusations of censorship might be due to their attitudes that are overly negative, aggressive, judgmental, nitpicky, and entitled regardless of sales demographics. I once heard it said, the quickest way for a vegetarian to get a salad in a steak house is to ask for one, not complain and moralize about the steak.

Personally, from what I've seen, people do ask and are met with a wall of excuses of why nothing should change as they see the group that wants it as insignificant or minor. That brings out the aggressiveness since being passive doesn't seem to do anything except get to mocked and threatened except by reasonable people which seems to be uncommon. The most visible parts of the gaming community seems to want to act overly aggressive to anything that they don't agree with. Someone saying they don't like something seems to equate that they want the entire industry to be censored or heavily monitored. Same extremes are applied to people that like things in the community. Find something in a game you like that others don't? You're a fanboy in a negative sense. Dislike something in a game that is overwhelmingly praised? Prepare for the flames and insults. The gaming community appears to be a community of extremes, and the only way some people deal with it is to be extreme themselves. As a summary,to use the example you game, is's like a vegetarian asks for a salad at a steak house, but the patron immediately accuses the vegetarian of wanting meat banned from the restaurant before insulting them for what they like and demanding that they leave. Screaming match ensues.

C'mon. Own your own sexuality. My fiancee has larger breast that that sorceress. What do you think is going on when we run?

Not on that frame, she doesn't, unless they were purchased. And even then she's in for some serious back problems. Heavy breasts are traditionally found on correspondingly heavy women.

Also, it's possible to be a heterosexual man and still be embarrassed by the juvenile fixation the industry has on elephantine breasts. It's also possible to be a heterosexual man and prefer smaller breasts.

Hold on. I thought I understood that comment when he made it, but was he assuming that I was a guy not wanting to see huge boobs and naked chicks?

Well, no. You made your case that you are female. And that point about oning your own sexuality was serious. My fiancee still has issues with any skimpier clothes in public and she is PHD in Molecular Bilogy. I'm far from adonis as anyone is but I don't give a damn. Most male don't.

Oh ok, glad that was cleared up, lol. Anyway, why do I have to own my sexuality? What is my sexuality? Do you know? I don't like seeing big boobs jiggle and I don't like seeing naked women on my screen. What does that have to do with my sexuality?

 

[Vegosiux]

You don't think the video games industry has problems too? Or are you just complaining about the generalization?

Yes, the generalization is what gets my goat. And I do think the videogame industry has problems, many of them, but not all of them apply to every part of it equally. I can partially understand the grievances here, since the high profile AAA scene indeed seems to be over-saturated with sexualization both in marketing and in product, but people need to understand that's not all the videogame industry is.

So we can't complain about its use in video games?

Of course we can, but we need to understand that it's a more complex thing than it simply being "sexist", end of story. Oh, and I do wish we'd see a few more dudes in distress as well, last one I really remember was Atton Rand.

 

[jehk]

If you ran a car manufacturer, and a statistically significant portion of the population told you they WOULD buy your car, if only it came in yellow, what would your response be?

1. Make a yellow car.
2. Say "There's lots of other yellow cars out there, why don't you go drive one of those!"

The problem is, the internet gets people to overestimate their own demographic because it's so easy for like minded people to find each other. Remember Me had the female protagonist people say the want more of, but it's also sold terribly. Companies look at stuff like this and say that no matter how loud the internet gets, sales determine what is statistically significant. I've heard it from more than one source: "If I ran my company by the internet complaints, I'd be out of business."

Point 2 actually sums it up: if people aren't buying yellow cars from someone else, why would a business have any reason to think they'd buy ones from them.

Point 1 can be a different issue due to fickle nature: ie: I said "yellow" but meant "a very specific shade of yellow". Complaints about the portrayal of women can be very valid, but also very nitpicky. Lara Crofts chest devalued a very strong female character in a lot of eyes. The new game was avoided by people due to a few second scene in a trailer and developer comment. The wrong statement, attitude, or even an optional costume can "ruin" a good female portrayal to some. And at that point, it isn't worth the effort to try and appeal to that demographic.

Remember Me wasn't a bad game because it had a women protagonist. Market research entails a lot more than you are giving credit for. Do you really think companies don't try to figure out "why" something didn't sell.

See Dragon Age 2 for a similar example. BioWare isn't stripping gay relationships from Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The problem is, the internet gets people to overestimate their own demographic because it's so easy for like minded people to find each other.

It's a salient point, but insular communities and confirmation bias cuts both ways. We're just as likely to dismiss a complaint or viewpoint because it does not reflect our own anecdotal experience, beliefs, or social group as we are to endorse one.

Remember Me had the female protagonist people say the want more of, but it's also sold terribly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation#General_pattern

Remember Me was also a terrible game.

Point 1 can be a different issue due to fickle nature: ie: I said "yellow" but meant "a very specific shade of yellow". Complaints about the portrayal of women can be very valid, but also very nitpicky. Lara Crofts chest devalued a very strong female character in a lot of eyes. The new game was avoided by people due to a few second scene in a trailer and developer comment. The wrong statement, attitude, or even an optional costume can "ruin" a good female portrayal to some. And at that point, it isn't worth the effort to try and appeal to that demographic.

There's some truth to this, but there are plenty of games that get the "feminism seal of approval" without trying very hard, or making the fact their character is female virtually the entire selling point of the game and the sole focus of their marketing campaign. You can sell to a demographic without necessarily having to PANDER to them.

1. PANDERING - Our game has a black astronaut who is also a doctor and the world's greatest living genius. Here is a sequence where he saves 11,000 puppies.
2. NORMAL - Our game has a well written black character.
3. BAD - Our game has blackface. Don't give us that look, we're just appealing to the demographic that enjoys blackface. There's no pleasing everyone!

EDIT - Upon re-reading this, the original Lara Croft was NEVER a strong character. She barely qualified as a "character" at all, being a mere one notch above silent placeholders like Gordon Freeman in terms of fleshing out.

 

[Ruzinus]

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

This is the Fallacy of Relative Privation [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation].

Read up. Think it over. Come back when you've got something better.

That fallacy centers around unrelated issues, and it centers around discussion.

So it applies to say, "Don't worry about your homework, worry about starving children in Africa."

But it doesn't apply to, "Should we spend money feeding starving children in Africa, or feeding starving children in our own country?"

When issues are related, say the glass ceiling and Princess Peach, it doesn't apply. For if we were to break the glass ceiling, the Princess Peach issue would solve itself by simply having more high powered women in the relevant workplaces.